Does this work in the UK?

[adbase]

I'll admit I have an axe to grind (actually I don't grind axes!) but as a professional handyman and founder of a trade association for handymen (UK Guild of Handymen) I recently came across the ACHP which is the Association of Certified Handyman Professionals who operate in the USA and Canada and have just expanded into the UK.
While anything that helps to make handymen more professional, trustworthy and accountable can only be a good thing I think these people are a joke.
Our guild has a tough time-limited online test of twenty questions randomly picked from 60 which we know is pretty hard to pass by the failure rate. But the ACHP's online test shows all their questions and there is no time limit. The question are so easy it is ridiculous …here is one of their questions:
A handyman should always carry _____________.
1) a rabbits foot for good luck

2) insurance

3) a comb

4) a baseball glove
In addition they use many American expressions like:

calling a tap a faucet.

referring to toilet flapper valves which are not used in the UK.

talking of mudding which appears to be a US term for the application of bonding plaster

referring to drywall instead of plasterboard

…and I doubt anyone in the UK has ever heard of a GFCI outlet (ground-fault circuit interrupter) which is hardly surprising because British electrician's refer to 'earth' not 'ground'
What are people's opinions as to whether someone passing such a test can really count as being 'certified' in any positive way to work in the UK?

 

[S-Marketing]

The sole purpose of these guilds and schemes is to relieve hardworking tradesmen (who don't know about marketing) of their hard earned cash.

My advice would be to avoid them all.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

There are some which are mandatory depending on your trade like the NICEIC & GasSafe etc, but there are far too many others that are all a bit of a joke. You've got federation of master builders, guild of master craftsman, painters & decorators association, CITB/CSCS, CHAS, SafeContracor, federation of this that & the other, it's ridiculous. Then you've got part p building regs, because fitting spotlights in a kitchen is apparently a job that only a professional can do/sign off.

What a load of crap, because most of the requirements are easy and even then they don't stop cowboy builders and rip off merchants.

It's just a big scam that in some cases tradesmen are essentially forced to join to be able to work, ie CSCS card to work on site, CHAS registered tradesmen being selected over other longer established, better qualified and possibly safer tradesmen anyway. Red tape like you've never seen before.

 

[MASSEY]

I view their attempt at regulating something pretty unregulatable in the same way i view yours, which is disgusting.

What questions do you ask your applicants?

"When you are nailing something, what tool are you using"

 

[adbase]

I view their attempt at regulating something pretty unregulatable in the same way i view yours, which is disgusting.

What questions do you ask your applicants?

"When you are nailing something, what tool are you using"

I don't see that trying to regulate something which is in the wider consumer interest is a bad thing. I've seen and rectified some atrocious work done by 'so-called' regulated and qualified professionals in the plumbing, building and electrical trades.
If you think the Guild's test is so easy then have a go at it and see what score you get!

 

[MASSEY]

I don't see that trying to regulate something which is in the wider consumer interest is a bad thing. I've seen and rectified some atrocious work done by 'so-called' regulated and qualified professionals in the plumbing, building and electrical trades.
If you think the Guild's test is so easy then have a go at it and see what score you get!

Nothing these regulators do is in the interest of the consumer, other than Gas Safe and Part P which are government schemes.

The rest are just clones of the original sites set up with review facilities for tradesmen.

They all must be doing pretty badly because people are leaving crap reviews about them all.

 

[adbase]

I think you must be talking about sites like Rated People which are parasitic and do nothing for the consumer other than raise the cost a tradesperson needs to charge customers in order to recoup their own (tradesperson's) cost of buying leads.
Trade associations can be very beneficial in lots of ways.
Take for example bulk discount on public liability insurance.
Often it takes people clubbing together to acquire a group strength instead of an individual's weakness.
And if allied to that, the association can try and raise standards while providing a service that is worth what people pay (in the way of a membership fee) where's the problem?
I would be wary to take note only of crap reviews that were given by actual members of such bodies rather than people slagging off for the sake of it.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Can you explain what exactly a professional handyman is?

What are the requirements to be one?

What benefits are there for the handymen? How much does it cost them?

What benefits are there to customers?

 

[adbase]

A professional handyman is someone who makes his living being a handyman in the same way a professional footballer makes his living from playing football.

There are no requirements to be a professional handyman which is part of the problem. Hopefully market forces mean that someone who is crap won't survive but this sector is unregulated leaving the public struggling to separate good from bad ..hence the need for the guild.

Personal recommendation is always best but many people don't have anyone to ask (typically older folk).

The UK Guild of Handymen demands members have PL insurance, have at least 3 reviews posted on an independently managed website like Freeindex, they must also pass our entrance exam and abide by our code of conduct.

Guild handymen benefit in many ways which are spelled out to them in the members area on the trade side of our website. If they consider it's worth the punt (£45 annually) then they join. But if we don't offer them what they perceive as value for money then they don't join although they can still register their business for free.

A major benefit of becoming a member is they are listed above non-members in a postcode search on our database for the public to find a local handyman. I'm also a handymen and I know this works because I've had enquiries from it.

Customers benefit from a far greater likelihood that by engaging a member (as opposed to a non-member) they will be getting someone who is capable and experienced and less likely to be a cowboy.

 

[Beachcomber]

The problem of dodgy tradesmen is as old as the hills and it would be nice to find a way of getting some kind of standard of competance implemented.

Unfortunately I think the only way of doing this is through enforced registration / examination and the issuing of licences - even then you will get plenty of punters happy to pay unlicenced workers to get the job done of the cheap.

The best scheme I've seen yet is the Buy with Confidence scheme - run by Trading standards which itself carries alot of weight, members are checked out thoroughly including CRB checks, 7 references from customers picked by them at random from a list of work you have done over the past 12 months, financial solvency checks etc, etc.

Once you have passed all of these tests you can use their logo and advertise yourself as 'Trading Standards Approved'


The only problem I see with the registration system for the UK Guild of handymen is the reference criteria. I personally don't use the sites refered to for 3 very good reasons.

Firstly, you get hammered by sales calls similar to if you have Yell online ad's.

Secondly - any dodgy trader can rope friends, family, mates etc. to leave positive reviews and give a false impression.

Lastly - It is all too easy for rival tradesmen to rubbish you and use similar tactics to point 2 to try and ruin your reputation, using the old "oh, don't use him - have you seen all the bad reviews he's had?"
While I've not heard of anyone personally this has happened to, it has been reported on some of the trade forums.

As a consequence, I couldn't join if I wanted to as i don't subscribe to these sites. In fact, of all the very good trades I know, only one or two do use these sites so 90% of the very trustworthy trades I know would be excluded from your scheme whereas the dodgy fella with his mates leaving positive reviews would be ok (test pass notwithstanding)



Could there be a better way of verifying a persons competancy than relying on other web sites?

 

[maxine]

The other side of the argument however is that there are plenty of us who have sorted out and rectified atrocious work of so called "vetted" professional membership types.

Doesn't mean an awful lot really, companies can manage their own reputation by using free index or other sites independently, goes without saying they should have PL insurance, waste carriers license, and do a good job otherwise they wouldn't be in business very long.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

The other side of the argument however is that there are plenty of us who have sorted out and rectified atrocious work of so called "vetted" professional membership types.

Doesn't mean an awful lot really, companies can manage their own reputation by using free index or other sites independently, goes without saying they should have PL insurance, waste carriers license, and do a good job otherwise they wouldn't be in business very long.

Sadly, there are plenty that don't have/do any of these and carry on trading and ripping people off time & time again. And for everyone that does eventually go out of business I'm sure another opens in it's place (or they just start trading under a new name that doesn't have all the bad reviews.............yet!)

 

[Beachcomber]

(or they just start trading under a new name that doesn't have all the bad reviews.............yet!)

Exactly!
Just sorted out a back door today left shot to peices by the last chancer who thought he'd have a go.

Was really tempted to take pics of the kitchen install there as well - you really wouldn't believe how utterly poo it was, I mean worse than amateur DIY and then some

There are some great pics on another forum I visit - might have to re-post some here for us to have a chuckle at!

 

[adbase]

As an independent verification/review system I think Freeindex is as good as it gets. They check for the same IP address being used for multiple reviews so people can't review themselves under different email addresses. They are also hot on checking if the a reviews looks dodgy. I heard of several being deleted by the administrators because they came from family members.
I don't think any system will ever be perfect as even Buy with Confidence say this on their website—
In particular we do not
· Guarantee the financial status of any business
· Accept any liability for any goods or services provided by any business
· Guarantee the quality or condition of any goods or services provided by any business
· Guarantee that the price of goods and services supplied is competitive relative to any other business.

Basically they do their best but give NO assurances.

 

[Beachcomber]

Basically they do their best but give NO assurances.

Every site / company / organisation will have it's disclaimers - too litigious these days not to.

 

[adbase]

Every site / company / organisation will have it's disclaimers - too litigious these days not to.

Granted but it doesn't instill much confidence in a programme called Buy with Confidence

 

[Beachcomber]

Granted but it doesn't instill much confidence in a programme called Buy with Confidence

I don't think a technicality like that would discredit beign trading standards approved.

 

[CKG]

I think the problem in the UK is an almost universal lack of respect for the tradesman and this is probably down to the over commercialisation of the regulatory system.

So I can see why you may want to form a guild. Working to codes of conduct, having a bit of lobbying power and a membership built on the credibility of experience rather than credibility of your cash can't be a bad thing for the industry. The government wont do this for you - they'd just introduce a scheme for Capita to profiteer out of.

Even our own regulatory bodies treat us with utter contempt. In the gas industry you can be legally competent on a Friday and then be prosecuted and sent to prison on the Monday morning for not being competent if your registration lapsed over the weekend. No weight is given to experience or skill level.

We need a graded licence system - as in limited licence (can't work without the supervision of a craftsman), Craftsman (has to work under a master) and then Master (The don of the industry - you have to attain this level to be self employed).

It needs to be a closed shop - You have to enter the industry on a limited licence and once you are trained you are trained, no faffing about with re sitting expensive exams every few years and getting competences bumped off with changes in regs. And this will hopefully close down all these crackpot schemes that spring up in an effort to give credibility to the down trodden tradesman.

I've just sold my business in the UK and I've decided to re-locate to New Zealand. Despite my decade of experience running a business managing commercial gas installations and maintenance in the uber strict public sector under our impossible to follow gas Regulations, i'll have to start at the bottom again on a restricted licence.

I can't start-up in business until I have a few years experience working under what they call a 'Certifying Gas Fitter'. It's annoying and i'll probably be far more competent on every level than the bloke who employs me but that's just how it is.

I think it's the only way to weed out the chancers who mess things up for everyone involved.

It will never happen though.

 

[Beachcomber]

I think the problem in the UK is an almost universal lack of respect for the tradesman and this is probably down to the over commercialisation of the regulatory system...........

That - and the dirge of 'cowboy trader' programs telling the public every trade is a rip off merchant and DIY programs telling them you can re-decorate your entire house in an hour / for £25.

 

[Deleted member 130603]

There are some which are mandatory depending on your trade like the NICEIC & GasSafe etc, but there are far too many others that are all a bit of a joke. You've got federation of master builders, guild of master craftsman, painters & decorators association, CITB/CSCS, CHAS, SafeContracor, federation of this that & the other, it's ridiculous. Then you've got part p building regs, because fitting spotlights in a kitchen is apparently a job that only a professional can do/sign off.

What a load of crap, because most of the requirements are easy and even then they don't stop cowboy builders and rip off merchants.

It's just a big scam that in some cases tradesmen are essentially forced to join to be able to work, ie CSCS card to work on site, CHAS registered tradesmen being selected over other longer established, better qualified and possibly safer tradesmen anyway. Red tape like you've never seen before.

I agree 100%. And why on earth would anyone pay to join a governing body which regulates an unregulated industry like the handyman industry or the painting and decorating industry?

 

[adbase]

It's a tricky balance between regulation and the freedom for people to do whatever they like for themselves, or indeed for capable individuals to make a living by doing 'odd jobs' for an increasingly elderly and practically-inept society that has a need for such people.
Sure trades like building and gas fitting need tight control. But electrics at the moment is a farce with what you're allowed to do and what is notifiable ...which is why so many people just ignore the legislation.
Gone are the days when you built a reputation and could then survive on it because the web has created a facade behind which the most rank amateur can present himself (or herself) as an esteemed and experienced pro.
I agree the DIY programs scare people into believing all traders are rogues in just the same way that parents these days are scared by the news into thinking everyone is a paedophile.

 

[adbase]

I agree 100%. And why on earth would anyone pay to join a governing body which regulates an unregulated industry like the handyman industry or the painting and decorating industry?

I'm a handyman and the reason I started the UK Guild of Handymen was because I couldn't find a suitable body I wanted to join.
It is not necessarily about regulation of the industry but more about creating a quality benchmark that traders can aspire to so that the end consumer can be more confident that aren't getting a cowboy.
And along the way if you can increase an industry sector's profile and offer your membership some collective deals like say on PL insurance, then you have your answer.

 

[Deleted member 130603]

I'm a handyman and the reason I started the UK Guild of Handymen was because I couldn't find a suitable body I wanted to join.
It is not necessarily about regulation of the industry but more about creating a quality benchmark that traders can aspire to so that the end consumer can be more confident that aren't getting a cowboy.
And along the way if you can increase an industry sector's profile and offer your membership some collective deals like say on PL insurance, then you have your answer.

I'm an electrician and since the advent of Part P, which legally compels all of England's domestic sparks to join organizations like the NICEIC, which cost upwards of about £500 a year plus insurance, re tape expenses and training, there have never been so many unhappy sparks.

How do you assess your handyman and regulate the quality of their work? Do you carry out an annual visit to inspect work, references and qualifications?

 

[adbase]

I'm an electrician and since the advent of Part P, which legally compels all of England's domestic sparks to join organizations like the NICEIC, which cost upwards of about £500 a year plus insurance, re tape expenses and training, there have never been so many unhappy sparks.

How do you assess your handyman and regulate the quality of their work? Do you carry out an annual visit to inspect work, references and qualifications?

The problem is that a handyman is expected to be able to do so many things that it is almost impossible to regulate.

The measure of a good handyman has as much to do with his versatility as his quality so we try to cover both in our entry criteria. The online test checks for versatility/experience and the independently assessed reviews (on a site like Freeindex) measures quality/customer satisfaction.

There are no recognised qualifications for handymen which again reflects the difficulty in covering the huge scope of possible work they might be asked to do. This workload is often made up of odds and ends that other trades would not be interested in or where engaging each of the proper trades would not make economic sense to the consumer.

A typical list handed to a handymen by say an elderly woman could be—
Fix up new toilet roll holder
Change blown bulb in external security lamp.
Clear out gutters
Fix dripping outside tap
Hang a heavy mirror
Repair/replace curtain rail that has fallen down
Remove ivy from around bay window

How might such a list of work be regulated? ...or even quality inspected in a practical way?

And if any of the jobs were done badly the consequences are not as life threatening as the potential work of a sparky, builder or gas fitter so the regulatory imperative is not nearly so great.