Cheque Returned Unpaid

[silklink]

Hi

A customer in a gift shop pays by cheque. They present a cheque guarantee card, which all seems fine and is in date. But guess what - it gets returned unpaid by the bank. The reason (NatWest) is in accordance with cheque card criteria. So it looks like there is a bank account but there was an issue with the card.

I was informed that I could try to present it again, so I did, and like a rubber ball, it came bouncing back. I guess the customer is being charged each time I try to draw the cheque.

My question though, what do I do now? I have a mobile telephone number that, of course, is never switched on. I have left a few messages asking the customer to come into the shop with either the goods bought or payment for them.

How do I find the customer's address so I can take legal action?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Simon-M]

If you have a valid cheque guarantee card how can the bank dispute this?

 

[PI Guy]

how much info on the customer do you have?

 

[silklink]

Wow. 2 replies already - I am impressed

Simon - I am baffled by this too. One thought I had is that you obtain a credit card which can be used as a cheque guarantee card. You then switch credit card companies and close the original account. This leaves you with an in-date card, which to a shop keeper (my wife in this case) looks valid.

My daught, also a store manager, suggested that you can 'dip' a guarantee card in a PDA machine. I need to find out more about this.

PI Guy - I have her name on the cheque, a mobile number that does ring and I can leave a message. Aside from bank and dodgy card details, that's about it. I have tried the phone book and even google. I also asked other workers in the shop if they know her or her family name.

Thanks for the replies

 

[PI Guy]

have u tried the electoral roll? you can send a letter to her through her bank. you can use a tracer

 

[tony84]

Im thinking you could involve the police as it must be a type of fraud?
Facebook? - Sounds daft but the amount of people i have found on facebook is amazing - Which then gives you more information - eg place of work, where they go drinking, another phone number.

It all depends how far your prepared to go. I was owed £600 by someone and managed to find their home address, the fact they own a business in spain, where they used to work an their position and god knows what else.

No disrespect meant here but the fact its a coffee shop i imagine its a £10 maximum bill? Now i know its not the amount its the principle (I really do understand that point of view). But how far are you prepared to go? Could it not just be taken as a lesson learnt and keep an eye out for them or if you have CCTV and presuming they will be local put up their photograph in your shop window saying this person is a tight ass so if they pass they feel cheap and humiliated?

 

[davidakerr]

I realise hindsight is a wonderful thing but you should seriously consider as to whether or not taking cheques as payment for goods is worth the hassle. Maybe you should offer your customers payment by card or cash. Cheques are on the way out, although the banks will not openly admit it.

 

[Esk247]

you still accept cheques??? crikey! i struggle to find many gift shops that you can pay by cheque..most only accept cash or visa these days.

if its a small amount (under £10) then theres not much you can do i don't think..if its a larger amount then contact the police..you only have a mobile number not a home number, that phone could of been dumped in a bin ages ago.

 

[silklink]

The responses are great. Thanks guys

It's interesting about the perception that can be created, which I clearly need to understand more about. No coffee sold here. It's a new gift shop which is a new venture for my wife. The cheque is to the value of £87 which is a lot of money for a single sale in her shop, but small fry I guess for others.

Several comments on the theme of 'why take cheques?' and, here's the irony, this was the first (and last) cheque she had accepted in 4 months of trading. Says a great deal I think.

Anyway, the cheque was accepted on this occasion, so we should at least attempt to recover the loss. I love the idea of Facebook. I will also contact the local police, although other people have mentioned that the police aren't interested. Even though, as someone on this site said, it is fraud - knowingly paying for goods when there are insufficient funds in the bank.

The cheque has been presented twice now, and NatWest charge £35 for each cheque returned unpaid. It's sort of nice knowing that, but of no help to my wife.

Thanks again

Paul

 

[Chippie]

Bloody banks! So what exactly is a cheque guarantee card if it doesn't guarantee a cheque?? :|

On the other hand, when your wife checked the card did she notice if it was a £50 or £100 card. If it was the former then that could be the problem.

Put it down to experience, we only take cheques from regular customers who's details are on our data base or from friends. I have to say that before we introduced this policy the bounced cheques we did get came from only one sector of society, but as this is a politically correct forum, I won't expand this point any further!!

 

[stugster]

Bloody banks! So what exactly is a cheque guarantee card if it doesn't guarantee a cheque?? :|

This is what baffles me the most.

If the Guarantee card is above the amount (£100 guarantee for the £80odd transaction), and the card matches up with the cheque, I can't see why on earth the bank is not honouring it - after all, the guarantee is with the Bank, not the Customer.

The whole point of the guarantee card system is so that a retailer knows that they're not going to have the kind of hassle you're having with this.

The only other reason I can think of (other than the guarantee card being less than the value of the cheque) is that the two don't match up.

Have the bank given you specific reasons for why the cheque is being bounced?

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

The bank will have a tonne of excuses. Some I can think of will be, the card has been reported lost/stolen, we've cancelled the card, the customer is abusing the facility so we've withdrawn it.

And that's on top of other things such as the wrong number being written down on the back of the cheque and other small technical get outs.

IMO cheque guarantee cards are next to worthless.

 

[erikam]

just to let you know guys.....banks can bounce a cheque with a guarantee card if it is stolen....lesson.....always ask for extra photo ID when taking a cheque... There are a lot of thieves out there....You can ask the Bank why they have bounced it too.....if it was stolen there is no charge to the drawer.

 

[tony84]

If it is £80 then thats more than something i would take on the chin.

Facebook, Google search, myspace.
Yahoo people search, there is a site where you can search for people and their address i have frgot what it is though i used it when trying to find someone.

 

[graemepirie]

Just re-present the cheque every week until the bank or customer gets in touch with you ;-)

 

[silklink]

I think it sounds very iffy, and that's me being very PC...

The girl came into the shop earlier in the week and made a point of being interested in certain items. She told my wife that she couldn't afford it until the end of the month, later that same week, and could she pay by cheque.

When she came back, the shop was quite busy, so when it came to paying, she acted ever so helpful by writing the card details on the back of the cheque. Of course my wife checked the details and it was indeed a £100 guarantee card, all in date and the number was as per the card.

I'm busy web searching now:|

 

[tony84]

192.com will give you a list of people that live at the same addres without actually giving you the address - give you more names to search for and spreads the net a little bit.

Another way is to contact the bank, either theirs or yours. Ask what you shoudl do in your situation

 

[Chippie]

Just re-present the cheque every week until the bank or customer gets in touch with you ;-)

Most banks will only allow you to re-present a cheque once.

 

[silklink]

Cheers Tony, I am searching a few more names from 192.com - I might know one of them

Chippie, It was implied by my wife's bank that I could present the queque a number of times. However, it gets a bit impractical because it is really difficult to read it now that it has been stamped twice on the front and some sort of franking thing on the back.
Thanks guys

 

[tony84]

Im not 100% sure about this but could you not get a private detective to find them and forward all costs onto the person who gave you the cheque?
That would be amazing if you could and do.

Or do what i did, when you find them knock on their front door and say you owe me £600, you should see their face. I suppose mine was a little bit bigger as i spent 3-4 months looking for them and it was a little more money but you get so much satisfaction from it.

I really want you to find this person as £10 is annoying but £90 gives you a reason to find them as thats just taking the peesh! Especially to a small company.
Some of the bigger people on here must have access to voters roll etc who can put you in the right direction so you dont have to pay for access to it.

 

[Blush]

I made a conscious decision when we opened the shop not to accept cheques, at all.I do acceptthemonlinehoever no goods are ever sent out before cheque clears and to be honest only two people have ever used this option.Good luck, as a small business I know how importnat every penny is when you are starting out

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I think it sounds very iffy, and that's me being very PC...

The girl came into the shop earlier in the week and made a point of being interested in certain items. She told my wife that she couldn't afford it until the end of the month, later that same week, and could she pay by cheque.

When she came back, the shop was quite busy, so when it came to paying, she acted ever so helpful by writing the card details on the back of the cheque. Of course my wife checked the details and it was indeed a £100 guarantee card, all in date and the number was as per the card.

I'm busy web searching now:|

And that I'm afraid is your problem. The details written on the back of the cheque must be written by the person accepting the cheque. If the bank sees that the handwriting/number formation is the same as the customers writing then it is null, void, and worthless in terms of cheque guarantee.

 

[stugster]

I would consider taking it on the chin in this instance. Don't offer to accept any cheques any more. Spend the time you could be wasting trying to find her marketing the business and pushing new sales instead.

Recovering £90 is not as important as attracting new customers!

 

[Alison Jones]

Have you got neighbouring shops to yours? Might be worth you asking in there if they have dealt with the same person if she is a local and might have more contact details especially if she bounced a cheque on them they may have found out enough information.

You can find out so much about a person on the internet if you google the right think, quite frightening really, there are even websites that have pin point on a map of where someone lives.

Alison

 

[silklink]

Update...

My wife found the time to phone the customer's bank and was more than surprised at the help they offered. Without actually telling her any personal information of their customer, they told my wife the the mobile telephone number was not the number they had. They also, in a very roundabout way of doing so, made it clear that their customer seems to have made this a habit, which is the most likely explaination of why the checque is not being honoured. Correct numbers, valid card, just over-used. They suggested that we go to the police.

So, my wife no longer takes cheques. The guarantee card is not a guarantee card, as it can be stopped at any point that the banks so wish to.:|.

Maybe Trading Standards shoudl investigate. When is a guarantee card not a guarantee card?:|:|

However, you can't rule out cheques, because for example, my wife pays many of her suppliers by cheque. Many of them are struggling artisists, so £15 here, £20 there, etc. At least her suppliers know where she lives, so to speak. What a crazy, mixed up world. :|:|:|

Stugster, I am with you on this, but there are principles at stake here.

 

[silklink]

And that I'm afraid is your problem. The details written on the back of the cheque must be written by the person accepting the cheque. If the bank sees that the handwriting/number formation is the same as the customers writing then it is null, void, and worthless in terms of cheque guarantee.

I have heard this before and I wonder if it is fact or urban myth. Let's face it, it doesn't realy matter who writes the details - it is the checking and its correctness that matters

I have searched all over the small print in my wife's banking pack, which is only 4 months old. No mention. In fact, it doesn't provide any details on what you are supposed to do when trading with cheques. There is lots of info for merchant card trading.

I have requested the specific guide-lines from her bank. Armed with that, assuming she did everything correctly, I will be writing to the bank, FSA, Trading Standards, etc. as well as the police (but I don't hold much hope there - they seem more interested in my speed limit )

 

[Williams lester]

I have heard this before and I wonder if it is fact or urban myth. Let's face it, it doesn't realy matter who writes the details - it is the checking and its correctness that matters

It is definately not an urban myth, details of the cheque guarantee card scheme can be found here http://www.apacs.org.uk/payment_options/documents/cheque_card.pdf

as you can see from point iv) the number needs to be written by the payee.

 

[silklink]

Well that is interesting, and thanks for the link. I think that is what my wife's bank is likely to be sending me.

It seems crazy to use words like that. Here is an example - how many of us pay organisations by cheque, like our kids' schools and cubs, etc. We think we are doing the right thing by writing the card number on the back.

The guarantee system therefore does not support 'customer not present' methods of payment.

Also, as it is the 'payee' that must write the number, it is not possible uphold the guarantee rules if you employ someone, as they are not the 'payee'. The 'payee' is the person the money is being paid to. This would apply also to limited companies, who employ people but who are not the 'payee'.

Sounds like a good case for Trading Standards or Watchdog or something.

 

[Chippie]

Sounds like a good case for Trading Standards or Watchdog or something.

TBH mate I know that it's frustrating and a matter of principle and all that, and I've been there too, but I think you should just put it down to experience and move on. The more time you put into this episode and exacting retribution or recompense, the more you will come to resent it. Think about what your time's worth. How many hours are you willing to put in to recover 80 odd quid? At this rate you'll be valuing your time at about a pound per hour and I'm sure you're worth more than that! Just a thought.

 

[silklink]

Chippie, you are right. I do need to save my sanity.

On the other hand though, this is the reason that fraud manifests and lingers - no-one does anything about it. The girl who did the deed came into our shop and asked if we took cheques and said she would be back neerer the end of the month. She probably went into a number of shops and did exactly the same thing. If us shops don't talk to each other and each owner sits back and thinks 'oh well, let's forget it and move on' then that girl, along with many criminals just like her, have had a wonderfully free Christmas.

My wife pays £200 per month in business rates for her little shop unit. I think business owners deserve better police support. I also think that cheque guarantee cards should be proper guarantee cards.

 

[AlanR]

Silklink,

If the bank 'knows' her and therefore will probably know her whereabouts, can't you recover the goods in question?

Alan

 

[Simon-M]

Phone the financial services banking ombudsman http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/ 0845 080 1800.

The call will take no more than 10 minutes and they will write to the bank. The bank may do the decent thing then and honour the cheque.

If you get no joy here then just forget it. I was being chased for a false debt. One call to these people and it was all sorted.

Simon

 

[tony84]

Personally i would go to the bank and say your debating going to the financial ombudsman first.

Im not sure how much it is now, but im sure when they get involved the bank automatically get charged about £200 if it gets past the inital screening, therefore they may honour it in the hope of avoiding the £200 charge.

 

[Lincs Debt Collection]

A cheque guarantee card is only valid for one cheque per day, if someone were to go out and hammer a cheque book using the card unloading 25 cheques out of the book then only one will clear (assuming there is no funds or overdraft in place) if however they wrote one cheque out per day they would all clear until the bank defaulted the account. The cheque itself however is the evidence that the person owes the money hence keep it and a copy. A bank should you send the customer a letter through them is obliged to forward it for you but will not reveal there details under data protection. If you have there name, business name, and approx location I would be able to find them for you. A few phone calls and I will probebly have them send you a payment as well.
Let me know or PM me.
Kind regards
www.rentbailiffs.com
Lincolnshire Debt Collection

 

[silklink]

Thanks Simon & Tony for your suggestions on the Ombudsman - I am thinking along that route. Also, sine the government now own most of the banks, I am writing to my MP. As a small business, we need guarantees from the government that if we accept cheques as a trading payment, then there must be fail-safe guarantees put in place to ensure that the cheque is honoured with cash by the banks. If a customer of the bank defaults or acts fraudulently, that should not be an issue for the shop-keeper. In this case, the bank should send a bailiff around to their customer to physically remove their card and prevent them from further fraudulent trading.

Lincs DC; I have read that the guarantee system supports only one cheque per day. As the trader, you are supposed to cross out the customer's cheque book to show that one cheque has been spent on the trading day - how many traders do that?

It just goes to highjlight how pathetic the guarantee scheme is

 

[PaulPaul]

its horrible when people rip you off, get a chip and pin machine and a fake note detector pen.

 

[Lime One]

You could also try a low cost option of writing to her c/o her bank advising her that the cheque has not been honoured and unless she pays you, including costs by alternative means within 7 days you will report the matter to the police and also take civil recovery action.

The bank will pass the letter on and advise you of the date it was done to her address. They will not disclose any information on her whereabouts to you but would have to if it became a police matter.

It is also possible,if a tad tedious to issue court proceedings via the bank to the debtor, depends on how strongly your wife feels about this and whether you want to expend more money on the problem.

 

[silklink]

A result

Wrote to the customer's bank a while back now. Waited. They responded and asked for the original cheque. Sent that and waited. Today....

Got a bank cheque to cover the debt.

Didn't get any interest, but at least we recovered the debt.

In the letter I emphasised the view that the cheque was accepted only on the grounds that it would be paid and was backed by a valid guarantee card. I mentioned that my next steps would be to FSA (not sure if that is a good thing now in the light of last night's news:|), but didn't go too heavy on that. Just stuck to the contractual viewpoint.

I hope this might help others in a similar position, although my wife no longer takes cheques

 

[Chippie]

Congratulations!! Well done for sticking to it, great news.

 

[lesliedocherty]

great news