efg loan default

[georgej123]

thnks bricklayer, sent you a pm

 

[georgej123]

here is the mesage i sent to Anna - open to all to share their views and help


Hi,
So I took an EFG last year of 130k and have since been paying the interest etc.
the repayments are due to start and the business is making a loss.
I also owe approx 100k to the person i bought the business from (which he's very flexible with) and happy to help, my only sticking situation is the efg which my wife and i have where we also signed personal guarantees.
I want to know what options i have in delaying, or if the worst came, how i can maybe set up a repayment plan etc
I am also trying to sell my business as part of this but that just takes some time!

 

[Bricklayer]

George123,

how did they sell it to you regarding personal liability also did they take a charge on assets etc. What bank was it?
I've got my AM for Wales on the case who will be sending info over the Guto Bebb MP so if can send me your contact detail email address pm me with it so i can forward it on.

They need to know numbers of business's that have been mistreated with the EFG to asess how widespread it is and also who is doing it?

 

[Angered Leon]

Well, received a response from Freedom of Information request BIS......apparently according to them they hold no signed documents between LLoyds bank our our company, yet we have a copy of a signed EFG loan application

Bit confused now, was wondering if anybody can lead me in right direction

We have been pursued for the full outstanding balance by Lloyds as we signed PG, sent a letter of complaint to stall proceedings, stating we been mislead in the understanding that we owe 25% of the loan as we had paid the quarterley premiums to BIS to cover the 75% should the business fail...still awaiting their response.

My concern at the moment is that we have been paying these premiums to BIS yet they hold no documents

Determined to fight this, not be manipulated by the bank
Any advice would be extremely helpful

 

[Bricklayer]

Leon, not sure if you've sent me your details but pm me your email address and i've send you my AM's contact details who is now looking into the efg's with the Welsh Assembly Government with Guto Bebb MP being given the evidence. Guto Bebb MP is a high profile MP who features in most debates about both RBS and the banks actions against sme's

 

[Angered Leon]

Hi Bricklayer

Will not let me pm you

 

[Bricklayer]

Strange Leon i've pm'd my details through, let me know if it doesn't come through

 

[Bricklayer]

News at Last!

after a long meeting last week having forwarded my case details to my Assembly Minister for Wales its just been confirmed that he is taking the cases to both the UK Government and to Guto Bebb MP who has been spearheading the fight in the UK Parliament on Bank miss-selling to business customers.

This miss-selling and abuse of the EFG is widely known but little reported however this will change soon. Although my AM cannot deal with individual cases unless you're a constituent in North Wales what he can do is include your issues in his referrals and also give you details of who to contact for further help.

I've given my AM enough cases for him to feel the abuse isn't isolated its widespread! PM me if you want my AM's details for your case to be included in his submission.

If you have issues with your banks use of the EFG now is the time to act.

 

[Bricklayer]

EFG Up and coming Publicity

Just been confirmed both the Times and Radio 4 are looking to do pieces on the EFG miss selling!!

If you have issues and want to get even with your bank now is the time to act!!!

Either google Hawkmoor Associates or contact me or post but either way its current its now and its going to be exposed!!

 

[Bricklayer]

1st February 2014

Its in the Times EFG Loan Row "is the next miss selling scandal"

Quote "Times Money would like to hear from other small business owners who feel they may have been wrongly sold an EFG loan. They should contact [email protected]"

Here's the link http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/money/consumeraffairs/article3991866.ece

 

[Bricklayer]

Also in the Financial Times its getting out there

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ee465a20-88f6-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2s33J99iJ

 

[10032012]

Well, received a response from Freedom of Information request BIS......apparently according to them they hold no signed documents between LLoyds bank our our company, yet we have a copy of a signed EFG loan application

The bank seems to have screwed you...

Under EFG, lenders are entitled to take security, including personal guarantees. This is standard commercial practice and an established mechanism for ensuring a degree of personal commitment to repayment of the loan by the business. In EFG this means there is a three-way risk sharing between borrower, lender and the government.

When taking security, lenders are required to apply their normal commercial policies in determining the extent and value of security available. The exception from normal commercial practice is that lenders are expressly prohibited from taking a charge over a principal private residence for an EFG facility. A personal guarantee should not be taken or attributed, solely or preferentially to cover the 25% of the EFG loan not covered by the government guarantee. The borrower is liable for repayment of 100% of the loan.

https://www.gov.uk/understanding-the-enterprise-finance-guarantee (might be time sensitive so back when you got the loan might have been different)

It is tricky to understand fully. I take it to mean that the PG is for 100% - with the Government guaranteeing 75% behind the scenes.

The 3 way risk sharing is the issue. The lender has default risk burden, it is for them to pursue both the Government and yourself to pass the buck to recover cash. Assumingly, the bank didn't file the paperwork so the Government wont guarantee the 75%... the big scam of this scheme is everyone assumes they only need security for 25%, but from my understanding (without reading any agreement) your PG is for 100% and would only get reduced to 25% if the Government chooses to guarantee the 75% on a case by case basis rather than automatically for all applications under the named scheme in good faith.

The government manages around £160 billion for welfare payments a year... why on earth can they not set up a scheme to distribute a couple of billion pounds to small businesses without having to do it through banks? The loans can then be directly linked to important aspects of the economy such as employment and be drip fed in instalments conditionally on meeting targets. If the borrower fails to meet the targets, they get no further monies and the outstanding loan amount is much easier to repay.

 

[Bricklayer]

It all seems straight forward enough?

Except this link seems to back up most directors understanding on the 25%

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmberr/uc588-i/uc58802.htm

P Ibbetson Chairman of RBS small business Q71 seems simple enough to me on the pg's?

 

[10032012]

If 25% is being put by the banks, 75% is being underwritten by the Government but the business owner has to provide 100%, it sort of raises the question as to whether there is that guarantee there or not.

Q76 Mr Hoyle: So you have no limit. If I have got it right, RBS/Nat West, 25% and you do not ask for any more; you can go up to 100%. Mr Cooper?

Mr Cooper: Similar: we treat every single case on its own merits.

Q77 Mr Hoyle: So you have no limit either; you will pull a loan and expect 100% guarantee?

Mr Cooper: It could be zero; it could be 100% - it depends on the circumstances.

Q78 Mr Hoyle: So your maximum is 100%, yet one is 25%. Why have you got differentials?

Mr Ibbetson: Exceptionally, we could give you under 25%, but the normal policy we have is 25%. I think the view we take is these are unsupported guarantees. It actually does not matter that much whether it is 100% or 25%; they are unsupported, and the rationale for having them there is to ensure that the directors share the risk with the bank, the Government and the taxpayer, which is the right place to be. Exceptionally, if those directors have no other commitments into the business we may say: "Actually, we need you at 100%", but we actually think the message that is put over by having 25% meets the need.

 

[Bricklayer]

Exactly its easy to see how this can be abused by the banks.

In my case I've got a letter from Nat West-RBS stating my liability is 25% however they go on to say they cannot find any evidence to substantiate my claim!!

The biggest mistake they have made though is asking me to remove assets from my A & L statement in order for the RBS to obtain the guarantee! SFO & CID investigating fraud fingers crossed it leads to charges??

So far The Times, The Financial Times and the Mail on Sunday have all done pieces on the EFG miss selling scandal this weekend so its gaining momentum.

 

[Bricklayer]

Latest update with RBS on my EFG

RBS must be worried! last Monday had confirmation that they will not be relying on my PG's and have released me from them personally?

Persistence pays off we've all been claiming the at the banks advised us we'd only ever be liable for 25% yet the bank have said I'm not liable for any of it! (£100k)

Why would they do that I wonder? maybe because my case was so watertight they thought that by releasing me from the debt personally I'd go away!! not a chance.

Has this happened to any one else recently or are the bank calling upon your pg's either way let me know if you can

 

[Alan R Price]

Congratulations! Your tenacity has clearly borne fruit.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thanks Alan,

just knew i was right.

My company went into liquidation last December but my liquidators are prepared to fund taking the RBS to court to sue them so there's much more to come!

The SFO are now investigating RBS so hopefully charges will be brought soon! Watch this space?

 

[Alan R Price]

Very interesting. Did RBS sell you interest-rate swap products as well?

Out of curiosity, could you PM me details of the liquidators. I may know them.

 

[Betsy & Parker]

There is certainly a softening of RBS's approach to the 25% issue. I have disputed my case through FOS and they quickly agreed to the 25% value rather than the full PG. As discussed by the other posters, its all about not backing down and not giving up. I personally am three years into this dispute and have now put the dispute onto the Ombudsman rather than the initial adjudicator's review.

I have thrown a number of other miss-selling issues into the dispute such as life assurance which might also be worth exploring as they are not a requirement of the EFG loan.

I guess with losses of £8Bn and all of their wider woes, they might want a quick, clean break which could work in all of our favours.

 

[Bricklayer]

Hello Betsy & Parker,

but is it right that you have to find the 25% to give to RBS yet RBS in my case aren't claiming any of the pg?

In RBS's case we're all either liable for the full amount, 25% or nothing they can't make up their own rules and ruin peoples lives chasing them into the ground?

RBS must have thought I'd give up if they released my pg's but to me its them admitting liability so its going all the way through the courts.

The best break for RBS is to break it up and start again as its rotten to the core..right from the top.

Lets keep fighting!!

 

[Betsy & Parker]

Hi Bricklayer,

My case is a bit complicated - but then I guess all of them are. I'm happy to discuss offline if you want to text me your email to 07871 956 223.

 

[Bricklayer]

Anyone with issues over their EFG loans may want to contact Bolt Burdon Solicitors on the link below

http://www.boltburdon.co.uk/busines...s-selling/enterprise-finance-guarantee-loans/

 

[havehadenough]

Hello,

do you know these solicitors as its just that I did seek advice from another one who had been suggested on this forum and it was of no benefit whatsoever but did cost.

many thanks

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm using Bolt Burdon to assess a particular part of my complaint however as its now classed as mis selling I'd have thought that these along with others will give initial advice FOC.

If you google EFG Mis selling a number of firm appear that say they specialise in reclaiming monies for mis selling EFG's.

I've had contact with someone this week who's had a ruling in his case by the FOS that they'd only be liable for 25% something that's of great interest to us all I think?

Didn't the FOS in your case say you'd be liable for the full amount?

 

[havehadenough]

hello,

yes that's right. They took it to court too and obtained a CCJ but I don't think EFG is mentioned anywhere in the court papers its a ' business loan'. The CCJ is for the full amount and they then wrote and said we were liable for the 100% after we complained. They then went and claimed under the insurance for 75%.

It just seems incredulous that some people are being pursued to ill health for 100% and others are being released ( although this is clearly a positive for those). Even only paying the 25% would have been acceptable as that's as it was sold. The FOS didn't uphold the complaint mind so its back to appeal etc etc etc and the effort goes on.
I am interested to hear if anyone else is dealing with LLoyds.

 

[havehadenough]

The one thing we need is advice regarding getting the CCJ set aside. Clearly its for a much greater sum than is owed as they claimed a huge part of it. The bank have never advised of this either we only found out by FOI request.

 

[havehadenough]

Oh and sorry to go on but what makes it worse is a sum in excess of the 25% had been offered as settlement but the bank refused. Went to court for the full amount. And then claimed the 75% within months.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is why I think you need to obtain legal advice over this a clearly something's not right.
How can some get away with 25% some pay full or even more incredulous in my case nothing? I've a very strong case for mis selling with it all backed up in writing so they sought to buy me off. Not a chance!

speak to each and every one of the companies saying they specialise in the EFg mis selling if you are on twitter I'm @efgbricklayer but there is someone on there called efgmisselling but contact everyone to get the best advice without paying for it at the start.

If I can I can try to help you with the advice but I can only go from my experience as I'm not a lawyer just a bricklayer!

 

[Bricklayer]

havehadenough,

I've spoken to Andy Keats from Serious Banking Complaints Bureau and he's really keen to help you.

His mobile is 07787 800436 email [email protected]

Tell him you've been intouch with Clive and he'll know its about the EFG's.

Anyone else who's interested can contact Andy as this mis selling scandal cannot be allowed to carry on destroying peoples lives?

 

[Angered Leon]

Hi All...been a while since I posted but been awaiting a response from FOC for our complaint against LLoyds for mis-selling EFG as well as enforcing life cover and changing business bank accounts.....surprise surprise the Adjudicator has found in favour of Lloyds as we signed PG...we are now preparing letters to take to the actual Ombudsmen..............facts are not been looked at

Bricklayer...good on you for being so pursuant of this EFG misselling-its appalling ruining lives

Keep the information and advice flowing, gives us all hope

 

[havehadenough]

Hello,

I'm sorry you haven't been heard but am interested as we too have been mis sold by Lloyds. The ombudsman didn't uphold our complaint but we are appealing.

Lloyds do not seem to be getting as much publicity as RBS sadly and I still cannot grasp how some of us are pursued to court despite reasonable offers to pay, and in excess of the supposed 25% whilst others are not. Don't get me wrong I am very pleased for those who are being released from this or informed they owe 25% I truly am and I know there are still profound effects from the banks behaviour

Good luck with your complaint.

 

[Bricklayer]

Both Lloyds & RBS are Govt bailed out banks making the abuse of the scheme so much worse.
What we need to be doing is saying if we've all had an EFG paid the 2% "insurance premium" how come
a) The bank have released me from my pg's and are not coming after me for a penny
b) The FOS have ruled in favour of another at RBS and have told RBS that they can only come after them for 25%
c) In Lloyd's cases they not only expect 100% of the business but they are also getting 75% off the government!

We've all paid into the same scheme we were all told that we'd only be personally liable for the 25% in the event of default yet from the above something's clearly not right?

I've knocked on every door and had help from many some of whom I've posted their details but in the end its down to us to get justice...I did inpart although my case is ongoing against RBS but made much easier by their actions to release me!

I'm working with Andy Keats from Serious Banking Complaints Bureau and as such would urge everyone to contact him with your case details.

A single strand can be cut easily but entwine 5 then 10 then 15 the rope becomes much harder to cut...this is what we have to do?

The FOS to me aren't worth the time spent contacting as they rarely side against the bank but I do know of one case but he's not prepared to go public which is a shame.

We need to prove the EFG scheme has been widely abused by the banks but the publicity from the govt bailed out banks is even more damaging!

 

[Bricklayer]

Hello Thanks for your post,

in my case the bank after me having mountains of evidence released me from my pg completely without having a penny from me nor have they contacted the liquidators so a statement all les than 8 weeks after appointing the liquidators?

Is this usual given your post about calling in the pg? I've got the evidence for being mis sold the EFG on the basis that I'd only be liable for 25% yet because it was obtained fraudulently by RBS I'm now all of a sudden not liable for any of it!

 

[Bricklayer]

Has anyone got any updates on how their EFG complaints are going?

 

[stressedout]

I'm new to this thread. Background info - My husband signed a PG for an EFG back in 2009. Sadly the company went into administration. A typical case of miss-selling by RBS that everyone has talked about. Not just one but two corporate managers told us that he would only be liable for 25% of the outstanding balance if it defaulted yet they are pursing him for 100% The letter of demand was sent to him back in Aug 2012 & I was under the impression that they had to claim off the DTI 18 months after? We involved IBAS but they were little help - reems of letters questioning which PG the bank were relying upon (2 were being mentioned). But RBS never really answered. Then we got a solicitor involved so IBAS would not help. Our solicitor has written several times to RBS questioning the actions of the bank re miss-selling and no response since last June! until today. We have had no answers, they have totally ignored all correspondence just another demand for payment. All we have is our home. We do not have any spare income. When you look into it further it appears though they cannot take the main family residence to repay, (which is in joint names). Like most, we are at our wits end with all this. Any advice?

 

[Bricklayer]

Hello stressedout,

we've all been through the mill with this one!!

Here's a couple of things you could do if you've not already

• Bin IBAS they just want your membership fee's
• Contact Andy Keats SBCB who will work with your solicitor
• Contact the BIS and apply under the freedom of information act for the file on the EFG that RBS completed to the company and also to ask whether the RBs have applied under the guarantee for the 75%
• Complain to the RBS
• contact the FOS

With the pg's were they just for the EFG or did they cover other facilities. did they use the EFG to repay off any of the overdraft.
The FOs have ruled recently that as they could not be sure on how RBS sold the EFG to someone so they instructed them to only pursue the 25%
Were you involved with the company or did you have shares?
They can't go straight for your house but they can go around the back door and try to get a charge on your house after ccj's etc.. what has your solicitor said?
I've fought RBS so much so that they've released my pg's by saying I didn't have an EFG I had a SFLG!!
I'm meeting their (RBS's) MD & Head of legal in the houses of parliament next month about my case and the mis selling of the EFG on exactly your point...it was sold as:- the company was liable for the full amount however any shortfall on default would be made up between the 75% dti & 25% directors liability.
PM me if you want to discuss

 

[quaerito]

Hi bricklayer and all
Thanks for your continuing energy enthusiasm (and success) on this battle ! Inspiring ..

Sadly (or thankfully) we are working too hard to give our substantial EFG difficulty any attention .. BUT threats of raising a complaint for mis-selling seem to have silenced HSBC's threats and demands to force a sale of the family home !

Will try and refocus in the coming days ..

Expect a phone call ;o)) Keep smilin' ...

 

[Bricklayer]

Hello quaerito,

its a fight i'll be glad to put behind me but its one that i will win on that i've no doubt!

Everyone on the posts say the were told that they'd only be laible for 25% personallly yet the banks deny this which is mis selling at its worst as the sting comes in the tail when you default.

From my limited experience its best to be the biggest pain to the banks i constantly email them, challenge them and to RBS i'm a pain in the backside!!

For me the turning point (1 of many!) was a couple of weeks ago when Clifford Chance sent me the record of the interview which they carried out and went on to whitewash RBS of any wrong doing but they also sent the banks report.

The bank has spent 2 yrs denying ever saying that my pg's would be reduced to suit the 25% of the EFG yet it was in writing on the won report that they gave Clifford Chance! Their head of customer complaints had written in Aug 12 to my MP refuting ever saying this yet it was there in writing. My MP wrote to RBS and now we're having a meeting in Westminster its one thing lying to a brickie but RBS lying to an MP!

It'd be great to catch up on the phone...i'll look forward to it.

It hard but i'll try to get smiling & battling!!

 

[whataday]

Hello this is my first ever forum post on any subject unfortunately its happened to be on this subject, I honestly believe I have been miss sold EFG loan, I have been reading all the post on this tread and until accidently falling on to this page on the search engine was going to give in to Lloyds. I strongly argued to the recovering department the information given to me by my bank manager is so different to what I was getting from their department.
Back in Feb I had to make the decision of giving up my business due to struggling financially and so arranged a meeting with my bank manager only for her to re-assure us that we will only be paying 25% and the rest will be recovered only not the case. I'm so confused of what is correct and not, going against big lenders like Lloyds is scary and I really do not know where to start. From a 40K loan, I have 26K left to repay.
Just a quick thank you to you all on this forum without it I wouldn't even consider fighting this the information here is a starting point, I will try if I don't succeed at least I can say I've at least tried.
Good Luck to all fight this very miss-sold product, one think I don't understand is if we were paying a premium every quarter but it seems of no use to either myself or the bank then why were we advised to pay!! what was the point of the EFG loan if the bank advisor bluntly stated she is not going to claim as I am liable for the 100% of the remaining loan, so confusing!!
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.