E Bay regard "delivered to an address" as the customer receiving the item.

[Justin Smith]

Here is a salutary warning for anyone buying stuff off EBay that's worth more than about £10.....

I ordered some stuff off an E Bay seller, total price about £82. The seller dispatched it all together but UNSIGNED for (on an £82 order ! ).
The Evri driver happened to call at the weekend when my shop is shut and left the parcel (quite a big one) in the UNLOCKED porch. By defintion it was unlocked because he was able to get into it ! It was also unsafe because my shop is on a busy road and right next to a fairly busy bus stop......
The parcel went missing but the seller is not prepared to do anything because he has the tracking picture of it in the porch. In my view he has a case for a dispute with the carrier but that is nothing to do with me.

I appealed to E Bay and it was rejected because :

"the tracking information provided by the seller shows that the item was successfully delivered at Sheffield South Yorkshire. As per our policy, once the item has been delivered to the buyer's address, the case will be closed."

There are four parties to this nightmare :

1 - The seller
2 - The carrier
3 - E bay
4 - Me, the buyer

The seller should not have sent out an £82 order with no signature required (almost unbelievably Evri only charge an extra 60p (sixty pence !) for a signature).
The carrier should not have left the order in an unsafe place.
E Bay should not be leaving their customers in the lurch and out of pocket.
The only one who has done nothing wrong is me, and yet I am losing £82, EIGHTY TWO POUNDS !

I will be signing up for Amazon Prime and not using E Bay again, and certainly not for anything over the value of about £10....

 

[fisicx]

What makes you think Amazon will be any different?

 

[Justin Smith]

What makes you think Amazon will be any different?

I am interested to know if they are. I am frequently told their customer service is exceptional.
I know that I, as a mail order seller, would never have :

1 - Sent out an order worth £82 unsigned for, it's appalling business practice. If the seller has done the sums and thinks that an extra 60p per order is not worth it if only say 1 in 100 go missing it should be HIM who pays up for it when it does go wrong, not the customer.

2 - I would never have treated my customer like I have been treated, it's appalling customer service. That seller deserves to go bust.
The only exception would be if the customer requested in writing that an order be "left [unsigned for] in WXYZ round the back". Than it'd be down to him.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Justin I think you would be in the same position with AP as you are now
Since the pandemic the delivery practice of just leaving it somewhere and taking a photo has become custom and practice and its appalling . It only works because there are so many parcel transactions each day the ones that go missing are only a very small percentage but that is still a large number

Your only option is only to agree to buy if a signed delivery service is used

 

[fisicx]

It’s all about the driver. Some are good some less so.

Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea. And the signed for option means nothing, as there is no verification as to who signs the tablet.

The seller has fulfilled their obligation to you as there is proof of delivery.

 

[antropy]

The seller should not have sent out an £82 order with no signature required (almost unbelievably Evri only charge an extra 60p (sixty pence !) for a signature).
The carrier should not have left the order in an unsafe place.
E Bay should not be leaving their customers in the lurch and out of pocket.
The only one who has done nothing wrong is me, and yet I am losing £82, EIGHTY TWO POUNDS !

I agree.

I think if you continue to dispute it you will get your money back eventually.

How did you pay?

Paul.

 

[IanSuth]

I agree.

I think if you continue to dispute it you will get your money back eventually.

How did you pay?

Paul.

I was going to say - if you paid by CC dispute via them

 

[DontAsk]

The seller should not have sent out with no signature required

I do that for all my UK orders, some worth way more. Haven't lost anything for years.

The real problem? The seller should not have sent out an £82 order via Evri.

 

[Mister B]

The real problem? The seller should not have sent out an £82 order via Evri.

Absolutement. We send out orders worth over £82 on an unsigned for tracked service, but never, ever with Evri.

We find that you get what you pay for and although some of their couriers are good, a fair few are crap.

As a customer, if a retailer states that delivery is made with Everi, I find it to be a barrier to purchase and invariably click away.

 

[Justin Smith]

I agree.
I think if you continue to dispute it you will get your money back eventually.
How did you pay?
Paul.

I paid with a debit card but the bank appear to offer a dispute facility with the transaction which I have started.

 

[Justin Smith]

Absolutement. We send out orders worth over £82 on an unsigned for tracked service, but never, ever with Evri.
We find that you get what you pay for and although some of their couriers are good, a fair few are crap.
As a customer, if a retailer states that delivery is made with Everi, I find it to be a barrier to purchase and invariably click away.

We never send any item over about £50 unsigned for, and even that is sent RM tracked on delivery.
Basically a mail order business should never send out any order unsigned for that it is not prepared to cover the cost of if there's a problem. It's as simple as that really.

 

[Nick@Daydot]

I am interested to know if they are. I am frequently told their customer service is exceptional.
I know that I, as a mail order seller, would never have :

1 - Sent out an order worth £82 unsigned for, it's appalling business practice. If the seller has done the sums and thinks that an extra 60p per order is not worth it if only say 1 in 100 go missing it should be HIM who pays up for it when it does go wrong, not the customer.

2 - I would never have treated my customer like I have been treated, it's appalling customer service. That seller deserves to go bust.
The only exception would be if the customer requested in writing that an order be "left [unsigned for] in WXYZ round the back". Than it'd be down to him.

Hi Justin, whilst I agree with your sentiments don't let them derail you from focusing on the legalities and Ts&Cs. Too often what 'ought' to be isn't what 'is'.

FWIW Amazon once left a parcel on the roof of my car on the drive in the pouring rain rather than bring it to the door. It was only because the app said it had been delivered that I went to look.

 

[Justin Smith]

It’s all about the driver. Some are good some less so.

Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea. And the signed for option means nothing, as there is no verification as to who signs the tablet.

The seller has fulfilled their obligation to you as there is proof of delivery.

>>It’s all about the driver. Some are good some less so.<<

I would agree, with the proviso that it is still mainly the sellers fault. One assumes the driver thought the order can;t be worth that much if it's sent unsigned for.....

>>Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea.<<

In the hours parcels are delivered there is someone at the shop far more than at my home.

>>And the signed for option means nothing, as there is no verification as to who signs the tablet.<<

That is not our experience. We get very few missing orders anyway, but, from memory, none that required a signature. The name the driver asks for) is probably more important than the actual signature. Quiet often we'll get a customer phoning where is my order, then when we tell them who has signed for it, it's "oh yes, I know where it will be".
The fact remains that the driver could not have left it without a signature, unless he signed it himself and forged it completely, but the obvious question then would be : why is it in the unlocked porch and not in the locked hallway ?

>>The seller has fulfilled their obligation to you as there is proof of delivery.<<

Legally is arguable as I never got it. Not did any of my staff or the tenants upstairs. It was never in my property, as in the locked side of my property.
Morally there is no question about it, the seller has NOT fulfilled their obligation to me. Not by a long way. His service is so **** he deserves to go bust.

 

[fisicx]

You misunderstand the whole signature thing. All the signature does is show someone at that address received the item. It doesn’t certify the correct person received the item.

 

[Justin Smith]

You misunderstand the whole signature thing. All the signature does is show someone at that address received the item. It doesn’t certify the correct person received the item.

As it happens, in this instance, that would have been fine. He would not have been able to deliver it and then brought it back on Monday when the shop would have been open....

 

[Mister B]

Although I disagree with your sentiment that everything over £50 should require a signature, I do agree that the retailer should take ownership of the issue and be pro active in resolving the problem. Not to do so, is poor customer service.

As an aside, we order plenty off Amazon, and many a time goods far in excess of the £50 threshold are delivered without any signature requirement. The only time we are asked to sign, or with an access code, is if it's a highly desirable piece of kit. So, the fact that they quite often don't require a signature is a statement in itself.

 

[Justin Smith]

Although I disagree with your sentiment that everything over £50 should require a signature, I do agree that the retailer should take ownership of the issue and be pro active in resolving the problem. Not to do so, is poor customer service.

As an aside, we order plenty off Amazon, and many a time goods far in excess of the £50 threshold are delivered without any signature requirement. The only time we are asked to sign, or with an access code, is if it's a highly desirable piece of kit. So, the fact that they quite often don't require a signature is a statement in itself.

Maybe I should qualify what I meant. A seller should only send out stuff NOT signed for if he is prepared to cover its loss without any hassle.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

You misunderstand the whole signature thing. All the signature does is show someone at that address received the item. It doesn’t certify the correct person received the item.

Good point in all my days I have never heard of a court case where a signature has influenced a delivery dispute

 

[DontAsk]

>>Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea.<<

In the hours parcels are delivered there is someone at the shop far more than at my home.

What hours are those? RM and Parcel force re using hire vans at all sorts of odd hours around here.

>>And the signed for option means nothing, as there is no verification as to who signs the tablet.<<

The fact remains that the driver could not have left it without a signature, unless he signed it himself

RM do that, and have done for years. Maybe if they think they know the addressee well enough, but it happens.

 

[fisicx]

Maybe I should qualify what I meant. A seller should only send out stuff NOT signed for if he is prepared to cover its loss without any hassle.

So if random person signs for a £1000 laptop and does a runner it’s all ok?

A signature means nothing. It offers no more protection than no signature.

Best option is home delivery to a safe place.

 

[fisicx]

As it happens, in this instance, that would have been fine. He would not have been able to deliver it and then brought it back on Monday when the shop would have been open....

Or at 9pm on Monday when it’s not open.

Or got the bloke next door to sign for it who then claims he didn’t.

I do understand your frustration but it’s not the fault of the seller.

 

[Justin Smith]

>>Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea.<<
Justin Smith said:
In the hours parcels are delivered there is someone at the shop far more than at my home.

What hours are those? RM and Parcel force re using hire vans at all sorts of odd hours around here.
RM do that, and have done for years. Maybe if they think they know the addressee well enough, but it happens.

9.15 to 5.00 Mon to Friday.
I accept that having a delivery is always a bit of a PITA. Our carriers, DX Express, theoretically attempt delivery three times before returning it to the sender. It'd be pretty unlucky for them to try and deliver three times to our shop all out of hours. But entirely possible they might do so to our house !
Maybe I give the drivers a bit more credit for intelligence than they deserve, but I assume they see "ATV" as the delivery address and know they will only be open during "shop hours" !

 

[Justin Smith]

Or at 9pm on Monday when it’s not open.

Or got the bloke next door to sign for it who then claims he didn’t.

I do understand your frustration but it’s not the fault of the seller.

We will have to agree to disagree there, in fact I blame him even more than the driver.
Personally I think it's his fault for two reasons :

1 - Sending out an £85 order with no signature when he is not prepared to cover it if it goes missing.

2 - He has appalling customer service, and I am not expecting him to do anything I do not do myself.
Good customer service would be him sending me another order (with a signature req delivery) then HIM taking it up with the carrier, and he would have had a good case as the driver left the parcel in an unlocked porch straight out onto the pavement of a busy road right next to a fairly busy bus stop.

 

[fisicx]

How is it the fault of the seller? They have no control over where the driver leaves the package. You chose the delivery location. You should know that deliveries take place at odd hours.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

>>Arranging delivery to your shop when it was likely to be closed was not a good idea.<<
Justin Smith said:
In the hours parcels are delivered there is someone at the shop far more than at my home.

9.15 to 5.00 Mon to Friday.
I accept that having a delivery is always a bit of a PITA. Our carriers, DX Express, theoretically attempt delivery three times before returning it to the sender. It'd be pretty unlucky for them to try and deliver three times to our shop all out of hours. But entirely possible they might do so to our house !
Maybe I give the drivers a bit more credit for intelligence than they deserve, but I assume they see "ATV" as the delivery address and know they will only be open during "shop hours" !

If it is good practice to expect your delivery in business hours you are not doing yourself any favours by opening at 915 and shutting 5 . You would get no support from me if they delivered at 905 or 1715
This is a subject that has been a problem since the conception of the cheap parcel services
People want everything delivered cheap but they have no business complaining when it is delivered in business hours when they are shut
This was an issue that I was fighting against when we were running vans on the parcel routes back in the day long before the invention of the internet
You people on here really do over look the fact that you are getting what you are paying for using the parcel services

 

[fisicx]

Maybe I give the drivers a bit more credit for intelligence than they deserve, but I assume they see "ATV" as the delivery address and know they will only be open during "shop hours" !

They get paid pennies per delivery. If they don’t deliver they don’t get paid. Leaving a box in a doorway means they get paid.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

- Sending out an £85 order with no signature when he is not prepared to cover it if it goes missing.

Why, Ebay TOS's no req. for low value orders up to £450 to have a signature, tracking only. You accepted TOS.

HIM taking it up with the carrier, and he would have had a good case as the driver left the parcel in an unlocked porch straight out onto the pavement of a busy road right next to a fairly busy bus stop.

I believe it could be eBay, given that the label was obtained through their service, and they may have distinct terms, now under Evri instead of Herpes.

Here's my suggestion for taking responsibility:

1. You received a tracking number and delivery date from Herpes; a simple reschedule for Monday on their website could have resolved the issue. Additionally, a delivery notification from Herpes minutes after delivery could have prompted a quick trip to pick up the parcel, instead of waiting, hoping it wouldn't be missing, and expressing dissatisfaction here.
2. 
   Upon making the purchase, you were given information about the postage service the sellers utilized, and we are all aware of the unpredictable nature of deliveries under Evri. It's a wild ride at best. Moreover, you consented to eBay's terms of service.
   Keep in mind that items frequently go missing, and even with a signature, it may not prevent such occurrences.

At this stage nobody gives a shit about your £85 parcels and your obsession with a signature for low value items.

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin Smith said : Personally I think it's his [the sellers fault] fault for two reasons :

1 - Sending out an £85 order with no signature when he is not prepared to cover it if it goes missing.

2 - He has appalling customer service, and I am not expecting him to do anything I do not do myself.
Good customer service would be him sending me another order (with a signature req delivery) then HIM taking it up with the carrier, and he would have had a good case as the driver left the parcel in an unlocked porch straight out onto the pavement of a busy road right next to a fairly busy bus stop.

How is it the fault of the seller? They have no control over where the driver leaves the package. You chose the delivery location. You should know that deliveries take place at odd hours.

>>They have no control over where the driver leaves the package<<

Yes they do ! They can require a signature (for a grand total of 60p extra on his costs....).

 

[Justin Smith]

If it is good practice to expect your delivery in business hours you are not doing yourself any favours by opening at 915 and shutting 5 . You would get no support from me if they delivered at 905 or 1715
This is a subject that has been a problem since the conception of the cheap parcel services
People want everything delivered cheap but they have no business complaining when it is delivered in business hours when they are shut
This was an issue that I was fighting against when we were running vans on the parcel routes back in the day long before the invention of the internet
You people on here really do over look the fact that you are getting what you are paying for using the parcel services

I can only repeat that DX (our present carrier) and APC and TNT and FedEx (our previous carriers) would - theoretically - all call round three times before returning the item to the sender.
There is almost no chance that all three of those three times would be outside the standard working day. And, since they generally use the same driver each day for each round, he would know after the first time it was shop with standard working hours.
The issue here is that the seller did not require a signature so the driver did not have to come back.

 

[fisicx]

They could get a signature from a bloke at the bus stop and still leave it in the doorway.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I dont think you should expect the driver to not deliver if the shop is closed
The driver or sub contractors agreement is to deliver what's on their route.
If it is on their route that day then it is deliverable and non negotiable

As @fisicx has said they dont get paid if it goes back and for the money that's in it why should they be doing customers any favours. On top of running around for nothing for 12 to 14 hours a day

Its a mugs game

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I can only repeat that DX (our present carrier) and APC and TNT and FedEx (our previous carriers) would - theoretically - all call round three times before returning the item to the sender.
There is almost no chance that all three of those three times would be outside the standard working day. And, since they generally use the same driver each day for each round, he would know after the first time it was shop with standard working hours.
The issue here is that the seller did not require a signature so the driver did not have to come back.

That's comparing a Mec with a KIa

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin Smith said:
- Sending out an £85 order with no signature when he is not prepared to cover it if it goes missing.

Why, Ebay TOS's no req. for low value orders up to £450 to have a signature, tracking only. You accepted TOS.

I am not talking about EBay small print, I am talking about good business practice and good customer service.
That useless Birmingham Blinds seller has ended up with bad feedback though, unlike me and my business, I doubt he feels guilty about what has happened. If it were me and that happened to one of my customers I'd be personally upset by it.
He deserves to go bust, and I hope he does. And I'd put him out of business if I could, he doesn't deserve to be in business with his attitude.

Interesting sidelight here.
The seller had 98.5% good feedback and I had forgotten a golden rule I learnt years ago on the E Bay forum (when A N Other seller refused to change a wooden point that had warped in only 4 months....) :

98.5% positive feedback is not 100%, there's a big difference.

Thinks about it, how many steps the customer has to go through, and how annoyed he must be, to put on negative feedback. Nearly 1 in 50 of his customer are so displeased with his service they give him negative feedback..... Any decent seller would rectify pretty much any issue to keep his 100% feedback score. Not this one, In fact he's so unconcerned he sends out an £82 order with no signature required just to save 60p.
When we sold on E Bay we had 100% positive feedback, and there was a good reason for that.

 

[Justin Smith]

I dont think you should expect the driver to not deliver if the shop is closed
The driver or sub contractors agreement is to deliver what's on their route.
If it is on their route that day then it is deliverable and non negotiable

As @fisicx has said they dont get paid if it goes back and for the money that's in it why should they be doing customers any favours. On top of running around for nothing for 12 to 14 hours a day

Its a mugs game

But if it requires a signature he has to redeliver it. That's the whole point, and, the reason (the extra time it sometimes takes) I assume, why Evri charge extra for it.

 

[Justin Smith]

They could get a signature from a bloke at the bus stop and still leave it in the doorway.

We've been through that. How would he explain the fact it was on the outside of a locked door ?
In the real world the driver would have come back on Monday, end of problem

 

[fisicx]

We've been through that. How would he explain the fact it was on the outside of a locked door ?
In the real world the driver would have come back on Monday, end of problem

But if it requires a signature he has to redeliver it. That's the whole point, and, the reason (the extra time it sometimes takes) I assume, why Evri charge extra for it.

He doesn't have to explain anything. The signature just records that a delivery has been made not where the package was left.

He wouldn't come back on Monday. He only gets paid for deliveries. He delivered; he gets paid.

Returning to the depot means someone else will get the money (drivers don't get the same routes each time).

No matter how you argue it you got the service you paid for. As @Nico Albrecht said: you accepted the eBay TOS which do not require a signature for a low cost item. £82 is low cost.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I'm going to back it up as well once again

There is nothing to explain ,the driver fulfilled their part of the contract with the parcel company
You just wont accept the fact that the driver did nothing wrong

Here or she got rid of it and that's all they have to do under the agreement with that company

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

You people on here really do over look the fact that you are getting what you are paying for using the parcel services

A little unfair - we pay what the couriers charge us for a service they don't always deliver. We paid for 2 Friday AM deliveries which didn't arrive, expecting them to turn up on the Saturday called to confirm but no, was told they'd be there the next business day - Monday. Covered our backsides by resending order for Saturday AM. Didn't arrive.

They get paid pennies per delivery. If they don’t deliver they don’t get paid. Leaving a box in a doorway means they get paid.

DPD driver getting paid £2.25 a parcel round here.

Bit of a thread hijack here but hopefully better than starting a new thread, and I may have asked this before but........

Should or could the delivery companies be penalised/prosecuted, hung drawn and quartered for non delivery when they issue text messages and online tracking, yet fail to turn up?

Example: Message received on Saturday morning, delivery (due Monday) to arrive 'today' at 1pm. I leave a family function, drive to unit to take in. Countdown of text messages, your driver 'Scarlet Pimpernel' will be with you in 45 minutes, 30 minutes, 10 minutes, your next...............sorry we missed you with photograph of a black hole or piece of concrete!
This has happened 6 times in 18 months. I feel they have an obligation to either stop sending Monday deliveries on Saturday. I've asked, they take no notice. Or stop making false promises.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

Example: Message received on Saturday morning, delivery (due Monday) to arrive 'today' at 1pm. I leave a family function, drive to unit to take in. Countdown of text messages, your driver 'Scarlet Pimpernel' will be with you in 45 minutes, 30 minutes, 10 minutes, your next...............sorry we missed you with photograph of a black hole or piece of concrete!
This has happened 6 times in 18 months. I feel they have an obligation to either stop sending Monday deliveries on Saturday. I've asked, they take no notice. Or stop making false promises.

Sounds like Amazon delivery service to a business address on a weekend or during the week after 5pm. Status goes from out for delivery to missed you as soon as the driver noticed it is a business address and comes close to your destination. Had that plenty of times before. Solution was simple. Amazon delivery on the weekend to my house and take it with me to work. Since then never missed a single delivery.

It all comes down to pricing and personally if you want a top notch service and guaranteed delivery with drivers that care you would be easily over £20 for a small parcel within the UK. Most consumers wont pay that or think that is expensive.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Sounds like Amazon delivery service to a business address on a weekend or during the week after 5pm.

Nope, DPD when the regular driver is off.

Status goes from out for delivery to missed you as soon as the driver noticed it is a business address and comes close to your destination.

That's exactly it, assuming it's a business that doesn't open on a Saturday.

No good putting a home address if it's 10 large boxes and the intended delivery day is Monday.
Saturday delivery eases the pressure on the drivers at the start of the week so we make an effort (for the regular driver) which he appreciates. It's the stand in drivers who are the culprits, one weekend leaving ourselves and 2 other businesses in the lurch.

Apart from the inconvenience, if I'm told the delivery is coming in on the Saturday I often organise myself and any help I may need for an early start Monday. The downside of a supposed 'you weren't in' delivery often means that your tagged for late delivery on the Monday which messes everything up.

If it happens again I'm going to invoice the courier for time wasted.