Demotion - Pitfalls

[SillyBill]

Had some good advice on a separate staff issue before on here so thought I'd post this one. Be interested to see what others would do/HR protocol?

Background: There is a "part" of my business that hasn't been "core" since about 2009, it can actually be a bit of a distraction, not actively promoted but as long as a few customers want to keep giving us some money we've kept it ticking over. I guess at its peak (difficult to say exactly as some crossover) it had about 4 full timers staffing it. One "supervisor" and 3 operatives. Supervisor on £30k per year, operatives £20k.

Fast forward to 2020 this is now down to one supervisor. The role is now reduced down to any other operative level role in the factory given there is no supervision or indeed independent thought required, it is some basic manufacture and pick and pack. I can't make this "job" redundant as it still needs doing but the level of seniority is no longer required and is redundant. There is nobody or nothing to supervise. How do we go about tackling this? Stuck in two minds as I have loyalty to the guy (business hat off for a second), worked for me for a long time (27 years, joined us as 16 year old) but at the same time it is causing issues. Staff resentment builds (as most employers will understand) when tongues wag about what such and such gets for the same level of responsibility.

At times it can feel like flogging a dead horse to provide a job and whether I should just the can the whole sideshow altogether. Above his salary it nets the business £20k, the max therefore I could get out of it would be £30k/yr presuming I paid someone £20k to do the low level work that needed doing. Despite liking this guy as a straight up hard worker he is a militant union type (father trade unionist) so I know I'll be in for a ride. I think what actually bothers me more now is the impact it can have on staff morale in the wider business, I worked hard to get wage structures in place to incentivise staff for responsibilities and this one throws the shopfloor off balance.

 

[STDFR33]

Can you bring an operative over to that side of the business and move him over to the other side where he will have responsibilities more in line with his pay?

You say he’s a hard worker. If he has worked for you for that length of time (part of which managing staff) he’s obviously also competent. I’d be reluctant to try and get shut of such an employee regardless of the union background and would be trying to find a way to accommodate them.

 

[SillyBill]

Can you bring an operative over to that side of the business and move him over to the other side where he will have responsibilities more in line with his pay?

You say he’s a hard worker. If he has worked for you for that length of time (part of which managing staff) he’s obviously also competent. I’d be reluctant to try and get shut of such an employee regardless of the union background and would be trying to find a way to accommodate them.

Thanks for the reply. I have given that some thought and my conclusion was when things aren't broke (in other areas) don't attempt to fix it. I think moving him into other areas of the business which are settled, well-staffed, everybody fairly content with their level and role (so far as one can be) parachuting someone into an area they weren't needed yesterday might do more damage than good.

I would also say the chap (and this is as much our/my fault) is a little "old dog new tricks" now. Not worked for a different employer before, set in his ways, not really had to think outside of a very narrow brief for 30 years.... I think he would struggle outside of our business and indeed if moving him into another role within it. I accept my part in creating that FWIW but I think it is an accurate reflection of where we're at. As you may pick up it is a bit of a moral dilemma - I would like to do right by him ultimately but the current situation needs to be tackled, I've kicked it into the long grass for a couple of years now as convenient for me not to look at it.

 

[STDFR33]

Any scope to provide additional training where he could help the wider business without treading on toes and substantiating his salary?

 

[SillyBill]

Any scope to provide additional training where he could help the wider business without treading on toes and substantiating his salary?

Maybe. It ought to be reviewed. One area we're not great on a business is training (to say the least). That is something I wanted us to look at in 2021 anyway. Possibly this needs to start with a conversation of where I am at and perhaps see if he has any ideas. I think it may come as a bit of a bombshell to him if I am not careful given (quite understandable) he has been a little sheltered from change. My instinct would be he will need his hand held closely.

 

[STDFR33]

Maybe. It ought to be reviewed. One area we're not great on a business is training (to say the least). That is something I wanted us to look at in 2021 anyway. Possibly this needs to start with a conversation of where I am at and perhaps see if he has any ideas. I think it may come as a bit of a bombshell to him if I am not careful given (quite understandable) he has been a little sheltered from change. My instinct would be he will need his hand held closely.

Hopefully I’ve given you a couple of thoughts to ponder.

It does seem like the business has moved on but left this particular employee behind. You either bring him up to speed and use to benefit the business or look to make the position redundant. Given what you’ve said about the employee, I’d be leaning to the former rather than the latter but you know your employee and the business far more than we do.

Edit - whilst you consider the resentment of other employees, have you consider how they would feel about their job security and your thoughts towards long standing staff members should you look to let them go? People are fickle, and the other employees views could change very quickly depending on what course of action you take.

 

[SillyBill]

Hopefully I’ve given you a couple of thoughts to ponder.
Edit - whilst you consider the resentment of other employees, have you consider how they would feel about their job security and your thoughts towards long standing staff members should you look to let them go? People are fickle, and the other employees views could change very quickly depending on what course of action you take.

I think that would be a fair description (left behind). In honesty I am not as motivated in some of these areas as I used to be, these days I want a quiet life with minimum hassle so I can leave areas of the business which need my attention if I don't fancy getting my hands dirty. Since 2017 and a potential sale (didn't happen in the end) I have been more energised to tackle some of these issues (sorted another one out earlier this year) and I'd like to get them all put in order so I can have another shot of moving myself out over the next 2-3 years.

I am not sure if it is just my place but if I so much as give an extra midget gem to one member of staff and it gets out (it always does) I have people in my office 10 minutes later crying wolf as to bias. To be honest the grievance of a handful of employees every review process about how much this guy earns and wanting this conversation closed is as much a driver to this as anything. IME factory floors are very catty environments when it comes to money, some of the "complaints" I've had is really kindergarten stuff. So there is also that risk in not doing anything about the current imbalance and having unmotivated staff elsewhere. Sometimes it is damned if you do, damned if you don't, or can feel that way anyway!

 

[Mr D]

Yes look at training in your business. Can be very useful.
In particular regarding him - replace him as has been said with an operative.
And look at what this guy can be trained to do.

Widen his scope - can be become a deputy for you? Can he work on strategic side, producing figures and working on plans? Can he move on to new roles in the company with eventually being the general manager?

Sometimes people respond to a challenge. Sometimes they can surprise others by growing from their previous role.
Just need opportunity and training.

 

[AstEver]

It shows that workforce planning, talent management and learning & development do matter. If you are still not managing them perhaps you should start. Once done you should see what options you have. I think that it is the best approach here i.e. do the management that has been neglected, plan for the future and you should clearly see what options you have.

If you conduct proper business planning what is the next business's development goal and what role the employee can play in it and what learning interventions are needed?

Since you have been downsizing the function for a while, for how long are you going to keep it before you will need to close it all together?

If there are no options for the employee then you need to have a difficult conversation and offer them the best support you can for some time.

You also mentioned the staff's resentment. This is a problem in general and you need to address it or else it will be festering and growing.

 

[SillyBill]

It shows that workforce planning, talent management and learning & development do matter. If you are still not managing them perhaps you should start. Once done you should see what options you have. I think that it is the best approach here i.e. do the management that has been neglected, plan for the future and you should clearly see what options you have.

If you conduct proper business planning what is the next business's development goal and what role the employee can play in it and what learning interventions are needed?

Since you have been downsizing the function for a while, for how long are you going to keep it before you will need to close it all together?

If there are no options for the employee then you need to have a difficult conversation and offer them the best support you can for some time.

You also mentioned the staff's resentment. This is a problem in general and you need to address it or else it will be festering and growing.

Thanks for your reply. To give you the background of where this is at, even I would recognize I am not the future which is obviously an issue. What I am trying to do now is clear up some of (my) unfinished business to allow the best possible success for the changing of the guard (preferably management buyout). Certain long term issues ought to be addressed be me where I have created them. The business is 140 years old (that means a lot to me), it owes me absolutely nothing, every day for the last 5 years or so at least I genuinely go into work for the staff and my life long (to date) commitment to keep this historic UK manufacturing business going.

Since you have been downsizing the function for a while, for how long are you going to keep it before you will need to close it all together?

That business would stick around as long as I stay at the helm, I reckon it could go when I go (no real loss to the business as it makes up less than 3% of our net profit), it is something I do (largely) for another business owner that has been a drinking buddy for years. We used to work together. He is loyal to me and I am to him. This is why I am motivated to sort it so it either stands on its own 2 feet for people to pick up the baton and is sustainable or I have to the conversations with all.

 

[Talay]

Not quite in your territory but certainly tangential, I have an employee who used to work in production but who now works in retail. This was as one part of the business evolved and after some reluctance, I doubt the employee would relish the harder production working role once again, if it were to be offered, which it will not be.

However, at the time of changing, they were earning 40% above the retail staff. As retail wages move largely as a function of NMW movements, that gap has been reduced. The employee said some time ago that they would not look to move as they could not get their current wages in retail anywhere else. That remains true.

However, it is my decision to retain them on their current wage until the retail wages we pay in that area increase to a level where all wages will move ahead together.

I suspect they acknowledge that, though we have not openly discussed it as the gap is still quite significant but I believe we are both quietly on the same page.

This may not work for you but you have no obligation to increase his pay and if he cannot add more value somewhere, then either you face the music and pay him off or you risk leaving him to rot. I suspect in your case, the former may be a better decision.

 

[Plumb Spares Direct]

I'm very late to this but couldn't you sell that part of the business to your drinking buddy and that employee goes with it?

 

[kulture]

I'm very late to this but couldn't you sell that part of the business to your drinking buddy and that employee goes with it?

Very late does not describe it. This is a two year old thread, hopefully long resolved.

 

[MBE2017]

I was just posting and saw kultures reply. I must check dates more often.

 

[Plumb Spares Direct]

Very late does not describe it. This is a two year old thread, hopefully long resolved.

Very late does not describe it. This is a two year old thread, hopefully long resolved.

Nice friendly forum!

 

[SillyBill]

Should anyone be interested as see the thread went live again, not much changed but I guess rampant inflation since I posted this has made this less of an issue now, salary held and others moved therefore given our basic operatives are on about £24k from next year, the "problem" is inflating itself away in one sense. Also a contract which feeds this comes up in May (5 yearly), I am not going to be fighting for it to be renewed, if it does, we continue as we are, if it doesn't I make a redundancy and marginally I make a tiny bit less per year for a lot less work. Probably preferential for me personally but I have enough loyalty to the worker to keep a job going if it means just keeping it ticking it over, particularly in these times.