Domain Name Help?

[ken_uk]

Then they should be stumping up the £20k to get it back IMHO!

Agreed, if as you say, they "guarenteed" you would not lose that domain, then pull them up on the guarentee.

Did you have it in writing though, as that guarentee might just vanish, and be denied if it was verbal only.....

 

[Esk247]

this cyber squatting business is really BUGGING MY HEAD!

i've said it on here before..trying to register a website for a customer to find someone else has it for no reason at all, they 'hold' it and wait for someone to come along and offer them a ridiculous price for it. or as mentioned in this instance..where as soon as a domain becomes available they snap it up and then squat on it until the owner wants to buy it back.

the whole thing should be banned. its not a business its a scam. people trawling the internet, taking note of a .co.uk domain then registering a .com and emailing you to say 'oi oi, pay me £2 million and you can have your business name in a .com'

as if running a business isn't hard enough. i wouldn't mind if they said £50 but i've seen some silly prices and they won't back down because they know its important to your business to have the other domains.

there should be a set fee for domains e.g. no more than £30 for .coms/.co.uk domains internationally.

i reckon about 10% of the worlds domains are just holding pages and are for sale at exceedingly ridiculous prices.

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Then your case needs to be with the hosting company, not the new registrant. He/She has done nothing wrong.

Putting something in the papers isn't going to help anyone - in fact you might end up causing yourself more problems, if the new registrant feels you are libelling their business

Your hosting company has lied to you - there is no 90 day window to renew the domain. You can renew a domain at any point within 6 months of the expiry date up until the 90+ days when it becomes available for registration again

I agree 100% - be very sure of your facts before making any rash allegations. You have been fed a lot of mis-information.This page tells you want happens 30 days after your domain expires - http://www.nominet.org.uk/registrants/maintain/renew/suspensionnotice/Domains are not deleted until 92 or most usually 99 days after expiry. That is longer than the 6 weeks you say the site was working.Surely if the site was that important you would have noticed your email, business etc not working properly and would have had to do something about it rather than waiting for your host to sort it out after a further 6 weeks.Stephen.

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Have you got a solicitor you can consult?

If you and the company who has purchased the domain are both in the UK, they legally cannot do what they have done. My husband works in IT and he said that he has experienced this with and helped customers in the past where they went to the intellectual property rights (even though it took 3 years) they got their domain back without having to pay anything to the people who had bought the domain as the way they bought it was the same as the people who have bought yours.

Alison

I'm afraid that's rubbish. Stephen.

 

[adam]

I like Nominets terms. Legal or not, how can it be right for people to have automatic programmes trawling the web to buy up these domains and then sell "back" at extortionate prices?

 

[cmcp]

I think it's an assumption they've used an automated system. Point is it's become available to the public, they've registered it, no foul play. Just very bad management / trust on part of the OP.

I question the selling back at £20,000. I'd be interested to know if the new owner approached the former owners or vice versa.

 

[adam]

Thanks to this post, I just checked back for http://www.vendesent.com which got nabbed in similar circumstance and was displaying ad pages unless I bought it back for silly money.

I found today that it was free again so I bought it!

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

I question the selling back at £20,000. I'd be interested to know if the new owner approached the former owners or vice versa.[/quote]

That is an important question no matter how the domain was acquired. If I had cars.co.uk (which sadly I don't) and somebody approached me to ask if I would sell then you wouldn't expect me to sell it for £5.It would be interesting to know what the domain is to actually see what its real history is. Stephen.

 

[cmcp]

And with it being acquired above board, of course you'd sell it at it's market value.

But if you acquire a name then approach a registered trademark / previous owner, surely that's acting in bad faith - and the definition of cyber squatting.

 

[Esk247]

i think cyber squatting is defined as...

Esk247.co.uk someone buys esk247.com and then THEY approach me and say 'give us loads of cash for your domain in .com then' as they are clearly doing it just to be a pest and blag money from my company.

It happens in china alot..i've got a competitor over there using Esk247 as their name and selling web design services etc. Not sure if they are still going but they were effectively squatting on esk247.something << whatever the chinese equivalent to .co.uk is.

Funny as my name is Esk from the River near my home, so i'm sure there isn't another river esk in china with a lot of shops and houses built around it.

 

[NuBlue]

this cyber squatting business is really BUGGING MY HEAD!

i've said it on here before..trying to register a website for a customer to find someone else has it for no reason at all, they 'hold' it and wait for someone to come along and offer them a ridiculous price for it. or as mentioned in this instance..where as soon as a domain becomes available they snap it up and then squat on it until the owner wants to buy it back.

I have been on the end of this before and it is frustrating but I have hatred towards the people that do it. It is no different to buying a house only to seel when the price is better, or buying land or any other investment. I hold a personal portfolio of domains, some for projects that never happened and some because I think they are good.

If you wanted one, of course i would be looking to make a profit.... that's business

 

[adam]

Let me explain the squatting element.

If I rented a shop and built a business through the name of the shop and its location to then find during a busy time someone had approached my landlord and said " I will take over the rent" and then that someone phoned me and said do you want your shop back? That would be wrong.

Like squatting in a house. You come in, sit in my house for a while (or on my domain) and then get the value of everyone who comes to my house asking for a job to be done.

Okay no law as it stands is broken as in the first part of the example, you paid my landlord the rent money but it is trading on my name and cutting me out.

Simples!

 

[cmcp]

I'm not sure that explains anything really.

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Let me explain the squatting element.

If I rented a shop and built a business through the name of the shop and its location to then find during a busy time someone had approached my landlord and said &quot; I will take over the rent&quot; and then that someone phoned me and said do you want your shop back? That would be wrong.

Like squatting in a house. You come in, sit in my house for a while (or on my domain) and then get the value of everyone who comes to my house asking for a job to be done.

Okay no law as it stands is broken as in the first part of the example, you paid my landlord the rent money but it is trading on my name and cutting me out.

Simples!

Except in this case there is no evidence that the domain name exactly matched anybody's business (from discussions elsewhere I understand it is a one-word domain pertaining to a type of food), and secondly you are very unlikely to close your shop for several months and still be in business. In this case the website/email must have been inactive for 2 months.Stephen.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Every single one of our vending machines up and down the country has had this web site on it since the mid-90's. We must have 40,000+++ (don't quote me on how many) labels out there, we have lots of correspondence which quotes this website, other organisations quote this website too .............. it has been in full use, this is why I am so shocked that it can be taken.

The little "git" who has got the website knows that it is an essential part of our information sharing for our business and has been published in many newspapers, magazines, correspondence and we are very well know for it - he was very cold and said basically "tough".

We have already registered another website and new labels have gone to print so when customers call we direct them to the new address. We are not giving up. It is an inconvenience but a hard pill to swallow.

I have had a communication now asking for £12,500!!!

My web hosting company are putting pressure on Nominet, I just hope they can help us.

Thanks for all the comments and interesting posts.

Kind regards.

Barbara

 

[ken_uk]

If I were you I would look for a specialist to do any work on trying to get the domain back, instead of relying on your hosting company, who by the sounds of things are either highly incompetent, or cowboys.

They lost the domain in the first place, despite promising not to.

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Can you tell us the domain in question then?

I still can't understand why you allowed it to be out of action so long.

Stephen.

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

My web hosting company are putting pressure on Nominet, I just hope they can help us.

Barbara

I'm afraid they are again giving you a load of bull. Nominet will not do anything you can file a dispute but if you failed to renew you have little chance online .com, .net, .org etc which when they expire its done near enough instantly .uk has a very long grace period its very annoying but its there to give the registrant time to renew. If you have failed to keep your details up to date or the host hasn't updated the info its not nominets problem.

You can go down the DSR road but you will need someone with very good legal skills to win the case and I would guess it will go to the decision board which is going to cost you a decent amount.

We are a nominet tag holder now if you had been our customer and domain was under our control we would do everything in our power to get you to renew i.e. email / postal notices and if the domain is very old we would even call you but if you ignored the renewal notices or failed to keep the details up to date that wouldn't be our problem or nominets. Again the domain would have been inactive and the website offline for a decent amount of time.

I would love to know who the host is that's giving you advice plus what the domain is.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Our website was, www.jellybeans.co.uk

The moment we found out it was out of action we contacted our web hosting company and they told us they were dealing with it, don't worry, etc, etc, etc. I haven't got a clue when it comes to computers and things technical - I am old school - lined paper pad, pencil and rubber - don't get me wrong I am not thick with computers just how they work and how this cyberspace thing happens. My husband is very competent, but there would have been nothing he could have done as we thought we had done all we could by informing our hosting company. It's a bit like relying upon our accountant to ensure our accounts are done properly and submitted on time etc - I am not a keen enthusiast on accounts either - I thought by having professionals looking after our interests things like this shouldn't happen.

I'm still very upset by all of this, why can't people go out and earn their incomes by real hard work not by submitting misery onto others!

Rant over.

Barbara

 

[cmcp]

I understand that you're upset by it but can your really not see the proportion of error that lies on your side (including the hosting company)?

 

[cmcp]

Not good

This domain has recently been purchased from Nominet for future development.
Jellybeans Jewellery Coming Soon!

So now this chap's purchased the domain fair and square, could be marketing his new site as we speak.


Answer me this - did he approach you offering to sell or did you approach him wanting to know what was going on?

 

[Vending Siting Services]

I understand that you're upset by it but can your really not see the proportion of error that lies on your side (including the hosting company)?

Yes. We just assumed that it was being looked after .... even when we chased them.

 

[cmcp]

Did the new owner approach you offering to sell, or did you approach him wanting to know what was going on?

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Not good




So now this chap's purchased the domain fair and square, could be marketing his new site as we speak.


Answer me this - did he approach you offering to sell or did you approach him wanting to know what was going on?

My hosting company approached him and he said we could have it back for £20,000.

And yes, I agree, he did buy it fair and square in the eyes of the law, but my gripe is, why was I NOT INFORMED! There is something which doesn't make sense to me. Our web hosting company have been excellent over the years and I really can't understand how something so simple could have gone so wrong. The web hosting company are really trying to help so I won't name them here as it won't solve anything.

Let this be a warning to anyone reading this thread. Check, double check and check again. Something we took for granted for nearly 20 years has now gone, albeit legally, but it could have been avoided. We'll get over it, a great amount of inconvenience, my health is good, I have a wonderful husband, lots of animals, love life, great business - at least that can't be cyber-nicked!!!

Regards.

Barbara

 

[cmcp]

So he's not really stolen it then.

And he's not made contact with you, except to reply to your queries.

What part of it doesn't make sense - Nominet will have informed the registrant. Were you the registrant or were the hosting company the registrant?

As it's been pointed out a few times here, seems like you want to be taking this up with the hosting company.

 

[ken_uk]

Will send you a PM Barbera with a little info that may be of help to whoever is trying to sort this out for you. Dont want to post it in the thread, in case the owner of the domain is reading this (which they easily could end up doing if they google the domain name)

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

The moment we found out it was out of action we contacted our web hosting company and they told us they were dealing with it, don't worry, etc, etc, etc.

Barbara

Hemmm something really doesn't sound right, if the domain was expiring why didn't the new host check on nominet's site get the registrar being used and contact them directly or in the case of the registrar gone missing, contact nominet asked them to do a transfer get you to send the relevant docs to them, within 24-48hrs job done.

Its basic domain management with .uk domain's its easy enough to find the relevant info and speak to a human to get the right advice.

If the registrant of the domain does start trading on the site inform nominet he is violating the registrant agreement, you can't hide the registrant's address if you are trading

 

[Vending Siting Services]

So he's not really stolen it then.

And he's not made contact with you, except to reply to your queries.

What part of it doesn't make sense - Nominet will have informed the registrant. Were you the registrant or were the hosting company the registrant?

As it's been pointed out a few times here, seems like you want to be taking this up with the hosting company.

When I first found out I thought it had been stolen - wouldn't you, if you had been in possession of it for nearly 20 years?

He is fully aware what our site is used for.

The whole lot doesn't make sense, ie, how could this happen?

I am not entirely sure who the registrant is (was). All I know is we get emails from our web hosting company asking us to renew, this one, for whatever reason was missed and no one noticed it, us or the web hosting company.

If we own something (or thought we owned it), why would a web hosting company be the registrant if we are the ones who are and have been using it? Now I am VERY confused .... sorry.

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

If we own something (or thought we owned it), why would a web hosting company be the registrant if we are the ones who are and have been using it? Now I am VERY confused .... sorry.

Sometimes hosting companies register client's domains in the host's name which means you don't own the domain, the host does.

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Sometimes hosting companies register client's domains in the host's name which means you don't own the domain, the host does.

Very true. Now if you really did own the domain then you should contact Nominet yourself and explain exactly what has happened. Sometimes they can restore the domain to the original owner in certain circumstances.

Now, having said that, there is very little trace of the domain ever having a website.

A search on google - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q="jellybeans.co.uk"&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Shows that:

A site called jellysweets.co.uk having the domain

A bouncy castle company in Hounslow having it

And somebody's youtube profile having quoted the domain



What did you use it for?

Stephen.

 

[Dwebs-Ltd]

Very true. Now if you really did own the domain then you should contact Nominet yourself and explain exactly what has happened. Sometimes they can restore the domain to the original owner in certain circumstances.

Now, having said that, there is very little trace of the domain ever having a website.

A search on google - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q="jellybeans.co.uk"&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Shows that:

A site called jellysweets.co.uk having the domain

A bouncy castle company in Hounslow having it

And somebody's youtube profile having quoted the domain



What did you use it for?

Stephen.

Plus its nearly 30 days since the new registrant purchased it!

 

[ken_uk]

Google is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard these days for some searches, try the internet archives way back machine.

Its playing up for me at the moment, but I did get it to load one page which was about a 'jelly bean campaign' ran by a vending company...

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

Google is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard these days for some searches, try the internet archives way back machine.

Its playing up for me at the moment, but I did get it to load one page which was about a 'jelly bean campaign' ran by a vending company...

Maybe - but it doesn't inspire confidence that the name has been owned for 20 years! Archive.org now working and has details of the jelly bean campaign going back a couple of years and nothing earlier.

Stephen.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

jellybeans.co.uk has been owned by us since the early 90's and we only started to use it about 4 or 5 years ago to promote the charitable work that we do - its a very basic website which talks about the charities we support and monies that we have raised, to date, well over £.75m.

 

[Ididit]

Just a couple of facts that I have dug up

Jellybeans.co.uk was originally registered on 20th Nov 1998 (10 1/2 years ago)

It was registered to someone called 'action now'

Before a domain name gets deleted it goes through a 99 day deletion process as found on Nominets website (cant post link I have less than 15 posts)

This happens to all UK domain names and your hosting company 'should' know this.

From the comments you have made about your hosting company on the 1st 2 pages of this thread it seems to me as if they knew the domain name was going to be deleted and they had 4 people waiting for this to happen to reregister it.

 

[venderbase]

Hi Barbara,
Long time no speak.

I can't believe whats happened to the domain!!
I've was wondering for a few weeks what was going on with the website.
It's such a shame this has happened.

I dont understand why your hosting company didn't contact nominet to renew the domain or even transfer it, and instead decided to wait for it to expire and rebuy it.
Maybe this was just the easiest way for them to change the ownership details on it?

I may be waaayy off base here, but can you be certain your hosting company isn't involved with the bad guys in this?
It just seems strange for that domain to be a target.

Daz

 

[OldWelshGuy]

your hosting company are blagging you, While it was in limbo at ANY TIME, they could have contacted Nominet and transferred it to them. My guess is they are not Nominet members and are probably just resellers.

Deal direct with Nominet you can telephone them, they are VERY helpful. http://www.nic.uk/disputes/drs/ might help you.

But you must ensure your story is 100% correct. you MUST have letters etc, the original nominet certificate would be good, but then again when you registered it (if 20 years is correct) then you would have had to register it directly with one of the early individual controllers, or maybe with UKERNA (as I did with my first domains).

here is the thing though. Nominet are BRILLIANT at letting you know about your domain. they get in touch with your registrar, they email the technical and administrative contact. HELL they even HARD COPY MAIL YOU an invoice for £80 to renew the domain directly.

Someone somewhere screwed up here monumentally.

My advice to you is cut out your domain registrar, get on the phone to nominet in the morning 01865 332244 . tell them the score, and get a dispute registered IMMEDIATELY.

 

[Nathanto]

If I rented a shop and built a business through the name of the shop and its location to then find during a busy time someone had approached my landlord and said " I will take over the rent" and then that someone phoned me and said do you want your shop back? That would be wrong.

Sorry but that's a terrible analogy!

To continue your analogy, the OP has admitted they vacated the property for three months, didn't pay the rent (renewal fee) that was due and all attempts by the landlord to contact them failed.

Any reasonable person would see that the landlord (Nominet) had every right to put the shop back on the open market and the new tenant had every right to pay the fee, take over the premises and benefit from the existing footfall into the shop.

Clearly the OP is partly at fault here for not ensuring the contact records were up to date but the main blame lies with the hosting company. As professionals they simply gave the wrong advice that could end up costing the OP thousands of pounds and if I were the OP my solicitors would have already written to the hosting company by now.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Whilst I agree we can aportion blame here, I don't think it will help the Op to get his domain back.

I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt the Op is feeling as sick as a parrot,. It is a bit like when you sleep with your girlfriends sister and... oh hang on, not a real good idea to go down that route.

 

[Nathanto]

And yes, I agree, he did buy it fair and square in the eyes of the law, but my gripe is, why was I NOT INFORMED! There is something which doesn't make sense to me. Our web hosting company have been excellent over the years and I really can't understand how something so simple could have gone so wrong. The web hosting company are really trying to help so I won't name them here as it won't solve anything.

I really do understand how annoyed you are but in this post you've hit the nail on the head.

All your anger at the new registrant is mis-placed, he/she has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Based on everything you have said here it is clearly your hosting company at fault and they need to rectify the situation. A professional, competent hosting company could have sorted this out with a minimum of fuss.

It sounds to me like you were not informed because your new hosting company did not update or advise you to update the contact details for the domain (which at the time of the takeover were now listing a company that no longer existed.) So in my opinion this is further proof of how your new hosting company has failed you.

If I were in your shoes I would have my solicitor write to the hosting company advising them that it will cost £12,500 plus legal fees to get back to the position you were in before they messed up and you expect them to rectify this within the next 7 working days.