Disciplinary Query - Urgent

[Ian Smith]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone here can help with my query. Recently at work, a colleague of mine who works in my office took a personal document of mine from my desk without my permission and made a photocopy of it and handed it to senior management. For the record, it was a poem which had a political slant (contained some swear words too) on it - as a result, I am now facing disciplinary.

I want to ask: did that colleague of mine breach GDPR by taking something from my desk without my permission? If so, which aspect of GDPR can I reference?

That being said, I think my employer is taking me to task because of the content of the poem. It's not an inflammatory poem, nor does it incite anything sinister; it's a poem of empowerment more than anything.

I feel aggrieved, as that document could've been anything - a bank letter, a hospital letter, etc. I feel like it amounts to theft of my personal effects, but I'm unsure where I stand legally.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Ian J]

I want to ask: did that colleague of mine breach GDPR by taking something from my desk without my permission? If so, which aspect of GDPR can I reference?

I feel like it amounts to theft of my personal effects, but I'm unsure where I stand legally.

I can't see that it has anything to do with data protection and theft is defined as the intent to permanently deprive which doesn't seem to be what happened

 

[obscure]

I want to ask: did that colleague of mine breach GDPR by taking something from my desk without my permission?

No.

 

[Newchodge]

What are they alleging in the disciplinary process?

Separately, why would you have any personal information lying around on your work desk?

 

[menetworkjadaltd]

why would you have any personal information lying around on your work desk?

Knew you'd say that

 

[Ian Smith]

What are they alleging in the disciplinary process?

Separately, why would you have any personal information lying around on your work desk?

Sorry, I should've been a bit more clear. It's not gone to a formal disciplinary yet - the senior manager who spoke to me made it clear to me that I'm not being suspended, but would like me to come into work on Monday two hours after my normal start time so he can consult other members of senior management to decide on what course of action to take.

I will therefore know more on Monday when I've spoken to him. However, in the conversation I did have with him, he said that the wording in the poem is offensive (although he didn't point out exactly which parts) due to the language being used.

 

[Ian Smith]

Knew you'd say that

It was a bad error of judgement, admittedly. I had it in my pedestal to begin with, but had a moment of sloppiness by taking it out and leaving it on my desk.

Not my cleverest moment.

 

[Ian Smith]

I can't see that it has anything to do with data protection and theft is defined as the intent to permanently deprive which doesn't seem to be what happened

Thanks - you're right in saying that. However, I can't help but feel like it is definitely a form of theft, as it was an unauthorised duplication of a personal document. I know I certainly wouldn't violate someone else's privacy by doing that, because it would feel morally reprehensible.

 

[Mr D]

Thanks - you're right in saying that. However, I can't help but feel like it is definitely a form of theft, as it was an unauthorised duplication of a personal document. I know I certainly wouldn't violate someone else's privacy by doing that, because it would feel morally reprehensible.

Would theft have any bearings on your disciplinary?

 

[Ian Smith]

Would theft have any bearings on your disciplinary?

I'd like to think so.

If it wasn't taken from my desk, it'd have never have been raised as an issue.

 

[Raw Rob]

theft is defined as the intent to permanently deprive

Maybe it used to be defined this way, but taking a copy of something is also theft (copying a CD, an MP3, a film, a photograph, etc.)

 

[paulears]

Anything you create in your work is normally, by a clause in your contract, your employers. So if you wrote a poem, that was nice, in work time, then they would have claim to it. Your colleague cannot steal something that already belongs to the company. It's like when people complain somebody used 'their' hole puncher, when it's actually the firms hole puncher. Your 'crime' appears to be leaving not laying around where others could read it. Slagging off your bosses is one thing, but a political poem, even a rude one would not appear to break any rules - unless you signed something saying you wouldn't make political statements. I expect you did it during your breaks and not during work time, so that sorts that bit. What do you think they believe you did that is wrong? what broke your rules? forget the copying bit - not important, but it does perhaps indicate your views are not held by your colleagues, so maybe they are the ones offended by it?

 

[Ian Smith]

Maybe it used to be defined this way, but taking a copy of something is also theft (copying a CD, an MP3, a film, a photograph, etc.)

I'd have thought so too.

 

[Ian Smith]

Anything you create in your work is normally, by a clause in your contract, your employers. So if you wrote a poem, that was nice, in work time, then they would have claim to it. Your colleague cannot steal something that already belongs to the company. It's like when people complain somebody used 'their' hole puncher, when it's actually the firms hole puncher. Your 'crime' appears to be leaving not laying around where others could read it. Slagging off your bosses is one thing, but a political poem, even a rude one would not appear to break any rules - unless you signed something saying you wouldn't make political statements. I expect you did it during your breaks and not during work time, so that sorts that bit. What do you think they believe you did that is wrong? what broke your rules? forget the copying bit - not important, but it does perhaps indicate your views are not held by your colleagues, so maybe they are the ones offended by it?

I didn't write the poem myself - it was written by a mainstream poet, and something which I printed off right at the end of the working day (i.e. outside my contracted hours of work).

I haven't signed anything to say that I will not be making any political statements. In any case, the contents of the poem weren't ever vocalised or discussed with my colleagues.

As for what they believe I did wrong - the senior manager I spoke to said that it's a poem that he felt offended by and that the language used is offensive. That's all he said.

He didn't really mention what rules I've broken or anything. He just said he's going to consult with other senior managers and make some phone calls in order to decide on a course of action.

 

[paulears]

Just an aside - I'm no legal expert, but taking a copy of a document cannot be theft, because the original is still with the owner. The copy could be evidence for some other crime, I suppose - but making the copy doesn't permanently deprive the owner of the item, and can you imagine the queue at court when office workers copied documents that had not been 'copy approved' - if it was theft, they'd all be in trouble. Photocopying is surely a rights issue, not a criminal one?

 

[Mr D]

I'd like to think so.

If it wasn't taken from my desk, it'd have never have been raised as an issue.

The management may well investigate the issue of someone taking something from a desk. Or not, as they choose.
Separate from their issue with you.

This to me appears an overreaction - if I had a copy of something on my desk my bosses didn't like then at best I'd expect to have the boss call me in for a quiet meeting where I'm asked to remove it.
At best.
At worst I'd simply expect it to be removed and destroyed.

By the sound of it the action taken is serious - which suggests either complete idiots or something more involved.

Perhaps someone reported offensive material?

 

[Newchodge]

Whatever your colleague did is completely irrelevant to what is happening to you. Forget it, you are trying to sidetrack whatever issue your manager wants to speak to you about. When you know what that is, seek advice about it.

 

[Ian Smith]

Whatever your colleague did is completely irrelevant to what is happening to you. Forget it, you are trying to sidetrack whatever issue your manager wants to speak to you about. When you know what that is, seek advice about it.

Thanks Cyndy.

 

[obscure]

Maybe it used to be defined this way, but taking a copy of something is also theft (copying a CD, an MP3, a film, a photograph, etc.)

No it isn't... it's copyright infringement. Theft requires that you deprive someone of the use. Copying doesn't do that.

 

[dotcomdude]

As your manager has asked you to come in two hours later on Monday, it sounds like he wants this to be taken seriously. He could easily have consulted his colleagues with you doing your normal hours.

As daft as it sounds, he might also consider that you printed off the poem in working hours, and in any case using their equipment.

Is there any chance that this could cause them to look at your activity during work hours and find anything else? I only say this because I’ve seen similar circumstances where the individual was doing self-employed work in their employers time. Obviously that didn’t end well for the employee.

I’d say be prepared for anything, but don’t lose your cool and do anything rash. Calmly explain your reasoning why you might disagree with any conclusion they have come to.

You’ll be better placed to ask for advice when you know what their next move is.

 

[Bob Morgan]

I wonder if the same 'Three Act Opera' would be played out if that colleague had found a Personal Letter from Camelot declaring you as a Lottery Winner?

 

[MBE2017]

I am only guessing that your employer is having to react to your colleagues complaint. Time will tell how offensive this poem and the language used is considered, but your employer will have to take into account your colleagues take on the matter.

You are just going to have to wait until you have the meeting to find out.

 

[Jeff Nev]

Exactly how inflammatory was this 'poem'?

 

[kulture]

I think people are perhaps missing the point. The OP PRINTED a document AT HIS PLACE OF WORK. In the absence of any policy this could be construed as theft. The paper and ink belong to the company. He used company property to produce an "offensive" poem.

 

[Newchodge]

I think people are perhaps missing the point. The OP PRINTED a document AT HIS PLACE OF WORK. In the absence of any policy this could be construed as theft. The paper and ink belong to the company. He used company property to produce an "offensive" poem.

Yes, and possibly using work time to look it up and later sit reading it. However, as the OP was meeting their manager on Monday and has not been back for advice, perhaps we can assume case closed?

 

[Jeff Nev]

I would imagine it was just a slap on the wrist at the most.

 

[tony84]

I think people are perhaps missing the point. The OP PRINTED a document AT HIS PLACE OF WORK. In the absence of any policy this could be construed as theft. The paper and ink belong to the company. He used company property to produce an "offensive" poem.

That was my thinking.

If anyone has stolen it is the OP.

I am so glad I am out of office politics. No brown nosers and no managers making a mountain out of sod all. If they make anything out of this, it will be to make an example of you for using company ink probably. All sounds a bit petty.

If you have a dress down day on a friday I feel like you should go and stand over your colleague wearing this. If your going to get a disciplinary at least do it in style.

 

[Newchodge]

That was my thinking.

If anyone has stolen it is the OP.

I am so glad I am out of office politics. No brown nosers and no managers making a mountain out of sod all. If they make anything out of this, it will be to make an example of you for using company ink probably. All sounds a bit petty.

If you have a dress down day on a friday I feel like you should go and stand over your colleague wearing this. If your going to get a disciplinary at least do it in style.

Presumably the disciplinary would be for bad spelling. Write out one hundred times "Stitches has 2 T's"

 

[Mr D]

That was my thinking.

If anyone has stolen it is the OP.

I am so glad I am out of office politics. No brown nosers and no managers making a mountain out of sod all. If they make anything out of this, it will be to make an example of you for using company ink probably. All sounds a bit petty.

If you have a dress down day on a friday I feel like you should go and stand over your colleague wearing this. If your going to get a disciplinary at least do it in style.

Ah office politics.
Fun times.

Yes, don't miss having office politics affect being able to do the job I came into work to do.

 

[Ian Smith]

Lol. Thanks for your input folks.

I was spoken to by the Senior Manager on Monday and he said that because a complaint has been raised against me, he has to conduct an investigation. He asked me to put together a statement of facts from my perspective and said he will try to resolve the matter within 5 working days. I handed it to him yesterday.

Off the record though, he told me he's just going to give me a slap on the wrist and to learn a lesson from it. I'm hoping the case will be resolved by mid next week.

I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Ian Smith]

I forgot to add that he said he was happy for me to remain at work while he carries out his investigation.

 

[Mr D]

I forgot to add that he said he was happy for me to remain at work while he carries out his investigation.

Sounds like an OK company then. Dealing with complaints raised by members of staff is important. Can think of a couple of companies known to have brushed complaints by staff under the floor.

 

[Newchodge]

What was the complaint that was raised?

 

[The Byre]

Exactly how inflammatory was this 'poem'?

This!

What the hell was so damn offensive???

And just for the record, I am when it comes to swearing and similar activities, head-and-shoulders the most 'offensive' person in the building. The only thing I will not put up with, as far as holding unacceptable political views is concerned, is right-wing extremism.

As for the OP's senior manager - unless this was a poem praising Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot (or worse still, Donald Trump) I would give that person a severe dressing down and a warning not to waste company time (and therefore money) on idiotic crap like this!

 

[Mr D]

This!

What the hell was so damn offensive???

And just for the record, I am when it comes to swearing and similar activities, head-and-shoulders the most 'offensive' person in the building. The only thing I will not put up with, as far as holding unacceptable political views is concerned, is right-wing extremism.

As for the OP's senior manager - unless this was a poem praising Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot (or worse still, Donald Trump) I would give that person a severe dressing down and a warning not to waste company time (and therefore money) on idiotic crap like this!

Wasn't Adolf a member of a left wing party? And Pol Pot was pretty left wing what with being general secretary of the communist party where he was.

 

[Mr D]

Only an uneducated prat would believe that, as the Nazis called themselve National Socialists, their policies were socialist. Bit like a party calling itself ** Democratic ** banning elections and calling themselves democratic!

So when the party got representatives into office, when they got the voters to believe they were socialist, when the party members believed the party were socialist, when the party implemented socialist policies when they came to power - they were not in your opinion socialist?

Oh yes that's right they did not practice true socialism according to you. If it looks like a duck, calls itself a duck, gets people to believe it's a duck and quacks - then to an outsider they can be considered in reality a duck. No matter if the Faithful do not consider them a 'real' duck.

No idea why you equate other politicians elsewhere in different groups with Germany in 1930s. No relevance.

 

[Mr D]

Name a single socialist policy implemented by the Nazis. As I said, uneducated prat.

Still apparently more educated about Germany in the 1930s than you.

Take a look at Germany in early 1930s. Look at the conditions.
Then take a close look at the next 5 years. Notice any changes?

Look at the policies. Oh wait they will not fit your reality will they as they are not done by a 'true' socialist government.

 

[Mr D]

Name a single socialist policy implemented by the Nazis. As I said, uneducated prat.

Sorry had to run do some emergency sewing.

How about expansion of social health insurance (which already existed for some decades prior but for only part of the workers).
Midwives and childcare workers? Retirees? They were brought into the program only after Hitler came to power.
Or is access to healthcare not a socialist policy?

As I recall Bismarck introduced what at the time was a radical new system of healthcare for the ordinary people. A socialist policy, not what Bismarck was noted for prior to that. Took many years to get to where it is today. We didn't get anywhere close in Modern Britain until 60 years later.
I'm sure even in the world of awaiting 'true' socialism you have heard of how good German medical services were? I am guessing you have some education.

 

[kulture]

I have removed all the off topic posts. Even the rather informative one about Bismark. This thread is about EMPLOYMENT and a disciplinary. I am disappointed that it descended into name calling and personal attacks.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

I have removed all the off topic posts.

.

Awww before I got a chance to read them too...