Company BBL resulting in personal CIFAS marker

[Nowornever01]

Hello, I have received a CIFAS marker this weekend. My personal bank accounts have been shutdown and I no longer have access to a bank account.

Here is the timeline of events.

June 2020 - Applied for a BBL loan under my company account in July 2020 using projected earnings as my company was new and hadn't had a full year of accounts

August 2021 - Fell on hard times and essentially put the company on the backburner, had to get a full time job, moved back home with parents

October 2021- Compulsory strike-off notice by companies house

November 2021 - Compulsory strike-off removed by accountant

January 2022 - Accountant offered to do my accounts for free (through a friend) as he knew I didn't have the funds, he ended up not doing them

September 2021- May 2022 - Was working full time on min wage, also had multiple private loans needing to be paid off, was struggling under personal debt so continued to bury my head in the sand and put the company on the backburner

March 2023 - Final demand letter from HSBC

March 28th - Bounce back loan defaulted

Naively as I couldn't afford the min payment I assumed it would be sent to a debt collector, I've never tried to close my company account as I do want to restart my business eventually. On Thursday my personal accounts were shut down without warning and I've been informed by HSBC on letter I'll receive my balance as a cheque.

I request a CIFAS report and it says the below:

Product relating to the application, proposal, account or facility: Covid Loan - CBIL or BBL

Facility: Granted

Case type: Misuse of facility

Reason(s) for filing: Evasion of payment

Role played by the subject in the case: Company's proprietor

Cifas Filing: Misuse of facility – opening an account, insurance policy, or other facility for a fraudulent purpose or the fraudulent misuse of an account, policy, or facility; or the fraudulent misuse of insurance policy documentation

Delivery channel: Internet

Checks carried out by the member that confirmed the details were incorrect, or the party who confirmed that the details were not valid: Credit Reference Agency - payment performance data Contact with applicant Own records

I know burying my head in the sand was not wise, I don't even get letters for the business as they don't get scanned in by the mail forwarding company. But I don't believe I've committed fraud, I never fudged accounts to get the BBL and they were based on projections only, I didn't provide any documents either to get the BBL. I genuinely thought once it defaulted it would be passed on to a debt collector like a personal loan would.

Now I don't know what to do I feel like my life is ruined with the fraud marker on my account. When I spoke to HSBC business helpline for the default of the loan they said it wasn't linked, this is before I did the CIFAS request.

I'm surprised it is linked as I'm separate from my company as its a LLC.

Any advice would be really helpful as what to do next. Happy to pay someone once I get access to funds.

 

[Gyumri]

There are entities which for a fee might be able to assist. The site below sets out your options:

CIFAS Marker Removal Solicitor - Richardson Lissack

CIFAS is a laudable attempt by the financial services sector to fight fraud and identity theft by exchanging information fraudulent or misused activity...

www.richardsonlissack.co.uk

 

[Frank Wessely]

Hi, I think the problem stems from the BBL application being based on projected earnings rather than a percentage of actual turnover achieved which was one of the main criteria. Then combined with the default has led to this consequence. What are the references to the insurance policy?

However I suspect that your personal accounts may have been closed by reason of your association with the limited company. You are not personally liable for the BBL. Is the CIFAS notice against the company or you personally or both?

You should try opening a personal account at another bank and see whether any difficulties arise.

As for removing the CIFAS notice it took one of my clients 2 years to achieve this via his lawyer. If you would like an introduction to the lawyer please send me a private message.

Thanks.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

What happened to the BBL funds?

 

[Nowornever01]

Hi, I think the problem stems from the BBL application being based on projected earnings rather than a percentage of actual turnover achieved which was one of the main criteria. Then combined with the default has led to this consequence. What are the references to the insurance policy?

However I suspect that your personal accounts may have been closed by reason of your association with the limited company. You are not personally liable for the BBL. Is the CIFAS notice against the company or you personally or both?

You should try opening a personal account at another bank and see whether any difficulties arise.

As for removing the CIFAS notice it took one of my clients 2 years to achieve this via his lawyer. If you would like an introduction to the lawyer please send me a private message.

Thanks.

Hi Frank

It's not that.

They put reason for filing; evasion of payment, because the BBL defaulted.

See below:

https://i.ibb.co/t2Gk3ng/Screenshot-20230507-165139-4.png

The problem is everytime I ring up HSBC business they are saying I'm not personably liable as it's through the LLC yet I have a CIFAS. So they don't even know either what the bank is doing. Even in store I spoke to management and they were dumbfounded everyone I ring at HSBC didn't know why either.

I know some senior people at Barclays and they said they've never seen anything like it and don't understand the approach.

I don't have any correspondence from HSBC I pay for a mail scanning company and they have my email and mobile number.

It hasn't even gone to debt collectors.

Every lawyer I speak to says a default on a loan is not fraud and they haven't acted correctly.

I feel like my life is ruined. It's one thing to close the business account (which they haven't even done) but another thing to close my personal account with warning, I'm in a salaried job I don't even pay myself from my company I just wanted the loan to go to a debt collector as I wouldn't be able to afford the normal monthly payments.

 

[Nowornever01]

What happened to the BBL funds?

Hi Lisa, it was spent in the company on stock etc then eventually I ran out of cash to run the company.

I paid of immediate debts personally as they were transferred to me as I was a guarantor then I expected the BBL to go to debt collectors.

All the payments are above board there's no funny business of getting the loan and transferring it straight to my personal account.

 

[Nowornever01]

Luckily I have a bank account that I opened 6 months ago that I've been using but I'm so worried they are going to close it.

I'm going to have to fight the CIFAS marker but it doesn't help with the now.

 

[Nowornever01]

I spoke to https://mrbounceback.com
And he said it's been used as a scare tactic to shock me into responding which seems hard to believe.

He did say he's 99% sure I'll be able to remove it but I really have no idea what will happen.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Hi Lisa, it was spent in the company on stock etc then eventually I ran out of cash to run the company.

I paid of immediate debts personally as they were transferred to me as I was a guarantor then I expected the BBL to go to debt collectors.

All the payments are above board there's no funny business of getting the loan and transferring it straight to my personal account.

So did this make you a debtor of the company due to a directors loan account?

 

[Newchodge]

Have you considered sending a solicitor's letter alleging deframation? If veeryone is certain this is not appropriate it would seem an angle worth trying.

 

[allain2]

Hi there, can you please reply if you were successful to remove cifas? I am in same situation. Same scenario

 

[eteb3]

I feel like my life is ruined. It's one thing to close the business account (which they haven't even done) but another thing to close my personal account with warning

Chill out, your life isn't ruined! Not having access to a bank account is a suck in this society, but you will still get paid, you will still eat, and you will still pay your rent/mortgage.

Suggest you try a credit union. The accounts aren't full suite, but they're perfectly adequate.

In course of time you can get the CIFAS sorted.

 

[eteb3]

In case helpful, the CPS has clear guidance (if rather technical) on what constitutes fraud.

In each case:

• the defendant's conduct must be dishonest;
• his/her intention must be to make a gain; or cause a loss or the risk of a loss to another.
• No gain or loss needs actually to have been made.

The offence is broad, once dishonesty is proved. Dishonesty is a high bar to clear in the criminal courts, but CIFAS would only have to prove it on the balance of probability.

Additionally, it may be that CIFAS has qualified privilege, which is a defence to any libel:

1. where the person who makes the communication has a duty to its recipients and they have an interest in receiving it;
2. where it fairly and accurately reports public legal proceedings (they do not have to be published in a newspaper or be contemporaneous).

On 2, I take it your mail service would have forwarded letters from the court, at least, so you'd be aware of legal proceedings? Or not? But I guess they'd rely on 1.

Lastly, remember you have a right to a complete copy of all the data CIFAS hold on you. That may help show they have no grounds for alleging what they do.

 

[Newchodge]

In case helpful, the CPS has clear guidance (if rather technical) on what constitutes fraud.

The offence is broad, once dishonesty is proved. Dishonesty is a high bar to clear in the criminal courts, but CIFAS would only have to prove it on the balance of probability.

Additionally, it may be that CIFAS has qualified privilege, which is a defence to any libel:

On 2, I take it your mail service would have forwarded letters from the court, at least, so you'd be aware of legal proceedings? Or not? But I guess they'd rely on 1.

Lastly, remember you have a right to a complete copy of all the data CIFAS hold on you. That may help show they have no grounds for alleging what they do.

I think it has to be both. The fact that 1 applies is completely irrelevant if the informaiton published is false.

 

[fisicx]

Because you used a mail scanning service who appear to have failed to do just that you have made the problem worse.

If you had revived the letters you could have taken action. Because you effectively ignored all correspondence you left yourself open to legal proceedings.

The excuse that the scanning service didn’t send you the documents is not mitigation.

 

[ethical PR]

Hi Lisa, it was spent in the company on stock etc then eventually I ran out of cash to run the company.

I paid of immediate debts personally as they were transferred to me as I was a guarantor then I expected the BBL to go to debt collectors.

All the payments are above board there's no funny business of getting the loan and transferring it straight to my personal account.

So why didn't you pay back the loan?

 

[IanSuth]

OP was months ago - thread back at top as @allain2 was asking for update as he has same issue.

So @allain2
What is your situation with regard to BBL application, usage of funds and subsequent events ?

 

[allain2]

Sorry i couldn't reply because busy, most of funds paid in paye and buying assets,
I have somewhere that you can make a judicial review which is quite expensive to remove cifas marker.
Is that true?
I think alot of people will be getting cifas markers because of BBL,

 

[eteb3]

If it's judicially reviewable it will be on the cusp: CIFAS is a private association, and JR is usually only for public bodies.

But assuming it's still good law, the Datafin decision may help you.

Judicial review is fabulously expensive (court fee is ~£10k, I believe) and victory usually just sends the decision back to the original decision-maker to be redecided. There's a good recent summary here.

 

[allain2]

If it's judicially reviewable it will be on the cusp: CIFAS is a private association, and JR is usually only for public bodies.

But assuming it's still good law, the may help you.

Judicial review is fabulously expensive (court fee is ~£10k, I believe) and victory usually just sends the decision back to the original decision-maker to be redecided. There's a good recent summary

What if i pay the BBL, cifas marker can be removed?

 

[eteb3]

You’d have to ask CIFAS but I doubt it: their mission is to reduce fraud, not to improve recovery rates, so guessing your card is marked whether eventually you pay or not.

I would think your MP’s caseworker may be a good bet when you’re sure you’ve exhausted all avenues of appeal.

 

[Moonlight22]

Hi how did you get on did you get it removed ?

 

[Nowornever01]

So why didn't you pay back the loan?

Basically I couldn't afford the min payment, HSBC wouldn't budge.

Was reading up on the forums that it'll get sent to debt collector which should offer better repayment options.

I thought I'll just wait till it goes to a debt collector and set up a payment plan. I knew if I tried to just close the company I would get into trouble down the line. Of course that didn't happen. HSBC defaulted it and reported me to cifas.

Anyways following on from my first message I have absolutely no clue what has happened to the debt.

My accountant doesn't know either. We expected some sort of Letter but it's coming up to 11 months. We tried to close the company a few months ago knowing the strike off would be rejected and it was. We did it to see if it would trigger some sort of response for the bounce back.

So now I'm stuck with a company I can't close which would be fair if I had any sort of clarity on the BBL.

 

[Nowornever01]

Because you used a mail scanning service who appear to have failed to do just that you have made the problem worse.

If you had revived the letters you could have taken action. Because you effectively ignored all correspondence you left yourself open to legal proceedings.

The excuse that the scanning service didn’t send you the documents is not mitigation.

Yes fair my fault shouldn't have buried my head in the sand.

 

[Nowornever01]

Hi how did you get on did you get it removed ?

I've not tried to get it removed. I would advice against it for now unless you've managed to set up some sort of payment plan with a debt collector.

You really only get one solid chance of trying to getting it removed and right now the evidence will stack against you. You really need as much evidence in your favor and paying of the BBL is the best evidence you've got.

 

[Adam48]

I've not tried to get it removed. I would advice against it for now unless you've managed to set up some sort of payment plan with a debt collector.

You really only get one solid chance of trying to getting it removed and right now the evidence will stack against you. You really need as much evidence in your favor and paying of the BBL is the best evidence you've got.

Do you have any updates? I have recently been put in the same predicament.

Surely even if the idea of payment evasion is true, the cifas marker should be made against the Ltd company and not the individual?

 

[Moonlight22]

Hello
9 months on and £9000 in Solicitors fees. i only just got this removed . dont bother with cifas spant lots of time messing around with them and didnt get anywhere,

 

[Adam48]

Hello
9 months on and £9000 in Solicitors fees. i only just got this removed . dont bother with cifas spant lots of time messing around with them and didnt get anywhere,

Please can you expand? Who did you use and how did you go about it? I’m in the same predicament and it’s a nightmare, as you probably know.

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

I’m in the same predicament and it’s a nightmare, as you probably know.

Surely the first port of call is to ask for a review by the Bank that lodged the CIFAS marker- make sure all the facts are correct. Present any additional factors which come to light which were not taken into account originally.

Then if you still feel the decision is wrong refer it the Financial Ombudsmen for them to review the decision. They have the power to overturn it.

Generally CIFAS markers in relation to BBL'S relate to fraudulent application or fraudulent use of funds. Not paying back the BBL is not cause itself for issuing CIFAS markers.

Edit-ask for call recordings with Bank officials if you called them regarding this issue. The FA will ask for these.

 

[allain]

Hello
9 months on and £9000 in Solicitors fees. i only just got this removed . dont bother with cifas spant lots of time messing around with them and didnt get anywhere,

Can you please reply how you got this removed? I am in same situation with HSBC, i have heard they are very strict.
Any reply will be helpful.
Thanks

 

[allain]

Hello
9 months on and £9000 in Solicitors fees. i only just got this removed . dont bother with cifas spant lots of time messing around with them and didnt get anywhere,

Any update would be helpful.

 

[Nowornever01]

Can you please reply how you got this removed? I am in same situation with HSBC, i have heard they are very strict.
Any reply will be helpful.
Thanks

The first step I would say is start paying of the BBL, that's what I'm doing, now I've got a payment plan in place I will work towards getting it removed.

 

[Moonlight22]

Benjamin Pyke 0121 449 9888 ,

FYI i did used 2 others no good for this