Covid FOI Request Results

Scubadog

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Strange then that Scottish Water is a statutory corporation that provides water and sewerage services across Scotland, accountable to the public through the Scottish Government. There have been no reports of sewage entering Scottish rivers and coatal waters..



Oh.....really?




Perhaps worth reading the third paragraph. The part where Scottish water themselves (the same you lord as fantastic) state that building larger assets will not stop sewage entering rivers.....the very same thing I have been saying this morning!


?


I shall just leave these here for your perusal. State owned, operated with no profits, at the cost of residents and still struggling with the same problemes....perhaps a little inconvenient for your argument?

Just remind me.....who pays for the fines incurred by Scottish water?


 
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Scubadog

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You have mentioned this a number of times in the past and it is just wrong.

Doctor is a title. In the UK anyone who is on the General Medical Council Register can call themselves doctor, as can anyone who has a PhD and has never seen a stethoscope. Every doctor, except those who have clinical authority works under the supervision of another doctor until they reach the one with clinical authority. That is, Hospital Consultants and General Practitioners.

GP training is identical to that of every other specialist until the end of hospital-based Foundation training. It then takes a further 3 years, GPs can and do treat many conditions as well as referring for further hospital-based treatment if necessary. Numericall, most medical treatment is carried out by GPs.

I accept that the NHS needs reform, but every reform that has taken place since I first worked for the BMA in 1980 has added bureaucracy and management levels and done nothing to improve the real structure. The problem is getting to wehere it needs to be while still providing a service. Adopting US style private health care will not help.

Why won't implementing private health care solve problems?
 
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Scubadog

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Strange then that Scottish Water is a statutory corporation that provides water and sewerage services across Scotland, accountable to the public through the Scottish Government. There have been no reports of sewage entering Scottish rivers and coatal waters..



This one made me laugh.....

Scottish water (their own data) is investing less than any other water company you can cite in capital assets. By best comparison I can draw, less than 1/3rd each year.



Their charges are approximately 80% of the most expensive (wessex water) in the UK.

So you pay the same...you get less investment with all the same risks of prosecution.


So ummm.....you say this is the model you want to adopt everywhere?
 
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Scubadog

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Strange then that Scottish Water is a statutory corporation that provides water and sewerage services across Scotland, accountable to the public through the Scottish Government. There have been no reports of sewage entering Scottish rivers and coatal waters..



And all those issues highlighted in the sewage system....you would have thought the example you have used as the evidence that public utilities are the way forward would at least have a better track record when it comes to drinking water quality, when clearly they have the same issues with sewage as private utilities.....wouldn't you?


Ermmm that's a nope there as well....
Worst water quality in the UK....




But you are happy with that....right?
 
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Privatisation is not about it being insurance based and regulated.
Er, yes, it is!
Privatisation is about getting a US style system where people go bankrupt trying to pay their medical bills and people die because their insurance does not cover their treatable condition while provate health care companies make billions in profits.
That is because huge chunks of the health care system in the US are not regulated.

In those states where it is regulated or in those schemes where state regulation kicks in, it works remarkably well. HMOs do not get a good press very often - but they actually work! City-based schemes like the one in San Antonio costs $360 per month per family (less than half the cost of the NHS for a two-person household) and covers all hospital care but no OTC treatments. An old army buddy of mine spent a year in hospital under that scheme - own room, perfect and timely treatment.

So why was he in hospital? Because when he was here in the UK, he went to the local GP with chest pains and tingling in his arms and shortness of breath. 'Bronchitis!' said the GP and gave him some pills.

Months later he was in San Antonio and his US wife had signed them up to the city care programme (at the time just $240 a month). He was with his wife when he collapsed on the street just six months after seeing that GP.

He was put on all the various machines that go 'Ping!' and his wife Cindy was called. "It's serious. About six months ago, your husband had a severe heart attack." She was shown the graph on the ECG.

The doctors could not believe that a person with a medical qualification could miss the obvious signs. They also wondered at the fact that he was not immediately put on an ECG.

My mate spent a year in hospital and his wife could stay with him in his room as long and as often as she wanted to. He made it to their new home outside San Antonio where he died a few weeks later. His ashes are in our orchard.

I could site case after case like that. Yes, the NHS does provide appropriate care - but for every case they get right, there is another that they get wrong. Badly wrong. And usually with life-altering consequences for the victims.

That is the true cost of state-run health care.
__________________________

I do disagree with the sentiment that private is always better. There are public functions that are and must remain governmental. Police, the military, prisons, courts are typical functions that are the expected functions of state.

I also disagree profoundly with sudden change as this ALWAYS comes with economic costs - and the more sudden the changes, the higher the costs always are. We saw this with the lunatic nationalisation of industry after the war and the equally lunatic privatisation under Thatcher.

Adopting US style private health care will not help.
That is a strawman argument. Only a fool would suggest that we have the chaos that is the US system - some parts brilliant and others non-existent. US health care is always being paraded as the boo-man that we all must avoid.

I can only speak for the German system as that is the only one I know properly and have studied. It is CHEAPER than the NHS, it provides effective and timely healthcare and despite all the pressures of C19 and the immigration of millions of refugees, manages to have the second-best health outcomes in Europe.

That system is regulated by the state, but it is not owned and run by the state. The doctors and the clinics and hospitals are privately run and are paid by the treatment and not for just existing. Nearly all hospitals and clinics are either charities or are not-for-profit companies or societies.

The state is not the answer to every problem. Very often, it is the problem. Certainly, that has been proven by the near-total collapse of the NHS.

History has shown us repeatedly that the UK economy can carry a public sector that accounts for 35% of the economy. That is pretty high, but provides us with roads and schools and all the other bits and pieces that we expect Papa State to provide. Every time we have gone above 35% of GDP, the economy flat-lines and then, as state spending increases, GDP falls - and with that fall, tax revenues also fall!

Catch 22 as they say!

A similar figure applies to every other economy on Planet Earth. Spend too little and GDP falls, Spend too much and GDP falls. Somewhere between 20% and 35% is the right place to be - and where that place is, depends on the social structure of that society. (And that is one giant and complex field of study!)

The UK public sector right now is 53% of GDP.

Yes, over half the economy is public spending. That is borrowing from future generations on a grand scale. That is madness! That is suicidal!

Total government expenditure (FY 20-21) was £1.115 trillion. GDP, £2.1 trillion.

It was 35% and then the idiot Johnson took over and tried to solve every problem with uncontrolled Papa State spending. That is the very worst thing he could have done.

He can't raise taxes because it will slow down the economy (even more!) and that reduces tax revenues. If inflation continues to rise, the government will not be able to cover interest payments (now even higher than defense spending). A real energy crisis is coming and coming soon!

Johnson and his schoolboy chancellor are going to crash the economy and then see how much Papa State can spend on the NHS!

I shall watch developments with interest and a wry smile!
 
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DontAsk

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192/448.1 = 42.8% for year 2021 IF you include most of social care

1. Headlines​

Total HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) receipts for April 2021 to November 2021 are £448.1 billion, which is £106.8 billion higher than in the same period a year earlier.


COST (note this is entire dept of health and social care and it will be £170bn in 22/3)​


Extrapolate the tax figure to a full year and try again.

Oh, and thanks for proving my point :)
 
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Scubadog

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Number of people who died between March 2020 and September 2021 attributed solely to Covid-19 was approximately 17,000.

Of those, approximately 3,500 were under 65.

Average age 82.5. Higher than life expectancy in the UK.

Estimated number of excess Cancer deaths 50,000.

Just for info.


Of course to use such statistics without the rest if the numbers is frankly laughable. You clearly don't u derstand stats....so rather than asking s all questions to big things you don't understand....I will ask one question that you should be abel to answer, to help you realise how stupid this post is.


So...excess cancer deaths....caused by what?

Is it those vaccinated who ha e broken the link between infections and hospitalisation....or is it caused by those who refuse to take the vaccine who now make up the majority of those admitted to hospitals, requiring resources that, well could be spent on clearing those excess cancer numbers?


What I wonder is this...given YOUR concern for cancer, presumably you would support those who have no been vaccinated, are refused access to hospitals, should they catch covid and require medical assistance.

You know....since currently, its those people taking the resources for the very thing you are concerned about.....unnecessarily
 
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Scubadog

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Erm - caused by an unhealthy obsession with a virus which meant half the population (read almost all GP’s) working from home?

Right....

So think about it Simon.....
Give the fa t that when someone catches covid, they will be iff work, sick, for at least a week.....can you think of any way to help reduce the number of NHS staff that are like to be off sick?

Come on....surely even you can manage to engage enough grey cells to see this one?

Alternatively.....what's your suggestion? Everyone go back to normal?
What happens in that instance, when an entire GP surgery goes down with covid?
What happens when a GP passes covid onto the 70 already sixk people they see that day?


Seriously......have you even given this some thought, like at all?
 
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simon field

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Right....

So think about it Simon.....
Give the fa t that when someone catches covid, they will be iff work, sick, for at least a week.....can you think of any way to help reduce the number of NHS staff that are like to be off sick?

Come on....surely even you can manage to engage enough grey cells to see this one?

Alternatively.....what's your suggestion? Everyone go back to normal?
What happens in that instance, when an entire GP surgery goes down with covid?
What happens when a GP passes covid onto the 70 already sixk people they see that day?


Seriously......have you even given this some thought, like at all?
Have a think. Do you honestly believe that people can ‘control the virus’?

Can you not see how mad that sounds?
 
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fisicx

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Have a think. Do you honestly believe that people can ‘control the virus’?

Can you not see how mad that sounds?
It’s worked for many years with other viruses. Polio being one very good example.
 
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simon field

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Well...yea, as has been evident from the results of the last 2 years.

What's your alternative suggestion?
Evident where?

Alternative suggestion: we knew early on who the vulnerable people were, by all means shield/take sensible precautions but ruin the economy, education, by locking down perfectly healthy people?

Nah.
 
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So here are the actual figures for C19 for the whole of the UK - I have taken the UK figures for the whole period and projected forward for a two-year time frame. So these are roughly what we shall have by April.

Total deaths involving C19 154,000 recorded so far.
Total deaths caused solely by C19 25,000 by April.

These are the figures for influenza for a typical two year period, based on the figures from the ONS, plus the figures from the Scottish and NI NHS departments -

Deaths involving influenza 500,000.
Deaths solely caused by influenza 70,000.
 
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simon field

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So here are the actual figures for the whole of the UK - I have taken the UK figures for the whole period and projected forward for a two-year time frame. So these are roughly what we shall have by April.

Total deaths involving C19 154,000 recorded so far.
Total deaths caused solely by C19 25,000 by April.

These are the figures for a typical two year period, based on the figures from the ONS, plus the figures from the Scottish and NI NHS departments -

Deaths involving influenza 500,000.
Deaths solely caused by influenza 70,000.
I would be interested to hear @Scubadog explain why we don’t ruin the economy for flu.

*drum roll whilst tapping fingers on desk*
 
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Scubadog

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So here are the actual figures for C19 for the whole of the UK - I have taken the UK figures for the whole period and projected forward for a two-year time frame. So these are roughly what we shall have by April.

Total deaths involving C19 154,000 recorded so far.
Total deaths caused solely by C19 25,000 by April.

These are the figures for influenza for a typical two year period, based on the figures from the ONS, plus the figures from the Scottish and NI NHS departments -

Deaths involving influenza 500,000.
Deaths solely caused by influenza 70,000.

What would the deaths from covid have been without all the measures taken?

That, is the question you are missing

All those number suggest, is that the restrictions and actions everyone took...worked!

Well done for answering simons question for him.


In working out your statistics and presenting them as fact.....what was your Null hypothesis?
 
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Scubadog

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Evident where?

Alternative suggestion: we knew early on who the vulnerable people were, by all means shield/take sensible precautions but ruin the economy, education, by locking down perfectly healthy people?

Nah.

Evidence by the arguably low 150,000 number of deaths.

So, just carry on as normal?

Out if interest, when a team of staff, working to keep your critical infrastructure working, catch covid, due to your "no restrictions wo do you think keeps that assets running?
 
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IanSuth

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Extrapolate the tax figure to a full year and try again.

Oh, and thanks for proving my point :)
I wasnt particularly arguing the point - i was providing the figures asked for


My personal opinion having a mate who benefitted greatly from the German system when the army conveniently lost his medical notes (the civilian hospital nr Paderborn had copies). The NHS is good at delivering care where it can but it is terrible at provisioning that care because it has 80 years of tinkering by successive governments who all thought they could make it more efficient. The same as your phone/pc gets slower and slower as all the updates gradually slow the OS, the NHS is just weighed down by that

The actual amount of money is a little irrelevant - as it is regularly stated the NHS is the greatest employer - money that the gov give to the NHS to pay staff who then pay x% of that back as tax and NI makes the number hard to really fathom in terms of what the net outflow is

If we had a guarantee any privatisation would be into a not for profit German style system I wouldn't have an issue, but all indications it will be towards a "for profit" model and I am far form convinced the savings would be enough to cover the profit required and also improve outcomes, 1 would have to give in the short to medium (up to 20 yrs) and i doubt that would be profit
 
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Financial-Modeller

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Privatisation is not about it being insurance based and regulated. Privatisation is about getting a US style system where people go bankrupt trying to pay their medical bills and people die because their insurance does not cover their treatable condition while provate health care companies make billions in profits.

Privatisation has worked so well in the utilities and the rail service here hasn't it? It is doing particularly well in the water industry where shareholders have received billions in dividends and there has been no investment in infrastructure so raw sewage is regularly discharged into the rivers. That has worked well, hasn't it?
A fairly narrow view of privatisation there. There is no reason not to operate healthcare privately on a not-for-profit basis where it can be done privately better than under state ownership.

Also, I know this may not accord with your economic utopia, but do you understand why utilities and rail services were privatised?

Whilst they continue to have well-publicised and unarguable failings, under public ownership, they were so utterly incompetent and inefficient that privatisation seemed like the only way to avoid complete failue of both.
 
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Newchodge

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    A fairly narrow view of privatisation there. There is no reason not to operate healthcare privately on a not-for-profit basis where it can be done privately better than under state ownership.

    Also, I know this may not accord with your economic utopia, but do you understand why utilities and rail services were privatised?

    Whilst the continue to have well-publicised and unarguable failings, under public ownership, they were so utterly incompetent and inefficient that privatisation seemed like the only way to avoid complete failue of both.
    I remember the utilities and rail privatisations. The bit you may forget is the years prior to privatisation when they were starved of funds, making them appear to be incompetent failures.

    With regard to privatisation to a not for profit organisaiton, I agree I have discounted it. Generally the only privatisations that have happened have been to profit-based organisations. Not for profits have stepped in to provide a service when the state has stopped providing it - welfare benefit advice, for example, but generally when any government has privatised it has been to profit-demanding organisations.
     
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    simon field

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    Evidence by the arguably low 150,000 number of deaths.

    So, just carry on as normal?

    Out if interest, when a team of staff, working to keep your critical infrastructure working, catch covid, due to your "no restrictions wo do you think keeps that assets running?
    You’re correct that it’s arguable.

    Remember Neil ‘500,000 deaths if we do nothing’ Ferguson?

    Did anyone - including myself - ever state that we should ‘do nothing’?

    No. It was the correct thing to do to shield the vulnerable until we knew what we were dealing with. Not plonk them back into care homes without a care in the world.

    A third of the rest of us had no symptoms at all, ie, next to no chance of transmission.

    For the vast majority of the remaining positive ‘cases’ were typically mild.

    Why do you think all these draconian restrictions on peoples lives made any difference whatsoever to how
    many people died with (not of) C19?
     
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    Which did not support the assertion about the % of taxation spent on the NHS, hence proving my point that he figure quoted was wrong. It was based on full year NHS spending compared to a partial tax year.
    Nobody really knows what the true cost of the NHS is. The system really is that chaotic!

    I came up with $3400 for 2018 after several days of back-calculating the figures and trying to single out extraneous factors that had F-all to do with health care. The German figure of $3340 was on the front page of the AOK (Allgemeine Ortskrankenkasse) which is the largest health insurance society and is owned by local governments and is the system one joins if one is not eligible for one of the 75 other societies. The rates and payscales and contributions are uniform.

    What muddies the waters are all the other things that one tends to forget such as low UK payroll taxes and low NHS pay scales. The NHS pays its junior staff fairly poorly, but senior consultants and administrators get fantastic pay. Also, the use of temps and agency staff at high cost, caused by bottlenecks and inefficiencies adds unnecessary costs. Then there is bed-blocking, caused by a lack of care insurance.

    One of the main causes of inefficiencies is siloing. In some hospitals, it seems as if it is department v. department in some places. That can be staff refusing to work outside of their department or consultants refusing to take on patients from another department or duplicating work done already by an 'opposing' department.

    But there are other factors that keep German costs down, despite pay scales being more generous and staffing levels being higher and payroll taxes being far higher than in the UK -

    1. They are brutally efficient. When you are paid by the treatment, you'll be amazed at the number of patients that a specialist can see in a day. And if an operation brings €10k for your hospital and puts €700 in the surgeon's pocket, That surgeon is going to get through as many in one day as they can and that hospital is going to make damn sure that the surgeon just performs the core surgery and moves to the op theatre next door where the next patient is already anesthetised and ready to rock!

    2. There are several massive volunteer organisations. Every emergency service has a huge army of volunteers they can call upon - and these are people who train vigorously every month. Every able-bodied person is expected to volunteer for something, even if it is just helping out at the local school or kindergarten. When I broke three ribs at work, the ambulance that took me to hospital was there within five minutes and was driven and manned by unpaid volunteers. Every emergency service from the coastguard to the police, from the fire service to the red cross ambulance service, is backed up by an even bigger army of trained volunteers.

    3. Many of the hospitals are run by churches or charities and many of the menial and lower admin tasks are done by monks, nuns or volunteers - so it is not unusual to see a nun mopping the floor or a monk wheeling patients around. Many hospitals are run by an attached university, which also brings economic advantages.

    4. Doctors are usually attached to a nearby hospital, but run their own clinics that are in effect highly efficient out-patient clinics capable of minor operations and other treatments. They will have all the toys (X-ray, ECGs and all the other toys relevant to their specialties) as these are also sources of additional revenue.
    _____________________________________

    But I would throw the entire question of what to do about the NHS right back into the faces of those who pose the question - what are YOU going to do about the NHS and its inability to function?

    Start with yourself. Stop eating and drinking stuff that came out of a factory. No boozing, no fags and no vaping. Get outside and do some physical work. Move out of towns and cities.

    And if you want to change the system, join a political party. You ain't gonna change F-all from the outside, carping on about how bad things are and that all politicians are idiots. Stand for office, even if it is just being a local party official. Speak at party conferences. Voice your opinions there where it matters! If you are on the committee that decides who gets put forward as candidate for parliament or the council, then your opinions will matter a great deal.
     
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    thetiger2015

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    And if you want to change the system, join a political party. You ain't gonna change F-all from the outside, carping on about how bad things are and that all politicians are idiots. Stand for office, even if it is just being a local party official. Speak at party conferences. Voice your opinions there where it matters! If you are on the committee that decides who gets put forward as candidate for parliament or the council, then your opinions will matter a great deal.


    Have you ever been to a local council meeting? There is absolutely no room for visionaries...

    Some of our local councillors have sat there for decades, doing the square root of nought. They get voted in by friends and family, it's a tried and tested method to get a feeling of power...usually over wheelie bin collections...but it's still power.

    When we do finally get someone younger in, they quickly abide by the rules. They keep their heads down. You won't hear from them for the next 10 years or more. They've got what they wanted, they're not about to lose it by arguing with the elders on the council.

    As for the NHS, it is deliberately opaque because of the growing tentacles of privatisation. NHS Dentists? They're usually private but get allocated paid hours to deal with NHS patients. Gradually, those hours are being shifted over to the private sector. So, we now pay more for things that cost a lot less previously, because you have to build in profit and administrative costs.

    I don't think the NHS should be required to do everything. I think it should be there for A&E and life saving treatments only. Less serious issues can be seen to privately or through some sort of voluntary service but it's now so complex, so huge, so confusing, nobody knows how to fix it. There's also the private companies getting their paws in, they will dictate what can and cannot be voluntary...they won't allow voluntary anything...they've already priced up every square inch of the services provided by the NHS.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Have you ever been to a local council meeting? There is absolutely no room for visionaries...

    Some of our local councillors have sat there for decades, doing the square root of nought. They get voted in by friends and family, it's a tried and tested method to get a feeling of power...usually over wheelie bin collections...but it's still power.

    When we do finally get someone younger in, they quickly abide by the rules. They keep their heads down. You won't hear from them for the next 10 years or more. They've got what they wanted, they're not about to lose it by arguing with the elders on the council.

    As for the NHS, it is deliberately opaque because of the growing tentacles of privatisation. NHS Dentists? They're usually private but get allocated paid hours to deal with NHS patients. Gradually, those hours are being shifted over to the private sector. So, we now pay more for things that cost a lot less previously, because you have to build in profit and administrative costs.

    I don't think the NHS should be required to do everything. I think it should be there for A&E and life saving treatments only. Less serious issues can be seen to privately or through some sort of voluntary service but it's now so complex, so huge, so confusing, nobody knows how to fix it. There's also the private companies getting their paws in, they will dictate what can and cannot be voluntary...they won't allow voluntary anything...they've already priced up every square inch of the services provided by the NHS.
    I used to sit on a Transport Users forum as the motorcycling rep - when we got too good at putting our case (our input into the local transport plan was praised by a govt inspector) and we started reminding them of past promises and making the council actually do things it had agreed to do - they scrapped the forum (which cost just the hourly rate of the clerk who minuted it) and rolled it into the quarterly transport meeting allowing 3 short questions per meeting that had to be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance and were shared between all the 20 participants of the forum (included bus companies, local driving instructors association rep, cycling lobbies, green lobbies, disabled and pensioner groups), so most of us stopped going.
     
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    Scubadog

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    I remember the utilities and rail privatisations. The bit you may forget is the years prior to privatisation when they were starved of funds, making them appear to be incompetent failures.

    With regard to privatisation to a not for profit organisaiton, I agree I have discounted it. Generally the only privatisations that have happened have been to profit-based organisations. Not for profits have stepped in to provide a service when the state has stopped providing it - welfare benefit advice, for example, but generally when any government has privatised it has been to profit-demanding organisations.

    The reason utilities were underfunded, is due to the fa ttmhey had to compete against things, like the nhs for funding.

    Given you are asking for a £300billion additional funding in sewage treatement, on top if the £10billion annual investment, in top of the usual reve up costs...just put of interest, would you fund that, or the NHS? Cua you can't find both, and probably can't afford to fund either.

    Who would buy an asset, run a large corporation for no profit? I bet you work for a profit....it would be unreasonable to ask you not to make a profit, all for the benefit of the people you serve in your work.
     
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    DontAsk

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    Who would buy an asset, run a large corporation for no profit? I bet you work for a profit....it would be unreasonable to ask you not to make a profit, all for the benefit of the people you serve in your work.
    Depends what the profit is for. What benefit does it give to those who serve in their work? They've already been paid wages for doing so.

    Profit goes in the bank or is distributed to shareholders who have done nothing other than lend money to the company. It may be used for investment but that can be accounted for within the non-profit business.

    Non-profit is a perfectly reasonable and workable business model, depending on the situation.
     
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    Scubadog

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    Depends what the profit is for. What benefit does it give to those who serve in their work? They've already been paid wages for doing so.

    Profit goes in the bank or is distributed to shareholders who have done nothing other than lend money to the company. It may be used for investment but that can be accounted for within the non-profit business.

    Non-profit is a perfectly reasonable and workable business model, depending on the situation.

    So....you would be happy to put in your millions of pounds of investment for no return?

    Lol....that's a good one.

    Under what situation, could you forsee anyone paying hundreds of millions of pounds for a utility company, all to get nothing in return....or for any other public services organisations for that matter.


    One thing is for sure...you won't be getting g very good investors and I'm pretty sure the public won't be getting any further investment in their services.

    You are funny...
     
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    Scubadog

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    You’ve had all day now. Have you managed to come up with a single reason why we don’t ruin the economy for influenza?

    Because it isn't as transmissible as covid nd is much less likely to result in a death or serious hospitalisation.

    That's the only reason.

    What makes you believe influenza is less or similar risk to covid?

    Can you name 1 time in history when influenza had infected 1 in 15 people atany one time? Annddd GO!
     
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    Scubadog

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    Right....

    So think about it Simon.....
    Give the fa t that when someone catches covid, they will be iff work, sick, for at least a week.....can you think of any way to help reduce the number of NHS staff that are like to be off sick?

    Come on....surely even you can manage to engage enough grey cells to see this one?

    Alternatively.....what's your suggestion? Everyone go back to normal?
    What happens in that instance, when an entire GP surgery goes down with covid?
    What happens when a GP passes covid onto the 70 already sixk people they see that day?


    Seriously......have you even given this some thought, like at all?

    Come on Simon....you have had 24 hours and have failed to answer one question.

    You always dodge them....
     
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    Scubadog

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    Dec 7, 2021
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    They could borrow at an agreed rate. The interest payments would be a legitimate business expense.

    What's left after all expenses are paid is profit. Not difficult to structure the business to be non-profit.

    You are silly...

    So interest payments differe from dividends how?

    I'm guessing you don't have many investments.....certainly not any that make you any money. I feel sad for you. Heck...even my investments pay dividends, and I would wager most people on here who have pensions rely on dividends. Presumably you are in favour of them surrendering their divs in return for a meter "agreed interest".

    I also note you are suggesting interest is a deductible business expense......so you acknowledge they will be making a profit.....do you understand how business account works?

    Let's see....can you name 1 business that is capital intensive, that operates successfully on that model?
     
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    alan1302

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    Jun 2, 2018
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    You’ve had all day now. Have you managed to come up with a single reason why we don’t ruin the economy for influenza?
    Because it's a known thing and most people have had it and their bodies are used to dealing with it. If it was new it would probably cause the same issues as Covid has done now...now we are getting to grips with it and know what affects it has on people the rules are being slowly taken away.
     
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    Can you name 1 time in history when influenza had infected 1 in 15 people atany one time?
    Well, that's a nice and easy one to answer - the 1918 flu pandemic. One-third of the world's population caught that H1N1 virus of avian origin and about one-tenth of them died. 500m infected and 50m died.

    Because it isn't as transmissible as covid nd is much less likely to result in a death or serious hospitalisation.
    Nope. Statistically, the Delta variant is about as dangerous as flu. The Omicron variant would appear to be much less dangerous, but no hard figures are available just yet. As 99% of all C19 infections right now in the UK are from Omicron, the figures for the next few weeks will be the true basis for any judgment.

    Most people confuse a bad cold (aka man-flu!) with genuine influenza, which can be an extremely dangerous illness. Flu is involved in the deaths of about 250,000 people in the UK every year and is the sole cause of death in 14% of those deaths.

    The Delta variant is the sole cause of death in 14% of all those who have died with C19 being involved.


    For both C19 (Delta variant) and influenza,, comorbidity is the real killer - of which anecdotal evidence so far would point mostly to obesity as being a major comorbidity factor.

    My personal conclusion - Both flu and C19 are to be taken very seriously, especially if the patient has any other health issues, no matter how trivial those issues may seem.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Because it isn't as transmissible as covid nd is much less likely to result in a death or serious hospitalisation.

    That's the only reason.

    What makes you believe influenza is less or similar risk to covid?

    Can you name 1 time in history when influenza had infected 1 in 15 people atany one time? Annddd GO!

    Spanish Flu killed 12m in India in 2018 but i don't know the population - guess that would be a % infected simultaneously
     
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    simon field

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    Feb 4, 2011
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    Because it isn't as transmissible as covid nd is much less likely to result in a death or serious hospitalisation.
    That's the only reason.

    What makes you believe influenza is less or similar risk to covid?

    Can you name 1 time in history when influenza had infected 1 in 15 people atany one time? Annddd GO!
    Spanish flu?

    If transmission is the only reason, then I guess we’re done.

    You can get on with some work now ?
     
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    Newchodge

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