do people learn trades properly anymore?

[Matt1959]

Saw an article in our local paper this week about a lady aged about 45 who decided on a change of career. She fancied plumbing so enrolled on a taster course to see if the trade was right for her. Subsequently she enrolled on a 6 month NVQ course and after leaving that, set up as a self employed plumber.

If I want a plumber or any other trade in my house, I want to know they know what they're doing. IMHO 6 months training aint enough to be able to do a good reliable job - maybe I'm wrong:|.

This argument could apply to all the trades, I just picked plumbing cos of the article.

So what happened to 3 yr apprenticeships in conjunction with college etc:|.

Are trade skills being dumbed down and if so what about the unfortunate homeowner who ends up being practiced on:|

I'm not knocking the lady for her enterprise btw

 

[mattley23]

Unfortunately its the way things have gone lately, gone are the days of 3 years college and working along side a season tradesmen for people to learn a trade.

There are places cropping up all over the country where people can enrole for courses as short as a week to 'learn' a trade!! Ive got a place near me who offer 1 week brickie, plastering, plumbing, electrics, carpentry courses. Yes they might teach you the basics but not nearly enough to set up in business. But the sad fact is many people are doing these courses and thinking they can tackle any job.

FAIL!

Me personally im a plasterer by trade however i never went to college or did a course. My trade was learnt onsite working with a 27yr veteran plasterer for 3 years before i even contemplated going alone.

 

[steve the fitter]

I dont think these 6 month wonders last for long but Im sure that lady will do alright from getting on the paper for a while

 

[G. Lasagne]

Unfortunately its the way things have gone lately, gone are the days of 3 years college and working along side a season tradesmen for people to learn a trade.

There are places cropping up all over the country where people can enrole for courses as short as a week to 'learn' a trade!! Ive got a place near me who offer 1 week brickie, plastering, plumbing, electrics, carpentry courses. Yes they might teach you the basics but not nearly enough to set up in business. But the sad fact is many people are doing these courses and thinking they can tackle any job.

FAIL!

Me personally im a plasterer by trade however i never went to college or did a course. My trade was learnt onsite working with a 27yr veteran plasterer for 3 years before i even contemplated going alone.

I have had 2 apprentices altogether and both have done/are doing 2 year apprenticeships with the option of a third year, so they are still out there.

A 3 year apprenticeship isnt always an option for everyone, so i dont knock the short courses if people want to career change then good on them, its better than sitting on there arse collecting the dole, but i do agree some arent capable of going self employed, and may need supervision for a year or 2 but nothing stopping them becoming a good tradesman, it all depends on the individual.

 

[markD1968]

There are some good fast study tradesmen and there are some realy bad ones but in my opinion that goes for all tradesmen.

Take today for example out of the 11 jobs done today 5 of them were for the same problem on boiler installs done within the last 2 years & all of them could have been avoided with a little bit of thought and reading / thinking through the install instructions & all of them were carried out by time served chaps.

So I it all comes down to the individual and whether or not they want or can do it properly.

 

[MH1]

I know a lass who has done the full NVQ plumbing course and she was bored to tears most weeks, she envies many who go on decent short courses. I think the short courses are OK for the basics, after that a lot comes down too the person. Not everyone are suitable to be self-employed.

 

[Matt1959]

I havnt got a problem with people working in a trade with little experience as they are usually under someone who can guide them. Its the notion that you can do a 6 month course and work in someones home that puzzles me. I know certain individuals have the confidence to do that but it doesnt mean they have the skills.

 

[saxondale]

Coughes ....................... 20 minutes for the trainee to drill three holes today, I give in, really I do

 

[Matt1959]

Coughes ....................... 20 minutes for the trainee to drill three holes today, I give in, really I do

and that was with a pillar drill

 

[maxine]

And yet... we have an apprentice who started C&G course at college in September and so far hasn't done ANY practical work! He has spent all his time doing "key skills" (maths and english) despite sitting an entrance exam. Maybe NVQ's are the way to go if you want a practical qualification. Not sure if that gives people the right level of skill or experience to cut their teeth working in peoples homes, especially not with plumbing as problems not something you can see straight away

 

[patientlady]

My better half was working in London a few months ago and a traffic warden knocked on the door and said he was about to put a ticket on the van because the van was parked over the line. The other half thanked him for letting him know and the warden said that he wouldn't give him the ticket if he gave him a job for a week without pay cos he wanted to learn plumbing so that he could set up a business.
So you can learn it in a week apparently!

 

[estwig]

The problem with these 'learn a trade in your lunch break' courses, is the tea!!

How can you be expected to learn how to make a decent cuppa on site, using mouldy mugs, dodgy tea bags and a bit of wood, in a fortnight!! It takes years of learning from seasoned profesionals, to become proficient at the resourceful art of making tea on site!!

 

[dal]

It's all down to the individual and some trades are far more skilled than others and depending on the job in hand.
I think products are being well-engineered now and taking all the skill out of the job unfortunately. Take plumbing for example. Push fittings so you can assemble in a matter of minutes. Don't get my wrong I know the design of the system itself.
Or my business for example (Formwork). In the old days there were not 'decking-systems', or pre-fabricated metal shutters. The carpenter would design the shutters himself and fabricate out of timber. Obviously depending on the pressure on the shutters and building in the quickest most efficient way possible whilst thinking of ease of how to strike also.
Small jobs use good-chippies that know what they're doing as metal shutters are cost-effective when repetitively used, however for one-off custom timber shutters with more expensive chippies are used. But metal shutters have done a lot of chippies out of work along with groud-beams where plastic permanent formwork is used.
I had a brief spell welding and it seems they are taking a lot of skill out of that too. In the old days a welder was expected to be trained and skilled in almost all areas of welding as opposed to now they are just sticking in one area like mig or tig.
It's a big shame .

 

[KM-Tiger]

The problem with these 'learn a trade in your lunch break' courses, is the tea!!

And it's not just the tea.

Hands up those that can do the bacon sandwiches using a shovel over a brazier?

 

[Matt1959]

you never know until you have try

what do you mean?

 

[Tej]

^^^^
ermm
where did that come from?

 

[KM-Tiger]

^^^^
ermm
where did that come from?

Spammer got deleted.

Obviously got bacon and spam mixed up, so not a proper tradesman.

 

[bloorino]

Its shocking that someone can go on a 2 week course and claim there a tradesman, im 29 and i served 2 apprentiships my first in plumbing and then in carpentry all in all took 6 years. My uncle has done one of these crash course's in plastering, i wouldn't let him any where near one of my jobs.

What happens when something go's wrong?? something they forgot to tell them in the classroom.

It gives real time served tradesman a bad name when these people go out and do shoddy jobs.

If they want to learn a trade do it the proper way!!!!!!!!

 

[dal]

What about all the foreigners . Read in the paper yesterday that they are loosening restrictions on permits to get them working on the Olympics despite thousands of locals being out of work.
They also say that majority of workers on the Olympics are locals . What they have done is they have accommodation. Register those that have just come of the boat as their local address as the accommodation address; they are now classed as locals and work for under half the wages an Englishman gets .

 

[Tej]

Thousands of locals probably dont have the required skills.. and moreover might be easier to be on benefits than to be grafting!

 

[MASSEY]

Some of these courses can cost 5 thousand pounds and can instill a hell of a lot of knowledge into an adult looking for a trade . The apprentice way is generally for youngsters who are fresh out of school and lack common sense and an idea of how things go about which is why i think they are dragged through at a more slower pace. Also they do not have the big finance to put themselves through at the quicker pace.

 

[Tej]

Some of these courses can cost 5 thousand pounds and can instill a hell of a lot of knowledge into an adult looking for a trade . The apprentice way is generally for youngsters who are fresh out of school and lack common sense and an idea of how things go about which is why i think they are dragged through at a more slower pace. Also they do not have the big finance to put themselves through at the quicker pace.

Just because the course costs £5k.. does not mean that the "adult" is capable of doing the job... what does instilling a lot of knowledge mean?...

There is no substitute for learning a trade properly.

Would you hire a plumber.. say... when he had no practical experience.. but had done a course!!!!

Would you let someone loose in your house ( or in your parents house... as you don't own one yourself)

 

[MASSEY]

This will bug you, i have lived in a three bedroomed detached house all on my own since i was 17.

Personally i would be wary of letting some one with no hands on into my house.
But these 5k plumbing courses have been good value for some people not for everyone. The only way to be sure i suppose is to get testimonials or avoid them all together.

 

[Gratis Guidance]

I understand the concern with these courses, but I can see how they work - at the end of the day, its easier to be a tradesman these days than it used to be. While you needed 3 years training to learn how to do the stuff you learnt to do 20 years ago - you don't actually do lot of that stuff these days!

I remember a plasterer mate of mine moan about dry liners and how they were simplifying his job- and that was 20 years ago!

Everything moves on - the next complaint traditionally is that you don't make the money you used to make!!

 

[JoyDivision]

I am actually for tougher rules. I want my industry PC repair to regulated. I am sick of school kids taking my business then not paying tax etc.

In the long run the school kids never last but we all get tared with the same brush ;(

 

[Gratis Guidance]

I am actually for tougher rules. I want my industry PC repair to regulated. I am sick of school kids taking my business then not paying tax etc.

In the long run the school kids never last but we all get tared with the same brush ;(

I am so against that idea!!
The whole computer industry was build from school kids with an eye to making a few quid!

Why stop the next generation from doing exactly what you did? Are you scared of the competition? That is normally the only reason for regulating any industry - usually using the guise of safety and responsibility but in reality its just creating a more expensive barrier to entry.

Where do you want to place the barrier? All engineers to have a CCNA before they can unscrew the PC? How about only members of the BCS are allowed to fix a PC?

The only winners there are the training and regulation organisations and kids will still fix their neighbours PC's!!!

 

[dal]

Thousands of locals probably dont have the required skills.. and moreover might be easier to be on benefits than to be grafting!

Some people are lazy. But we (British Labor force)are being priced out of the market. These foreigners are working for half what an Englishman gets paid .
A lot of these courses are a waste of time (I'm not saying all of them). Was on a job a couple of years ago, a brickie (poor quality brick layer) had been recruited from one of these course centres and he was going to start training people lol. The guy knocked down three of his own door-frames on this job . The same frame took him four attempts to get right :redface:. This guy was going to be teaching others . Not speaking of all courses here; just my experience with a soon to be tutor.

 

[Tej]

Some people are lazy. But we (British Labor force)are being priced out of the market. These foreigners are working for half what an Englishman gets paid .

Why is that? and how can these foreigners live on "half of what an Englishman gets paid" ?.. why do they get the jobs if they are no good?

I heard one of these so called foreigners remark.. " Thank God that the brits are lazy... else we would not have been able to get any work and survive"

What is the answer then???

 

[dal]

Because they have a far lower standard than us. They are used not to having hot water, 10 of them live in one little flat.
Whereas most English are used to a far higher standard of living. Why do you think they climb into lorries and risk life and limb to get here. Half of our money is far far more than they are used to or get paid in their home country.
Larger building firms require men who will work all hours under the sun. English want to be well paid for this as we risk loosing our wives and give up our social lives etc. The foreigners on my job at the minute want to work constantly as they are scraping by on pittence. Ten of them in a crappy little mini-van, and they have no home life. I like a little bit of a social life too, it's not all about work and you need time for your body to repair itself in a physically demanding job.

 

[estwig]

A lot of these courses are a waste of time (I'm not saying all of them). Was on a job a couple of years ago, a brickie (poor quality brick layer) had been recruited from one of these course centres and he was going to start training people lol. The guy knocked down three of his own door-frames on this job . The same frame took him four attempts to get right :redface:. This guy was going to be teaching others . Not speaking of all courses here; just my experience with a soon to be tutor.

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach!

It's an old saying, but very true.

 

[estwig]

Because they have a far lower standard than us. They are used not to having hot water, 10 of them live in one little flat.
Whereas most English are used to a far higher standard of living. Why do you think they climb into lorries and risk life and limb to get here. Half of our money is far far more than they are used to or get paid in their home country.
Larger building firms require men who will work all hours under the sun. English want to be well paid for this as we risk loosing our wives and give up our social lives etc. The foreigners on my job at the minute want to work constantly as they are scraping by on pittence. Ten of them in a crappy little mini-van, and they have no home life. I like a little bit of a social life too, it's not all about work and you need time for your body to repair itself in a physically demanding job.

What a load of b*ll*cks, has it not occurred to you, that they choose to live this way, not because they can't afford better, but to save money. A lot of these fellas also send money home to families.

Live and let live, it's their time, their money, their lives, good luck to 'em.

 

[dal]

Yeah I'm sure they love it . Very good for our economy as well isn't it estwig, estimated last year 1 billion out of our economy . So if thats what the government are saying then you know its ten times that amount.
They work 5 years here then go back millionaires. Meanwhile it's bringing our standard down. We'd be earning a lot more if they were not here.
They are not bringing raising to our standards but bringing our standards down.
It angers me that there's people like yourself living in your own little world completely out of tune with reality. Get on a tube up London and you'll find very few with English accents. Feel out of place in our own country and there is graffiti on many building sites saying exactly this from the foreigners that we are foolish and they are taking our jobs.
Also lack of health and safety as we are having Health and Safety Talks with only a few English understanding; tutor explains to us to try to translate via arm signals to those who can't speak English lol.
Get out there in the real world sunshine. I'm not gonna try to bring my point across anymore because I'm dealing with people that are not in touch with reality of this country and it's like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[estwig]

But their still people, on the whole decent people in my experience, trying to make their way in the World.

Have you any idea how many ex pats their are?? I think you will find more British people leave this country every year to work and live abroad, than foreigners who come here.

I have little time people for people like you dal, blaming your problems and the problems of this country on foreigners. Narrow minded rubbish.

 

[Tej]

But their still people, on the whole decent people in my experience, trying to make their way in the World.

Have you any idea how many ex pats their are?? I think you will find more British people leave this country every year to work and live abroad, than foreigners who come here.

I have little time people for people like you dal, blaming your problems and the problems of this country on foreigners. Narrow minded rubbish.

Well said Estwig...

The more people realise that they have got to get off their arses and compete.. maybe put in 10 hour days.. etc..

But.. hey! I want a social life..my wife will kill me if I don't get home for tea in time.... I don't want to work, cos I have to repair the body ( indulgence?).. lol

Trouble is in time .. the foreigners will work out the benefits system better than the natives.. then everybody will be sitting around...trying to scrape off a soon to be empty pot... sad

 

[Gratis Guidance]

Yeah I'm sure they love it . Very good for our economy as well isn't it estwig, estimated last year 1 billion out of our economy . So if thats what the government are saying then you know its ten times that amount.
They work 5 years here then go back millionaires. Meanwhile it's bringing our standard down. We'd be earning a lot more if they were not here.
They are not bringing raising to our standards but bringing our standards down.
It angers me that there's people like yourself living in your own little world completely out of tune with reality. Get on a tube up London and you'll find very few with English accents. Feel out of place in our own country and there is graffiti on many building sites saying exactly this from the foreigners that we are foolish and they are taking our jobs.
Also lack of health and safety as we are having Health and Safety Talks with only a few English understanding; tutor explains to us to try to translate via arm signals to those who can't speak English lol.
Get out there in the real world sunshine. I'm not gonna try to bring my point across anymore because I'm dealing with people that are not in touch with reality of this country and it's like banging my head against a brick wall.

It is called progress - and you are not doing any of it!!

The problem really is that you think that you should be paid for the quality of work that was acceptable 10 years ago - and these foreigners have upped the game!

Its exactly the same as the supermarkets and the high st - cheaper is what people want - regardless of what they say!

If I, as an employer, can find someone willing to do work for £10 an hour where as the prior market rate was £15 an hour, as long as the quality is as good as I need, then I will go with the cheapest. The fact that your quality is higher than I need is your problem!

What you need to do is to add some value to your offering and justify the wage that you want !!

Nothing personal, business is business!!

 

[Tej]

How long you been working?

You already a millionaire?.. your standard been lowered?

So.. you dont need to work on the tools

Have an easy life and stop whingeing

 

[dal]

Some good comments there Gratis.
To be honest I'm doing alright fellas. I'm thinking about the long term effect on the economy and on our offspring; which you guys seem to be overlooking here.
It's nothing personal against them, I'm moaning about the government. There are a few nice fella's on the jobs that are foreign.
But I'm afraid you're being a little short-minded estwig. You're not thinking of the long-term effect of this; economy, over-population, strain on resources in an already vastly over-populated country.
Unemployment for youngsters is at an all time high. This is because businesses are seeking the quick solution of hiring cheaper workers that are already 'trained'/ clued up. Instead of investing into training the young workforce.
Estwig you're correct more people are leaving this country than coming in... And why is that? Seeking better working conditions, salaries in Australia etc... where their workforce is valued and stricter immigration regulations are in place. Good quality (Wealth of the country) is going out and poor is coming in. So we have more money going out of the economy, along with foreign coming in that will be sending more money out of the economy .

 

[estwig]

dal, still so narrow minded, you talk about immigration, the effect on the economy and our offspring, like it is a new thing. We have in this country actively sought foreigners to come and work here for hundreds of years. This ain't news, you ain't come up with some magic revelation, you ain't the messiah.

I feel sorry for you mate, it is a shame you look to place blame on others. Instead of looking for opportunity for yourself and those around you.

 

[G. Lasagne]

Because they have a far lower standard than us. They are used not to having hot water, 10 of them live in one little flat.
Whereas most English are used to a far higher standard of living. Why do you think they climb into lorries and risk life and limb to get here. Half of our money is far far more than they are used to or get paid in their home country.
Larger building firms require men who will work all hours under the sun. English want to be well paid for this as we risk loosing our wives and give up our social lives etc. The foreigners on my job at the minute want to work constantly as they are scraping by on pittence. Ten of them in a crappy little mini-van, and they have no home life. I like a little bit of a social life too, it's not all about work and you need time for your body to repair itself in a physically demanding job.

So what you really mean is that the foreigners arent as lazy and dont give there employers as much grief as us brits, if somebody is happy to work there socks off and not whinge about everything then im not surprised there getting the jobs.

The unemployment stats in this country are not all down to the recession there down to milions of people who cant be arsed to work.

What percentage of polish people in this country dont work, thats the difference, they seem to find a job ok.

 

[Test It]

Well if I may bring this thread back on track........

5 day wonders are what we unfortunately seem to get it the electrical industry, with people taking very,very basic short courses and then thinking they are electricians and can rewire houses.

5 day wonders isn't something I have made up, but a common term in the industry for these people.

I have nothing at all against anyone looking to better theirselves but there really is a lot more to electrics than 5 days. Its dangerous full stop.

I have been in the industry for years and any decent electrician will tell you that they are still learning everyday.