Commercial landlord wants to evict under an easy in easy out contract (hence no fault on landlord)

OfficeHope

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Picture this: get into taxi ---> drive goes beyond legal speed limit, drives recklessly, all caught on dashboard cam, which cannot be erased except by the cab firm mgmt ---> l make it home alive, having wet myself.

I would be entitled to a refund as there is hard proof of the law breaking, and to crown it all off, the driver is recorded saying "wot? you're alive aint yer *belches*".
 
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OfficeHope

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We have no of idea the size of your office or the amount of the bills included but for £25 a week I would not be expecting much. Storage in a 20' container could cost more.

It sounds like you need somewhere very soon. It might be worth giving us an indication of where you are located, what you need and maximum budget. You never know someone here might know of somewhere that might suit you.
Ah never mind, l have a good idea what to do next in terms of the physical move. I am constantly checking the airwaves. Still there's a chance l will fail to find a new place, no amount of planning will make premises materialise. And yes, a 20ft container would be more expensive than this current all inc. office.

Thanks for the concern by the way, seriously.
 
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fisicx

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Picture this: get into taxi ---> drive goes beyond legal speed limit, drives recklessly, all caught on dashboard cam, which cannot be erased except by the cab firm mgmt ---> l make it home alive, having wet myself.

I would be entitled to a refund as there is hard proof of the law breaking, and to crown it all off, the driver is recorded saying "wot? you're alive aint yer *belches*".
No, you wouldn’t get a refund as the contract was to deliver you to a defined destination. The driver may be fined or lose their license but you are not entitled to anything.
 
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OfficeHope

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No, you wouldn’t get a refund as the contract was to deliver you to a defined destination. The driver may be fined or lose their license but you are not entitled to anything.

Au contraire:


QUOTE: Small claims are never usually for more than £10,000.
You can use small claims for things like:

  • a faulty product
  • poor service
  • etc.

As there was a maintenance aspect to the property, it did indeed have a service element.

Moreoever it stands to reason that a rental is more than just a room. I already had a room (in a previous house which was lost to hard drug dealing). I needed the working environment too, not just the space. As such, the bad service at the office block cast a pall over me.

There's precedent in the residential sector: a residential tenant would have a right to peaceful enjoyment. No, l'm not saying l have a right to peaceful enjoyment of the office, though it may well be so.
I am saying it's reasonable to expect a good environment, environment being ephemeral, not physical.
As such, this could easily translate as good service in a commercial rental.

Anyway, as l say: there's a maintenance aspect to the commercial rental and thus it does indeed have a service element. Which was very poor.
 
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japancool

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    So the question you want answered is, do you have a case? To get an idea, you will, as everyone has said, need to sit down with a solicitor. You may be able to find one who will give you a free initial consultation where you can give them the facts of the case.

    However, I will say this - from a layman's point of view, it doesn't sound like harassment. It sounds like you are blowing things out of proportion. I understand your mental health issues are causing you to view things in this way, but the question is, will a judge see it in the same way?

    The maintenance men entering your room - most of us would have just shrugged, said "give me a minute to get out of your way" and let him get on with it.

    The cleaning lady bringing her dog in - presumably, she has brought the dog in before you were there, and it hasn't been a problem. She wasn't to know you would construe it as an attack. The dog may have just been being friendly and excited to see someone. Now, the landlord not doing anything about it *might* be a violation of H&S but did it happen again? Also, I would ask - rather than complain to the landlord, why not just have a word with the cleaning lady and explain to her politely that you have anxiety, are afraid of things rushing at you and not to bring it with her? And did it happen again?

    The issues you have with other tenants - the one who closed the window, for example. He's as entitled to close the window as you are to open it. Have you considered that he might have considered you opening the window to be you harassing him? For all you know, he has hayfever and needs to keep the pollen out.

    The mail redirect - again, for all you know, that could have been the postman, rather than another tenant. The scotch egg in the fridge - if it was that bad, why not just throw it out, rather than raise a complaint to the landlord?

    From the landlord's point of view, you seem to have been raising a string of completely minor complaints over nothings. Obviously, from your perspective, things are rather different but if you are to bring it up before a court, they are entitled to ask whether the landlord has been reasonable.

    The only thing you might have a valid complaint about is maintenance, but you would have to prove that a lack of maintenance either breached the terms of your agreement, or was illegal under the whatever the appropriate H&S laws are. And even then, you may well not be entitled to any kind of refund, as you accepted the condition of the building by remaining. It was an easy-in-easy-out lease, you could have left at any time if you were unhappy. Yes, I know you will say you had nowhere to go, but that's your problem, not the landlord's.

    It sounds like a risk on your part to bring a case. I don't know what the law is, but if the judgment were to find against you, would you want to be found liable for their costs? It sounds to me like the landlord might have an equally valid claim against you for harassment of himself and other tenants.

    Again - this is from a layman's perspective from the outside looking in. I am not offering any legal advice, just an opinion. Speak to a solicitor.
     
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    The thread has run its course in practical terms @Newchodge summed it up neatly.

    Before I leave, I'll throw in some thoughts.

    It's not unknown for me to pursue a case on points of principle, with a reasonable level of success.

    There are 3 rules that I follow without exception.

    1. I only ever pursue if I'm confident the chance of success is more than 50%. IMO, this one looks like less than 10%

    2. I don't spend out on lawyers, but I will invest in stuff that verifies, authenticates and quantifies my claim.

    3. I totally detach myself emotionally from the process.

    That last one is where you are likely to struggle. You are too emotionally invested. There is nothing sweet or nice about the legal process - if they chose to defend it (which they almost certainly will), they will throw everything at it - probably including a counter claim and lots of counter accusations.

    Personally I'd drop it and move on, but if you pursue it, be ready!
     
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    OfficeHope

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    However, I will say this - from a layman's point of view, it doesn't sound like harassment. It sounds like you are blowing things out of proportion. I understand your mental health issues are causing you to view things in this way, but the question is, will a judge see it in the same way?

    The maintenance men entering your room - most of us would have just shrugged, said "give me a minute to get out of your way" and let him get on with it.

    The cleaning lady bringing her dog in - presumably, she has brought the dog in before you were there, and it hasn't been a problem. She wasn't to know you would construe it as an attack. The dog may have just been being friendly and excited to see someone. Now, the landlord not doing anything about it *might* be a violation of H&S but did it happen again? Also, I would ask - rather than complain to the landlord, why not just have a word with the cleaning lady and explain to her politely that you have anxiety, are afraid of things rushing at you and not to bring it with her? And did it happen again?

    The issues you have with other tenants - the one who closed the window, for example. He's as entitled to close the window as you are to open it. Have you considered that he might have considered you opening the window to be you harassing him? For all you know, he has hayfever and needs to keep the pollen out.

    The mail redirect - again, for all you know, that could have been the postman, rather than another tenant. The scotch egg in the fridge - if it was that bad, why not just throw it out, rather than raise a complaint to the landlord?

    From the landlord's point of view, you seem to have been raising a string of completely minor complaints over nothings. Obviously, from your perspective, things are rather different but if you are to bring it up before a court, they are entitled to ask whether the landlord has been reasonable.

    The only thing you might have a valid complaint about is maintenance, but you would have to prove that a lack of maintenance either breached the terms of your agreement, or was illegal under the whatever the appropriate H&S laws are. And even then, you may well not be entitled to any kind of refund, as you accepted the condition of the building by remaining. It was an easy-in-easy-out lease, you could have left at any time if you were unhappy. Yes, I know you will say you had nowhere to go, but that's your problem, not the landlord's.

    It sounds like a risk on your part to bring a case. I don't know what the law is, but if the judgment were to find against you, would you want to be found liable for their costs? It sounds to me like the landlord might have an equally valid claim against you for harassment of himself and other tenants.

    Again - this is from a layman's perspective from the outside looking in. I am not offering any legal advice, just an opinion. Speak to a solicitor.

    I am within my rights to feel perturbed at the maintenance man not knocking. Moreover, it was the LL's reaction to my reaction which bothered me. Anyway I don't mean this to be the harrassment element per se.

    The harrassment element primarily was that the rep told me over the phone that they had entered my room without my permission (l mentioned this in the OP). There was no context to it, other than my complaining that another tenant was shutting the hallway window right after l opened it. Saying that they had entered my room without my permission was provocation and l believe it was unflawful and could be construed as harrassment and l complained about it in email right after and that resulted in near total radio silence from the mgmt for ever more after that point.

    I have a right to feel harrassed by it and it's certainly reasonable too. I didn't mention before, but the LL's rep would give me positively evil stares too, ever a deadly stare because l would never stand and chat, l would always be trying to walk away and l had already explained that they should expect this. Of course, l cannot quantify or prove a deadly stare, but it was there, always. I couldn't hope to bring that into my court claim though, obviously!

    I never said the other tenant closing the window was harrassing me. However, each room had free electricity, the window was in the hallway, and he is always pushing the window open these days, in summer (and leaving it open overnight - one of my various complaints about maintenance - this invalidates building insurance, at least, MGMT's flippant attitude to my mentioning it). He does not have hay fever, the open window has very little impact on the temperature inside each room, l was opening the window to keep fresh air flowing, because the gents toilets - believe it or not - had windows that were painted shut, and had been that way for presumably years. That's right, if you took a poo, the smell would fill the building (but the female toilets had windows that would open), the only relief was to open the fire doors in the adjacent space, several walls away. So there was pretty good reason for that window to be open and l explained as much. There was also a health and safety aspect there, re: germs needing to be dissipated.

    l believe it may have been that same tenant that was periodically leaving stacks of far right newsletters in the foyer, because they appeared around the time he would enter the building. The first time he saw me, he gave me a very evil stare in fact, so there was a bit more backstory, which l did not go into, nor shall l in court, as it is unfalsifiable.

    The postman? No, it couldn't have been the postman. The postman could not access the lobby nor would have have any reason to put a mail redirect sticker on a piece of mail that was already in my pigeonhole. I didn't accidentally redirect another tenant's mail either, l ran the names of the ex-tenants and never-tenants whose mail l was about to redirect, by the LL's rep and they said l would be fine to redirect just those. In response, someone put my own redirect sticker on my own letter and left it in my own pigeonhole, and it only happened that once.

    l'm intractable on the position that taken as a whole, there was some ill will out there, and the mgmt - this is the main thing - the mgmt were very nasty about it, as they were about any matter brought before them. Because they were just property investors, l feel. I don't believe they really wanted to do the LL thing, they just wanted babysitters for the building. Understandable, and the contract reflects this. But it spilled over into Negligence, Bad Service, and dareisay it, Harrassment. By the way, anecdote: I once left a tube of bogroll in the toilet, and returned to find a note penned on it saying "Throw the toilet roll in the bin you lazy F@!# C@!#" fully spelled out. This l found to be genuinely heartwarming. So, l think l do feel context and l'm not just a pedantic ass about things.

    As per the OP, some of these claims are more easily bolstered than others.


    You say: The only thing you might have a valid complaint about is maintenance, but you would have to prove that a lack of maintenance either breached the terms of your agreement, or was illegal under the whatever the appropriate H&S laws are. And even then, you may well not be entitled to any kind of refund, as you accepted the condition of the building by remaining. It was an easy-in-easy-out lease, you could have left at any time if you were unhappy. Yes, I know you will say you had nowhere to go, but that's your problem, not the landlord's.

    I could not easily move and that's 99% of my present horror. One does not just move office! :p

    I don't believe there are usually if ever expense claims in the small claims track.

    I appreciate your kind hearted effort in cross examining me, that's after all what l asked for. I wish you well in life.



    I guess this thread has run its course now ... :( next step, free law workshop. Not everybody needs a lawyer, especially in small claims - thank God!
     
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    japancool

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    The harrassment element primarily was that the rep told me over the phone that they had entered my room without my permission (l mentioned this in the OP). There was no context to it, other than my complaining that another tenant was shutting the hallway window right after l opened it. It was provocation and l believe it was unflawful and could be construed as harrassment and l complained about it in email right after and that resulted in near total radio silence from the mgmt for ever more after that point.

    It is not necessarily against the law. You were in a shared office building, and what you had is normally a license, not a lease. A license has considerably fewer protections than a lease - the building still belongs to the landlord, and you are given permission to use part of it, rather than given exclusive use.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    It is not necessarily against the law. You were in a shared office building, and what you had is normally a license, not a lease. A license has considerably fewer protections than a lease - the building still belongs to the landlord, and you are given permission to use part of it, rather than given exclusive use.
    Brilliant, thank you. I'll investigate this plus a few other points raised in the thread. P.S. I added an anecdote to my previous message to you, in bold :p
     
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    paulears

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    You are paying 25 quid a week in rent, you make about double that. You are very worried about the stock depreciating, but you are either selling very little or selling everything for minimal margin. It's an office, so how much stock are we talking about. With your figures it cannot be very much? Are we talking about a single garage size quantity, double garage, or something seriously bigger? Can you not run the business from home? Are we talking about lots of 'things' - I'm assuming no staff with your profits so meagre?

    I'm totally stuck on what you are doing? Your lease always had a quick exit on the cards, so has something else happened? The landlord let themselves in? What for, and why? You've made it sound as if they were doing something dodgy, so what is happening? More is going on here. How much stock in terms of space? Surely if it's modest you could spread it around a bit and carry on?
     
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    ecommerce84

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    I haven’t read all the replies sorry due to time constraints but do you have someone who can step in and help? Parents, siblings or a good friend.

    Trying to deal with the exit from the building and relocation on your own sounds like it’s hard enough without the possible harassment etc.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    You are paying 25 quid a week in rent, you make about double that. You are very worried about the stock depreciating, but you are either selling very little or selling everything for minimal margin. It's an office, so how much stock are we talking about. With your figures it cannot be very much? Are we talking about a single garage size quantity, double garage, or something seriously bigger? Can you not run the business from home? Are we talking about lots of 'things' - I'm assuming no staff with your profits so meagre?

    I'm totally stuck on what you are doing? Your lease always had a quick exit on the cards, so has something else happened? The landlord let themselves in? What for, and why? You've made it sound as if they were doing something dodgy, so what is happening? More is going on here. How much stock in terms of space? Surely if it's modest you could spread it around a bit and carry on?

    Don't worry too much about the specific stock. I need some things private, e.g. the exact rent amount, my real location, my stock in trade. By the way l'm not worried about the stock depreciating, rather, worried about paying container storage rates on it while l'm unable to run my business. Could potentially run it from a container but l suffer from Reynaud's phenomenon and the agony when touching bare metal in winter is unreal. I'd rather stay in an office. Can't work from home, present house taken over by heroin trader + addicts, previous house taken over by coke dealer + clients / addicts. Besides, it's hard to focus when you're at home. Some companies are rolling back their WFH option due to low productivity.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    On any dispute with a commercial landlord, it nearly always ends up with what it says in the lease. Read the lease. What does it say that the landlord has to provide? What does it say that you have to provide? Does it actually say it’s a lease or is it a license to use occupy
    I thought l had the contract elsewhere but actually l have a digital copy with me. Throughout the contract, it's referred to as a "LEASE" and l'm referred to as a "TENANT".

    This is good news right? How do l confirm it's not merely a license?
     
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    OfficeHope

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    I haven’t read all the replies sorry due to time constraints but do you have someone who can step in and help? Parents, siblings or a good friend.

    Trying to deal with the exit from the building and relocation on your own sounds like it’s hard enough without the possible harassment etc.
    Nobody that can help and l can't even drive - boo!
     
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    kulture

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    I thought l had the contract elsewhere but actually l have a digital copy with me. Throughout the contract, it's referred to as a "LEASE" and l'm referred to as a "TENANT".

    This is good news right? How do l confirm it's not merely a license?


    Details matter. Not titles. What are the landlord obligations, what are the tenants obligations? What does it say about shared facilities? What does it say about access by the landlord and their agents? All this and more matter. But this is also a distraction. Find alternatives, move, then think about the legal position.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    UPDATE TO ALL:

    Throughout the contract, it's referred to as a "LEASE" and l'm referred to as a "TENANT".

    The Access clause stipulates that 7 days' notice need be given to me by the LL in order to access my room, except in emergencies.

    There is also a quiet enjoyment clause, l'm allowed peaceful enjoyment without interference from the landlord or anyone that derives title from the landlord (e.g. that maintenance guy).

    One clause was appended, all in bold below (verbatim):

    Exclusion of the 1954 Act Sections 24-28

    (a) On [ ] the Landlord served notice on the Tenant pursuant to the provision of the 1954 Act Section 38A(3) and [ ] the Tenant made a statutory declaration pursuant to Schedule 2 of the Regulatory Reform (Business Tenancies) (England and Wales) Order 2003

    (b) Pursuant to the provisions of the 1954 Act Section 38A(1) the parties agree that the provisions of the 1954 Act Sections 24-28 inclusive are to be excluded in relation to the tenancy created by this Lease



    As the letting agent informed me prior to the tenancy, this was an easy-out clause meaning the LL could get rid of the tenant at whim.
     
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    japancool

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    I thought l had the contract elsewhere but actually l have a digital copy with me. Throughout the contract, it's referred to as a "LEASE" and l'm referred to as a "TENANT".

    This is good news right? How do l confirm it's not merely a license?

    Well, ultimately, the interpretation is down to the law. It's not down to the wording on the contract. Things like, who is responsible for maintenance and repairs, rights to occupy, that sort of thing.

    Or rather, what @kulture said.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    Just too correct you, people move offices all the time. I’m sure you might find it awkward, but these were the terms you agreed too. Anyway, best of luck whatever you decide to do.
    *to
    I don't want to quibble over semantics when it's so meta. Surely you understand that it's a heavy matter that requires great planning and grace for a smooth switchover.

    I have always been aware of the terms, may l redirect you to the OP.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    Well, ultimately, the interpretation is down to the law. It's not down to the wording on the contract. Things like, who is responsible for maintenance and repairs, rights to occupy, that sort of thing.

    Or rather, what @kulture said.
    I didn't find that remark of his to have any legal advice or opinions and moreover he completely blanked my question as to how to identify the contract as a license. Please see my clarification, replicated here:


    Throughout the contract, it's referred to as a "LEASE" and l'm referred to as a "TENANT".

    The Access clause stipulates that 7 days' notice need be given to me by the LL in order to access my room, except in emergencies.

    There is also a quiet enjoyment clause, l'm allowed peaceful enjoyment without interference from the landlord or anyone that derives title from the landlord (e.g. that maintenance guy).

    One clause was appended, all in bold below (verbatim):

    Exclusion of the 1954 Act Sections 24-28

    (a) On [ ] the Landlord served notice on the Tenant pursuant to the provision of the 1954 Act Section 38A(3) and [ ] the Tenant made a statutory declaration pursuant to Schedule 2 of the Regulatory Reform (Business Tenancies) (England and Wales) Order 2003

    (b) Pursuant to the provisions of the 1954 Act Section 38A(1) the parties agree that the provisions of the 1954 Act Sections 24-28 inclusive are to be excluded in relation to the tenancy created by this Lease


    As the letting agent informed me prior to the tenancy, this above addendum was an easy-out clause meaning the LL could get rid of the tenant at whim.

    I would hope the letting agent would have informed me if this were not a real tenancy but a mere license.


    I think the upshot of all this is: As a regular tenant and not merely a licensee, the LL and rep did indeed harrass me, and harrassment is criminal, though the harrassment element would be hard to prove. Whether a tenant or licensee, the LL and rep were definitely negligent. I definitely did get bad service.

    I would have hoped that if l could successfully argue for harrassment (a criminal act), l could call the forfeiture off and leave at my own right moment. Time is, as everyone reminds me, of the essence. More would be great.

    It's my view that the LL is damned one way or another, even if l too am damned. I think l deserve at least a refund for bad service. Bad service is an acceptable reason for the Small Claims track.
     
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    fisicx

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    @OfficeHope - whilst you may have found something in the contact that might give an opening nothing changes the fact that you have been given notice.

    Your priority right now should be to find somewhere else for your business. Until you do you have nothing and may even lose your stock, furniture and other possessions.

    Once you are able to continue working you can then investigate potential legal action.
     
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    japancool

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    I didn't find that remark of his to have any legal advice or opinions and moreover he completely blanked my question as to how to identify the contract as a license.

    That's really a question for a court to rule on, if there is a dispute. The question will probably come up in relation to your case, and the judge would need to interpret it.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    That's really a question for a court to rule on, if there is a dispute. The question will probably come up in relation to your case, and the judge would need to interpret it.
    It's not predetermined in the contract?

    I'm sure it is, and the contract only ever calls me a tenant and the thing l have purchased is only ever called a lease.

    Why do you think this is for the judge to declare whether l'm a tenant or a licensee?
     
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    OfficeHope

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    @OfficeHope - whilst you may have found something in the contact that might give an opening nothing changes the fact that you have been given notice.

    Your priority right now should be to find somewhere else for your business. Until you do you have nothing and may even lose your stock, furniture and other possessions.

    Once you are able to continue working you can then investigate potential legal action.
    That's my private business.
    I'm only here to discuss the legal angle. Thanks for your concern though :)
    I'm fixing to get my boxing gloves and motorcycle helmet on and do this thing. After running it past a free law workshop. But thanks for the various angles and objections given on this thread.
     
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    japancool

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    It's not predetermined in the contract?

    No - although a contract can call itself a lease, it might be deemed to be a license if it has the characteristics of a license. There's a legal precedent for that, but I can't find it right now.

    The issue is that you are asserting certain rights that could normally pertain to a lease, but they might argue that it is a license. That's why it *might* be up to the judge to decide - if it comes up. It might not.
     
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    fisicx

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    I'm only here to discuss the legal angle. Thanks for your concern though :)
    The legal angle is very clear as has been stated numerous times.

    You have to leave the property on the date the landlord has requested.

    You then have the option to take legal action for harassment. You will not get your rent back but you might get some compensation. When this happens is unknown. It depends on when the civil court allocates a date, how the case progresses and if the landlord appeals. All this could take many years.
     
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    studioJK

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    Hi @OfficeHope

    I am very sorry that you are going through all these.

    However, as a practising solicitor, I concur with some of the comments above. A forum is not an appropriate medium to try to get advice for your circumstances. You should get specialist legal advice. For example, you may have security of tenure (thereby allowing you to continue to occupy the premises), but all these must be carefully assessed by a legal adviser based upon the factual circumstances and the documentation.

    I sympathise with your circumstances, but commercial leases / licences are complicated (due to various legislation / common law issues). In my view, the quicker you get proper legal advice (to understand your position and your options), the less anxious you would be (and would also get less wound up by a forum, which ultimately you are unable to rely on anything said).

    Good lawyers are very used to things going very wrong very quickly, and would be able to prioritise as appropriate. If your timeline is reasonable in the light of the overall circumstances, you should shop around to see what lawyers could meet your timeline and whether you are comfortable with the costs / proposed actions.

    Instead of going through this alone (with a specialist lawyer only), you could also engage a project manager (which is what I do) to manage this matter for you, so that you would have an extra someone, who offers an independent perspective of the lawyer, to walk this journey with you.

    I hope you could get this resolved soon.

    For the avoidance of doubt, the above (a) does not constitute legal advice (and no lawyer-client relationship is formed in any way) and (b) is set out for your reference only.
     
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    kulture

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    My advice, not to the OP who seems to have made up their own mind and is oblivious to everything said here that contradicts, but to anyone else who may be in this position, commercial leases are complex and come with little or no legislative protection. People who sign them are assumed to know what they are doing and assumed to take proper commercial legal advice.

    Commercial leases tend to include phrases that have specific legal meaning
    and not necessarily what you may assume. Quiet enjoyment for example has nothing to do with noise but simply means that the tenant has the right to use the property without unreasonable or unnecessary interference from the landlord.

    Unless you know all these terms you will not fully understand what the lease is saying. This is why you should always use a good commercial solicitor.

    There are always two sides to any situation. No matter how justified a complaint may be, there is always the other point of view. A commercial landlord who is letting out an office for £25 a week will want a tenant who just pays and is otherwise silent. One who is constantly complaining is not worth the trouble. Further one who keeps stock in the office and thus may be invalidating the insurance of the offices is likewise a tenant who is not worth keeping. I am not suggesting that this is relevant in this case BUT there may well be factors not mentioned that the landlord has taken into account that are relevant and may completely destroy any case.

    This again is why a good solicitor is needed. A good solicitor will ask questions, establish a fuller picture, and be in a much better position to advise than on a forum.

    In pure business terms, a good tenant is one who pays and never does anything that causes the landlord any issue. The OP is not a good tenant. This has nothing to do with fairness, nor reasonableness, nor right and wrong.
     
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    MOIC

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  • Nov 16, 2011
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    myofficeinchina.com
    If you suffer from anxiety, taking a landlord to court or challenging their right to evict you, will bring you more anxiety, much much more. Accept the situation and move on, but you won't.

    If you’re paying £25 a week, the office must be small, so finding somewhere to put your goods in 6 weeks should not be too challenging for you.

    Personally, this sound like a dissertation as you're looking to challenge every possible angle to find cause in support of your argument.

    If it's not, you should perhaps see a doctor to treat your current anxiety.

    Btw, you should consider going in to storytelling.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    Jul 24, 2022
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    The legal angle is very clear as has been stated numerous times.

    You have to leave the property on the date the landlord has requested.

    You then have the option to take legal action for harassment. You will not get your rent back but you might get some compensation. When this happens is unknown. It depends on when the civil court allocates a date, how the case progresses and if the landlord appeals. All this could take many years.

    You stated over and again that nobody can get a refund for bad service via the small claims track, implying that it's not even a category of award. Then l posted a CAB link showing otherwise. Thank you for the advice but if you must get wound up over it it's better to sit it out, as it doesn't directly affect you.

    I have noted your latest advice. As for "many years" l suspect that's not how the Small Claims track would work, but the LL is welcome to try. Quote Google: " The small claims track is supposed to be a proportionate method of dealing with straightforward cases of limited value." There comes a point when the judge will just shut it down.

    May l please ask that if you are not forwarding new arguments (and l appreciate the concern about my future, which worries me too, e.g. l am sleeping 2 hours a day right now and feeling precisely like l've slept 2 hours a day), then please, let's leave it at that, as it would occlude access to any actual info on this thread.
     
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    OfficeHope

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    Jul 24, 2022
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    Hi @OfficeHope

    I am very sorry that you are going through all these.

    However, as a practising solicitor, I concur with some of the comments above. A forum is not an appropriate medium to try to get advice for your circumstances. You should get specialist legal advice. For example, you may have security of tenure (thereby allowing you to continue to occupy the premises), but all these must be carefully assessed by a legal adviser based upon the factual circumstances and the documentation.

    I sympathise with your circumstances, but commercial leases / licences are complicated (due to various legislation / common law issues). In my view, the quicker you get proper legal advice (to understand your position and your options), the less anxious you would be (and would also get less wound up by a forum, which ultimately you are unable to rely on anything said).

    Good lawyers are very used to things going very wrong very quickly, and would be able to prioritise as appropriate. If your timeline is reasonable in the light of the overall circumstances, you should shop around to see what lawyers could meet your timeline and whether you are comfortable with the costs / proposed actions.

    Instead of going through this alone (with a specialist lawyer only), you could also engage a project manager (which is what I do) to manage this matter for you, so that you would have an extra someone, who offers an independent perspective of the lawyer, to walk this journey with you.

    I hope you could get this resolved soon.

    For the avoidance of doubt, the above (a) does not constitute legal advice (and no lawyer-client relationship is formed in any way) and (b) is set out for your reference only.

    Thanks, l've copied this down.

    Some good info there. I think the greatest repetition on here has been the issue of what l should do instead, and whom l should consult instead.

    I am only here for the first test of the legal arguments and to see if there were any immediate paperwork l could cheaply and effectively launch (given that it's an emergency), that is all. As l keep saying, l'm going to proceed to one of the free law clinics after this anyway :)


    Thing is the way you explained the need for a lawyer has enlightened me somewhat. I may spend money on one but l genuinely don't have £600 to spare and my guess is that'd be the minimum spend.

    By the way: What is a project manager?

    What approx. fees are we talking?

    And what do you think of a free law clinic? I think it'd be too slow to launch anything short term, so l'm definitely going to have to move somehow.
     
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    OfficeHope

    Free Member
    Jul 24, 2022
    55
    0
    My advice, not to the OP who seems to have made up their own mind and is oblivious to everything said here that contradicts, but to anyone else who may be in this position, commercial leases are complex and come with little or no legislative protection. People who sign them are assumed to know what they are doing and assumed to take proper commercial legal advice.

    Commercial leases tend to include phrases that have specific legal meaning
    and not necessarily what you may assume. Quiet enjoyment for example has nothing to do with noise but simply means that the tenant has the right to use the property without unreasonable or unnecessary interference from the landlord.

    Unless you know all these terms you will not fully understand what the lease is saying. This is why you should always use a good commercial solicitor.

    There are always two sides to any situation. No matter how justified a complaint may be, there is always the other point of view. A commercial landlord who is letting out an office for £25 a week will want a tenant who just pays and is otherwise silent. One who is constantly complaining is not worth the trouble. Further one who keeps stock in the office and thus may be invalidating the insurance of the offices is likewise a tenant who is not worth keeping. I am not suggesting that this is relevant in this case BUT there may well be factors not mentioned that the landlord has taken into account that are relevant and may completely destroy any case.

    This again is why a good solicitor is needed. A good solicitor will ask questions, establish a fuller picture, and be in a much better position to advise than on a forum.

    In pure business terms, a good tenant is one who pays and never does anything that causes the landlord any issue. The OP is not a good tenant. This has nothing to do with fairness, nor reasonableness, nor right and wrong.
    Why the heck do you need to get so damn personal, what is wrong with you?
     
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    OfficeHope

    Free Member
    Jul 24, 2022
    55
    0
    If you suffer from anxiety, taking a landlord to court or challenging their right to evict you, will bring you more anxiety, much much more. Accept the situation and move on, but you won't.

    If you’re paying £25 a week, the office must be small, so finding somewhere to put your goods in 6 weeks should not be too challenging for you.

    Personally, this sound like a dissertation as you're looking to challenge every possible angle to find cause in support of your argument.

    If it's not, you should perhaps see a doctor to treat your current anxiety.

    Btw, you should consider going in to storytelling.
    Sorry what has this to do with my OP questions?
     
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    OfficeHope

    Free Member
    Jul 24, 2022
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    0
    By the way, l recall reading an online article about giving advice once: people often stray into bad advice when they give the advice that'd suit themselves ... not if they were in the other person's shoes, the other person stays in their own shoes, but they just give the advice that'd suit their own selves as spectators. I respect that people want me to just move on, just get out, etc. I'm working on that. It's off topic though and it's easy for others to say that. I need to recover from the financial fallout. I have a dozen other considerations too. Leave the black box thinking to me. I'm just after the legal input, same as you would be in my shoes.

    The facts and figures l gave were just to illustrate a minute point that forfeiting everything here, might be cheaper than shutting down and storing in a container or self storage. Bear in mind the removal cost too, which is money l might not even have spare. Also it doesn't matter whereabouts l live (in case someone might have a shipping container to spare ... really?) nor what stock l trade in.

    All that's needed is to dish out considered legal advice (i.e. my OP gets read, your response gets double checked before given, even if it still turns out to be wrong at least it was thought out and not a load of personal garbage). I know, that's a bit vanilla and it's easier to blame me for something. But that's not my fault and it's off topic. :)

    At this stage l think it's better if people with less of a heavy presence just continue contributing (moderators are just way too personal)
     
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    MOIC

    Free Member
  • Nov 16, 2011
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    myofficeinchina.com
    Sorry what has this to do with my OP questions?
    Read all your posts!

    You don't need a solicitor, you need a doctor to help you with your anxieties and phobias, and I'm saying that kindly.

    I feel sorry for the landlord, I'm saying that kindly too.

    The time you've spent on this thread, you could have moved all your goods out, twice!
     
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    pentel

    Free Member
  • Mar 12, 2011
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    Leicester UK

    From your latter posts it seems the moving out, relocation and storage are things that you don't wish to discuss as you have this all covered. Hopefully this all works out for you.

    Going on to claims against the landlord it sounds like you have a full time line and appropriate evidence to make a claim. The main question is does it make sense to do so? Lets assume that you make a claim, are successful and you get all your rent back. This will come to approximately £1300 which is not a small amount of money considering your situation.

    Going through this process can be really stressful. Do you want the stress? Are you better off moving on and using the energy you will expend following up on an uncertain claim with a max return of £1300 or are you better off using those energies to double or more your weekly profit, which will be ongoing and could be worth 10's of thousands in the long term?

    Of course you could say I want to do both and that is your choice. If you want to do both then get moved and then go onto to the legal aspect.

    From the numerous comments in this thread from people who have been in similar situations it may be best to take a break at that point and think about what you really want. Stuffing it to the landlord wont affect him one jot. Winning will feel great, but what will you have actually achieved? Sometimes it is best to walk away.
     
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