E Bay regard "delivered to an address" as the customer receiving the item.

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
Lucan Unlordly said : The question now is do you claim against Ebay or the Seller?
The seller, I think. According to @fisicx Ebay states that delivery is the responsibility of the seller.
Lucan is right in a way.
Even if it is defn the sellers fault, how do I actually get him to face up to his responsibilities ?
Therefore if E Bay want to generate confidence in their buying platform, they should get involved.
 
Upvote 0

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
But….
The package was delivered. Maybe not in accordance with how it should have been but the terms were met. The seller has evidence of delivery so is claiming they have fulfilled the contract. The driver should not have left the parcel so you could claim against evri. But the claim can only be made by the seller as they are the ones who paid for the service.
It’s a mess of which there is unlikely to be a satisfactory solution.
EBay’s terms are very clear about signatures. They are only required for items valued over £450.
Facts are important in a case like this. Getting angry and making unsubstantiated claims won’t solve anything.
As it happens the seller did not fulfil his part of the contract anyway, he did not use RM as he stated, in writing, that he would.
 
Upvote 0

fisicx

Moderator
Sep 12, 2006
46,817
8
15,453
Aldershot
www.aerin.co.uk
As it happens the seller did not fulfil his part of the contract anyway, he did not use RM as he stated, in writing, that he would.
So what do you plan to do? Take them to court? Do a money claim? The cost of getting your £82 back could be higher than the compensation. The argument over RM/evri may hold some sway but you need to read the terms carefully. There are clause covering alternate means.
 
Upvote 0

stokes89

Free Member
Sep 22, 2022
27
6
I definitely see your frustration as I wouldn't be happy to be told well its not my issue now, as that is really bad customer service which I think has frustrated you.

The way I see it now is your report it stolen online and get a crime reference number. Then put a claim in to your bank, credit card etc as they for you to provide evidence.

Your contract is with the seller overall. You have no contract with the courier as you didn't use them, you didn't sign their terms and conditions, this is what I belive anyway.

Contact the seller again with the crime reference also and ask for them to send it to evri to etc, also send to dispute with bank. BUT you may have already burned bridges with them if you have starting being rude and arrogant and then I would ignore you to.

That it wasn't send by RM 48, email eBay to just to see if that helps your case. You were not expecting that though you actually didn't care how it would arrive in the first place except that it would.

I definitely agree with what Jeremy says about delivery services now. The customer expects everything but doesn't want to pay.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin Smith
Upvote 0

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
I definitely see your frustration as I wouldn't be happy to be told well its not my issue now, as that is really bad customer service which I think has frustrated you.

The way I see it now is your report it stolen online and get a crime reference number. Then put a claim in to your bank, credit card etc as they for you to provide evidence.

Your contract is with the seller overall. You have no contract with the courier as you didn't use them, you didn't sign their terms and conditions, this is what I belive anyway.

Contact the seller again with the crime reference also and ask for them to send it to evri to etc, also send to dispute with bank. BUT you may have already burned bridges with them if you have starting being rude and arrogant and then I would ignore you to.

That it wasn't send by RM 48, email eBay to just to see if that helps your case. You were not expecting that though you actually didn't care how it would arrive in the first place except that it would.

I definitely agree with what Jeremy says about delivery services now. The customer expects everything but doesn't want to pay.
I am pursuing a case through my bank, your idea of a crime reference number is excellent. I should have done that but it may be too late now.
I am not expecting anything from the seller, he has made his attitude quite plain, it's either E Bay or the bank forcing the issue.
 
Upvote 0

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
Nope. Too many thieving buyers in online retail.
I have been in mail order for nearly 20 years. In all that time I cannot say for sure that anything has been stolen or the customer tried to pull a fast one. Possibly once, but even that was not certain. This may partly be because of the type of business we are, and the type of website we have, and the fact customers are dealing directly with us (a small business). I think people are less likely to try and diddle a small business they deal with direct, it somehow seems worse to many.
In fact in all the years we have done mail order there are hardly any customers I would not be happy to deal with again. Maybe it's partly just luck, but I like to think it's also exceptional customer service, and we always try to under promise and over deliver.
 
Upvote 0

stokes89

Free Member
Sep 22, 2022
27
6
I am pursuing a case through my bank, your idea of a crime reference number is excellent. I should have done that but it may be too late now.
I am not expecting anything from the seller, he has made his attitude quite plain, it's either E Bay or the bank forcing the issue.
The bank may ask for more evidence as have with me when claiming against a company once before. Just report it, get the number and send it over. If it has been stolen and you haven't reported it I would be shocked if the bank do refund without it being reported.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin Smith
Upvote 0

fisicx

Moderator
Sep 12, 2006
46,817
8
15,453
Aldershot
www.aerin.co.uk
I am pursuing a case through my bank, your idea of a crime reference number is excellent. I should have done that but it may be too late now.
I am not expecting anything from the seller, he has made his attitude quite plain, it's either E Bay or the bank forcing the issue.
You can claim under section 75 for amounts over £100 if you have been misrepresented. Chargebacks are for faulty goods. Your bank may not be able to help.
 
Upvote 0

stokes89

Free Member
Sep 22, 2022
27
6
You can claim under section 75 for amounts over £100 if you have been misrepresented. Chargebacks are for faulty goods. Your bank may not be able to help.
This is correct as my chargeback was for over £100 but it was for non delivery not faulty goods, its not just faulty goods.

Justin's goods were delivered but stolen from door way if I'm correct? If so he should report it and get a crime reference. The only person he can really take to court is the theif and let's face it that's not going to happen!

I would send it all through to the bank first and hope for the best as the claim is already open.

My last action on this would be to get in contact with ebay and say it shouldnt of been evri who delivered but royail mail who should of delieved it and hope for the best.
 
Upvote 0

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
My last action on this would be to get in contact with ebay and say it shouldnt of been evri who delivered but royail mail who should of delieved it and hope for the best.
I have done that, we'll see, but I am not confident, which is a bit shocking actually because when we sold through E Bay we worked under the impression that in pretty much any dispute E Bay pretty much always came out on the side of the customer.
 
Upvote 0

fisicx

Moderator
Sep 12, 2006
46,817
8
15,453
Aldershot
www.aerin.co.uk
I have done that, we'll see, but I am not confident, which is a bit shocking actually because when we sold through E Bay we worked under the impression that in pretty much any dispute E Bay pretty much always came out on the side of the customer.
The increased number of fraudulent claims has changed how eBay resolves conflicts.

There are a lot of people who habitually claim goods never arrived. There have been many threads on UKBF on this very topic.
 
Upvote 0

stokes89

Free Member
Sep 22, 2022
27
6
I have done that, we'll see, but I am not confident, which is a bit shocking actually because when we sold through E Bay we worked under the impression that in pretty much any dispute E Bay pretty much always came out on the side of the customer.
This is exactly why I don't sell or buy on E Bay anymore, I don't like their terms & conditions and belive you are acutally accepting 3 companies, EBays, the seller & the delivery company's which probably all contradict each others either way and your never beat.

Anyway you ordered the goods and should received what you ordered either way. Good luck
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin Smith
Upvote 0

Lucan Unlordly

Free Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,989
1,001
The increased number of fraudulent claims has changed how eBay resolves conflicts.

There are a lot of people who habitually claim goods never arrived. There have been many threads on UKBF on this very topic.
What better evidence than that! The obvious reason for making such changes would be down to their knowledge of and acceptance of the lackadaisical processes of the delivering companies. 'Leave in a safe place' or acceptance of a signature that most, even the author, cannot recognise!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Justin Smith
Upvote 0

Justin Smith

Free Member
Jun 6, 2012
2,744
398
Sheffield
The increased number of fraudulent claims has changed how eBay resolves conflicts.

There are a lot of people who habitually claim goods never arrived. There have been many threads on UKBF on this very topic.
If there are people who regularly falsely clam that should become obvious and steps taken.
It is obvious this is not a false claim quite apart from anything it is a set of custom made replacement blind slats, why would I want a second set of them anyway ? ! ?
Part of the problem is the "computer says no" mentality of many businesses these days. Ironically businesses and their systems used to be more flexible before the advent of IT.
 
Upvote 0
If there are people who regularly falsely clam that should become obvious and steps taken.
It is obvious this is not a false claim quite apart from anything it is a set of custom made replacement blind slats, why would I want a second set of them anyway ? ! ?
Part of the problem is the "computer says no" mentality of many businesses these days. Ironically businesses and their systems used to be more flexible before the advent of IT.
Do you know what an idealist is?

If you want the rain, learn to live with the mud.
 
Upvote 0

fisicx

Moderator
Sep 12, 2006
46,817
8
15,453
Aldershot
www.aerin.co.uk
If there are people who regularly falsely clam that should become obvious and steps taken.
There have been. eBay now sides with the seller.

Those falsely claiming non-delivery have networks. They use friends and family and wait at empty addresses and employ all sorts of other techniques to avoid detection. They also pay people to walk up and down the streets looking for parcels left on the doorstep. It's becoming big business.

And not just parcels, food and other deliveries are also targeted.
 
Upvote 0

Newchodge

Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
    22,700
    8
    8,015
    Newcastle
    My parcel, my responsibility after delivery.
    Absolutely right. But your parcel was not delivered to you. It is the same as the couriers who allegedly leave a parcel with an unidentified neighbour - delivery has not happened and the responsibility remains with the seller.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Justin Smith
    Upvote 0
    Absolutely right. But your parcel was not delivered to you.
    It was left in a place that the driver deemed appropriate. If that's not an Evri policy, then there may be liability ... But I'd put money on it being policy.

    Edit ...

    From the Evri site: If a safe place hasn’t been chosen but there is somewhere safe to deliver the parcel, we’ll leave it there and include a photo in the delivery notification email.
     
    Upvote 0

    Newchodge

    Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
    22,700
    8
    8,015
    Newcastle
    It was left in a place that the driver deemed appropriate. If that's not an Evri policy, then there may be liability ... But I'd put money on it being policy.

    Edit ...

    From the Evri site: If a safe place hasn’t been chosen but there is somewhere safe to deliver the parcel, we’ll leave it there and include a photo in the delivery notification email.
    But the OP has no contract with Evri. Their Ts and Cs don't matter. It may mean the seller cannot claim against them, although a court would probably find that the definition is not clear enough, but does not change the seller's responsibility to the purchaser.
     
    Upvote 0

    fisicx

    Moderator
    Sep 12, 2006
    46,817
    8
    15,453
    Aldershot
    www.aerin.co.uk
    From the Evri site: If a safe place hasn’t been chosen but there is somewhere safe to deliver the parcel, we’ll leave it there and include a photo in the delivery notification email.
    I saw that the other day. Very open to interpretation as what I define as a safe place may be very different to what the evri driver thinks.

    I spoke to a local courier about this sort of thing and they said policy is not to pay compensation. They will even argue in court and generally win. Because they can always prove delivery. What happens after delivery is not their responsibility. It sucks but that's the way it is.
     
    Upvote 0

    fisicx

    Moderator
    Sep 12, 2006
    46,817
    8
    15,453
    Aldershot
    www.aerin.co.uk
    ...but does not change the seller's responsibility to the purchaser.
    This is a really difficult one to prove because the terms you agree to are for eBay. And eBay is not responsible for delivery. There is no implicit contract with the seller.

    I been through this with a purchase last year which is why I know how it all works. Or doesn't work. The parcel was left in a safe place but the local scrotes stole the box. We had them on video doing so. Still didn't get a replacement or our money back as the contract to deliver was deemed complete.
     
    Upvote 0

    Newchodge

    Moderator
  • Business Listing
    Nov 8, 2012
    22,700
    8
    8,015
    Newcastle
    This is a really difficult one to prove because the terms you agree to are for eBay. And eBay is not responsible for delivery. There is no implicit contract with the seller.

    I been through this which is why I know how it all works. Or doesn't work.
    Come off it. The purchaser has been offered delivery as part of the contract of sale. There has to be a contract for delivery and it has to be with the seller. I am appalled at how many people appear to think that contract law is optional, because couriers cannot fulfill their contracts at the prices they charge.
     
    Upvote 0

    fisicx

    Moderator
    Sep 12, 2006
    46,817
    8
    15,453
    Aldershot
    www.aerin.co.uk
    Come off it. The purchaser has been offered delivery as part of the contract of sale. There has to be a contract for delivery and it has to be with the seller. I am appalled at how many people appear to think that contract law is optional, because couriers cannot fulfill their contracts at the prices they charge.
    I edited my post. Pinning down responsibility for who is to blame means going round and round in circles. Took up the best part of a year and it still didn't get resolved.
     
    Upvote 0

    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    There have been. eBay now sides with the seller.

    Those falsely claiming non-delivery have networks. They use friends and family and wait at empty addresses and employ all sorts of other techniques to avoid detection. They also pay people to walk up and down the streets looking for parcels left on the doorstep. It's becoming big business.

    And not just parcels, food and other deliveries are also targeted.
    As LL said, all the more reason to insist on a name and a signature then.
    I have never had an item go missing when it has been signed for, never in nearly 20 years.
     
    Upvote 0

    fisicx

    Moderator
    Sep 12, 2006
    46,817
    8
    15,453
    Aldershot
    www.aerin.co.uk
    As LL said, all the more reason to insist on a name and a signature then.
    I have never had an item go missing when it has been signed for, never in nearly 20 years.
    That’s because of your customer base. Start selling desirable items and will start seeing all sorts of fraudulent activity. Even with a signature.

    There was a thread here a little while back where there was a signature, photo and video and the buyer still claimed non delivery and won.
     
    Upvote 0

    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    Exactly.
    Some people might say "Damn I had a parcel stolen, I'll make sure that can't happen again." And some people will find someone else to blame.
    Don't you go blaming me for this.

    1 - The seller sends out an £82 order with no signature, something I would never do, and I speak as someone who has been in the mail order business for nearly 20 years.

    2 - I never gave permission for my order to be left without a signature (the only time I would ever send out an order of any value unsigned for).

    3 - The seller advertises he used RM (who do not leave parcels like that in my porch, they card you instead) but actually used Evri.

    4 - The driver plainly left it in an unsafe location, proven by the fact it was stolen.

    5 - I have checked and I never got any E Mail from Evri telling me I had a parcel coming (and did I want to have it delivered at a different time ?).

    >>I'll make sure that can't happen again.<<

    I will, I'll have that front porch door locked so lazy Evri drivers cannot leave anything in there, they'll have to bring it back when we're open.
     
    Upvote 0

    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    That’s because of your customer base. Start selling desirable items and will start seeing all sorts of fraudulent activity. Even with a signature.
    You have a point there, but if I was selling desirable items I'd be even more certain to use signed for.
    I bought a printer and later a laptop from Amazon, they get round it by sending the customer a PIN code which he has to quote to the driver. before he gets his order.
     
    Upvote 0

    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    It was left in a place that the driver deemed appropriate. If that's not an Evri policy, then there may be liability ... But I'd put money on it being policy.

    Edit ...

    From the Evri site: If a safe place hasn’t been chosen but there is somewhere safe to deliver the parcel, we’ll leave it there and include a photo in the delivery notification email.
    Except it was not safe, BY DEFINITION, because, err, it got nicked.
     
    Upvote 0
    1 - The seller sends out an £82 order with no signature, something I would never do, and I speak as someone who has been in the mail order business for nearly 20 years.
    When you made this purchase, you had no idea how it was going to be sent. What you would do has no bearing on your stolen parcel.

    2 - I never gave permission for my order to be left without a signature (the only time I would ever send out an order of any value unsigned for).
    As above

    3 - The seller advertises he used RM (who do not leave parcels like that in my porch, they card you instead) but actually used Evri.
    You didn't read that at the time of purchase. You made an assumption about the delivery.

    4 - The driver plainly left it in an unsafe location, proven by the fact it was stolen.
    Left in a reasonable location as per Evri policy. It's up to you to provide a safe delivery location. I'm guessing you don't have a notice on the outer door saying 'Please do not leave parcels in the porch as they might get stolen'.

    5 - I have checked and I never got any E Mail from Evri telling me I had a parcel coming (and did I want to have it delivered at a different time ?).
    I imagine you asked the seller for a tracking number though ... right?

    I will, I'll have that front porch door locked so lazy Evri drivers cannot leave anything in there, they'll have to bring it back when we're open.
    Then I have to ask why it was left open?
     
    Upvote 0

    fisicx

    Moderator
    Sep 12, 2006
    46,817
    8
    15,453
    Aldershot
    www.aerin.co.uk
    You have a point there, but if I was selling desirable items I'd be even more certain to use signed for.
    Signed for doesn't mean the right person gets the goods.

    Someone places an order and provides a delivery address. They get their mate to be at the location (not in the house) and sign for the goods. The photo is the parcel not the person (GDPR). The person who places the order claims they didn't get the Gucci bag. The signature wasn't them and they don't know the signatory. eBay gives them their money back.

    There are umpteen tricks the scammers use to get free stuff.
     
    Upvote 0

    Nico Albrecht

    Free Member
    Business Listing
    May 2, 2017
    1,622
    473
    Belfast
    data-forensics.co.uk
    The seller advertises he used RM (who do not leave parcels like that in my porch, they card you instead) but actually used Evri.

    Hey Justin, I understand you're upset, but eBay's Terms of Service clearly state that they can change the delivery service without notice to enhance customer experience. ( I get the irony here ) It's explicitly mentioned that they have the authority to switch couriers without informing the buyer.

    When it comes to deliveries, they are directed to addresses rather than specific individuals residing at the address. Even Royal Mail Special Delivery allows anyone at the address to sign for the package; it doesn't have to be the person named on the label, as long as they occupy the address indicated.

    In the UK, there isn't a strict requirement to include names on shipments. You can address it simply to "the occupier." While including names can be helpful, delivery is generally considered successful once the package reaches the designated address, not necessarily the named individual. Additionally, Evri took a picture to provide evidence of completing the delivery.

    In the UK, many court documents are sent by first class mail without tracking or a signature, yet they are considered served and delivered. If legal documents can be delivered without these security measures, it suggests that your low-value order may not be treated differently.

    To have a strong case, you would need a contract with the seller explicitly stating that the parcel must be delivered and accepted only by the person named on the label.

    In most court cases involving low-value items, the buyer tends to lose unless the seller can prove delivery to the specified address, often through tracking, photos, or a signature. While for high-value items, leaving a package on a porch might not be acceptable in the eyes of the court, in your case, it's legally doubtful that you could win this dispute.
     
    Upvote 0

    Latest Articles

    Join UK Business Forums for free business advice