Checking CE Marks?

scm5436

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Nov 22, 2007
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How do we check a claim of CE certification? eg. If we're buying from a Chinese supplier and they say their product is CE certified how do we know it's true? We have no idea what a CE certificate looks like and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to knock up a convincing looking one in photoshop or whatever...

Is there a reference on the manufacturers certificate that we can look up somewhere official?
 

scm5436

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Nov 22, 2007
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ok, but those are two kind of different issues:

1) Is the CE mark genuine?
2) If it is you're still liable?

At this moment I want to check no 1 first.

For the second item, presumably if you do get sued the fact that the product has been officially tested and approved must go some way towards a legal defence? I mean, if the experts get it wrong how are we supposed to judge if it's safe or not...?

Also, were you implying that CE testing could take place in China, and that it wouldn't be as good as EU testing?
 
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Karimbo

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    another reason why you're screwed competing with he Chinese.

    Customers are happy to buy on ebay or aliexpress, shipped directly from CHina buying dangerous items violate every British safety standard possible. You try and compete and sell these low cost items and all the CE markings are fake so liability falls on you.
     
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    TTC

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    wooo
    Sorry I was limited.You can search the Offical web of CElab.Three dot celab dot com.They release the CE certification.There you can find what you are looking for
    AD...We are general agency of CElab in China
     
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    finest123

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    Once you see the CE certificate that they hold it will will have a company name. I believe the most popular one is intertek who have offices all over the world (head office in UK). So you simply need to ring the company up and give them the details off the certificate for verification. Once it is verified, I would also ask them if you imported that product if it does infact comply with all EU regulations.

    I would be interested to hear off anyone who has got CE testing done and what company they used.

    Also take a look at market selling places and see some sellers feedback. Buyers moaning about things melting and setting on fire. Quite mad how they are not checked upon import.
     
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    There're thousands of labs are accredited to conduct CE testing and release CE certificates, yes, Intertek is a big lab among them, but only one of them.

    You will not be able to judge a CE certificate is true or not, until you contact the lab (which released the certificate) and send the certificate to them for verification. Normally, the lab will reply you within a few working days.

    It's right, you, the importer are liable for safety of the products you import to Europe. A true CE certificate will give you more confidence the products are good, but cannot guarantee you they are indeed good, and cannot exempt you from liability.

    CE certificate only proves the "tested sample" was safe, it does not mean the mass production is at same quality. That's why a QC inspection is needed.

    If you want to be sure, ask a trustworthy QC to inspect the final production, then take a random sample and send to a reputable lab you trust (such as Intertek), and NOT to ship the products until test report comes out with a positive result.

    Not sure your China suppliers will agree it, but you can raise the topic before place order; if the suppliers trust you're serious, they have to re-think it, and usually the bad suppliers will find a excuse and reject your orders, so it's actually a way to qualify your suppliers.
     
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    The only 100% guarantee is to have the product tested your self, however, in reality, the only thing it will prove is that the sample meets the standards.

    Factories frequently change components for supply and cost reasons, which technically invalidates the approval!

    Tested, approved or not, whatever you bring into the UK you are liable for!
     
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    finest123

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    I wonder how many companies actually do additional checks after getting the CE certificates. I am sure the big companies who have the money could easily afford it. Some CE certificates are well over 3K each. I can see why some small companies do not bother buying a CE certificates as its only as good as on the batch its taken from really.
     
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    lww

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    There is no such thing as CE Certification, it's "CE marking" - therefore there is no way to check whether something is "validly CE certified". To clarify a little, there are many companies that offer CE testing and possibly offer a "certificate", but ultimately the only requirement is to CE mark certain products for sale in the EU - see here:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ce-marking

    Ultimately, it's up to you as manufacturer (or distributor) to perform the necessary due diligence and steps in order to mark goods as appropriate. If you are importing from China IMO you either need to CE test through a reputable EU company, or you need a clear understanding of what matters for the type of product you are selling/distributing and clear evidence of testing/results.
     
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    'There is no such thing as CE Certification'

    Not correct. When an item is tested to standards, the lab issues a 'Certificate of Conformity'. Companies can also self certify, which is very risky if you do not know what you are doing.
     
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    lww

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    Not correct. When an item is tested to standards, the lab issues a 'Certificate of Conformity'.

    A testing company can issue a certificate of conformity if they like, but that is just their own declaration, it has no basis in law because there is no requirement to have a "CE certificate" and there is no database or register to "check" a CE certificate. CE testing firms will obviously want to push their services but I've never seen anywhere that states a statutory requirement to obtain a "certificate of conformity" (as opposed to the documentation/test requirements included in the link above) - I'm happy to be corrected if you have a link? So in response to the original post(er), I maintain that what matters is what is in the link from the government website (which does include documentation/evidence of tests in some form).

    Companies can also self certify, which is very risky if you do not know what you are doing.

    Yes it probably would be an unnecessary risky for many items, but obviously it depends on what the product is. But companies should at least be aware that they have a choice as to how they CE mark and that there is no requirement as such to have a "CE Certificate" in the form suggested above.
     
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    The CE cert should be tied to the test report.

    As you mentioned, that I am aware of, there is no central database of approvals. Only the labs would have definitive answers, however, for several reasons, they are unlikely to release that information.
     
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    TTC

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    An easy way to verify a CE certification is visiting their web. Find a "check document validity"button on the top.Click in and filled in with the UCN(universal certification number) which you can find on top of a CE certification. Then you can find out if it's a forgery one.
     
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    MOIC

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    An easy way to verify a CE certification is visiting their web. Find a "check document validity"button on the top.Click in and filled in with the UCN(universal certification number) which you can find on top of a CE certification. Then you can find out if it's a forgery one.
    Forgery is one thing.

    Ensuring that the certificate relates to the batch you are buying and that the test was carried out from a sample of the batch you are buying are quite another.
     
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    Ultimately, it's up to you as manufacturer (or distributor) to perform the necessary due diligence and steps in order to mark goods as appropriate. If you are importing from China IMO you either need to CE test through a reputable EU company, or you need a clear understanding of what matters for the type of product you are selling/distributing and clear evidence of testing/results.

    This and only this!

    This discussion reminds me of Monty Python's 'Fish License' sketch for a halibut called Eric. If you really want a cat license (for a cat called Eric) followed by a fish license, you can buy one!

    It's the same as Portable Appliance Testing. Some Wally can come in and sell you a certificate, but there is no requirement for such a person to come in and sell you anything. It has to happen, but there is no requirement to make a song-and-dance out of it.

    There are always going to be people selling all sorts of 'certificates' and telling you that it is the law and is 100% required under EU regulations, but I suggest you actually go to those government documents linked by @lww and read up on the reality of the requirements!

    There was also half a bee license for Eric the Half-a-Bee. (Half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But half the bee has got to be vis a vis, its entity.)
     
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    1) Is the CE mark genuine?
    2) If it is you're still liable?
    For the second item, presumably if you do get sued the fact that the product has been officially tested and approved must go some way towards a legal defence? I mean, if the experts get it wrong how are we supposed to judge if it's safe or not...?
    Also, were you implying that CE testing could take place in China, and that it wouldn't be as good as EU testing?

    EVERYTHING depends on what sort of product you are talking about.

    But let's go through your questions -

    1. The only time a CE Declaration of Conformity can be false or genuine, is if your product falls into one of the categories requiring testing by a so-called 'notified body' who have been granted accreditation for its testing laboratories as well as for its certification activities and was notified for the Single Market of the European Union and will have an EU identification number.

    2. You are always liable if you are the manufacturer or importer.

    3. If the experts get it wrong, then you can sue them - but you are still liable to the customer.

    4. Testing in China, or anywhere else, including the UK, is meaningless, unless completed by an EC registered and approved laboratory and is only required for some products.

    The CE mark is not a certificate or even a statement that such a certificate exists, but a declaration by the manufacturer or importer (i.e. YOU!) that the product complies with all EU directives on safety and other matters.

    The basis for the CE mark is either just a declaration of conformity, or certification of conformity for those products that require testing by an EC registered notified body, together with a declaration of conformity by you.

    The commission itself gives copious amounts of advice on what types of equipment require what type of declaration and/or testing and certification. http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/ce-marking/index_en.htm

    A Chinese CE mark is nearly always 128.7% useless, unless that laboratory used for those tests is a notified body registered with the Commission and is therefore able to issue a certificate of compliance (and not just a declaration of compliance - only YOU can do that!) I am not aware of any Chinese labs thus registered, though there may indeed be some. I have only ever used VDE and TÜV-Rheinland, both of whom have labs in China.

    Simple electronic devices (i.e. devices using between 50V and 1,000V AC and not representing a safety hazard or emitting electromagnetic radiation) usually just require a Class-A , i.e. just a declaration of compliance by you. They fall under 'Low Voltage Devices' and include loudspeakers, microphones, amplifiers, but do not include tuners, mobile phones, TV sets, steam irons).

    You can find various types of declarations at the back of some handbooks. Here is a flow-chart of how the whole thing hangs together from the Verband der Elektrotechnik, Elektronik und Informationstechnik (VDE) https://www.vde.com/en/SiteCollectionDocuments/MCMS/VDE_PI/PDFs/PM92e.pdf

    Here's a typical example -

    EC Declaration of Conformity

    Manufacturer’s Name

    and Address:

    Product: Widget

    Type designation: Woggler

    The designated product is in conformity with the European Directive 73/23/EEC amended by Directive 93/68/EEC and including all other amendments

    "Council Directive on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to low voltage devices".

    Signed and dated.


     
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    paulears

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    The items I am concerned with are higher price items, all with what appear to be correct and verifiable certification but 1 in 6 or so fail when put on a tester - which I do as routine before passing them on to customers. Invariably on these products, the issue is poor grounding, and caused by poor assembly - something the CE scheme doesn't really look at. Every one can be cured with two minutes and a screwdriver. Part of the service I provide is making sure the kit has a test label on it, which otherwise many users would be required to do themselves anyway. I feel happier carrying out this test myself, and I sleep better than I would relying on a piece of paper after a few thousand miles worth of bumpy transport. As we also hire, the testing kit is available and a couple of us do testing so it's no big deal.

    My understanding is that if we supply something that is defective and somebody gets injured, the CE mark means nothing! We're happy to bear this responsibility. The trouble with many potentially dangerous cheap products is that they are safe, until they are not - possibly after a drop, a knock or vibration. CE labelling and my testing won't solve this one, as may cheap products are welded shut, so what is inside is a mystery!
     
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    TTC

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    Forgery is one thing.

    Ensuring that the certificate relates to the batch you are buying and that the test was carried out from a sample of the batch you are buying are quite another.

    As far as I know , A CE certification will be valid for 4 years after released by CElab. It covers all batchs in these 4 years, Not related to any single batch you bought(It's not like SASO or some other certification which was related to just one batch of good imported). Just based on the test result of the sample thay get.You can contact CElab for sure.:)
     
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    MOIC

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    As far as I know , A CE certification will be valid for 4 years after released by CElab. It covers all batchs in these 4 years, Not related to any single batch you bought(It's not like SASO or some other certification which was related to just one batch of good imported). Just based on the test result of the sample thay get.You can contact CElab for sure.:)
    A CE certification means nothing without the required EN71 (or other) tests which are needed for each specific product.

    These EN71 certificates MUST include details of the batch order from where the samples have been tested from to be considered appropriate.

    It's not the CE stamp or mark that is relevant, it's the testing certificate, related to each specific product that shows whether the product has passed safety guidelines.

    A supplier can show you a CE conformity certificate.

    A supplier can show you a copy of a previously tested product.

    It has to be relevant to your batch, your order.

    It's for the importer/distributor/seller to understand what certificates are required and to ensure they are done by an internationally recognised company.

    SGS, Intertek, TUV, UL are all fine for this purpose.

    Ideally, testing should be arranged by the customer or appointed agent, rather than the factory.
     
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    TTC

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    A CE certification means nothing without the required EN71 (or other) tests which are needed for each specific product.

    These EN71 certificates MUST include details of the batch order from where the samples have been tested from to be considered appropriate.

    It's not the CE stamp or mark that is relevant, it's the testing certificate, related to each specific product that shows whether the product has passed safety guidelines.

    A supplier can show you a CE conformity certificate.

    A supplier can show you a copy of a previously tested product.

    It has to be relevant to your batch, your order.

    I've just checked a verified CE certification and here's the explaination:

    A CE certification means nothing without the required EN71 (or other) tests which are needed for each specific product.(Agreed)

    These EN71 certificates MUST include details of the batch order from where the samples have been tested from to be considered appropriate.(No batch order,details of where the samples have been tested from is included)

    It's not the CE stamp or mark that is relevant, it's the testing certificate, related to each specific product that shows whether the product has passed safety guidelines.(Agreed but each kind of specific product, not each batch)

    A supplier can show you a CE conformity certificate.

    A supplier can show you a copy of a previously tested product.

    It has to be relevant to your batch, your order.(It really really has nothing to do with any batch or order.Ask CElab and they will tell you the same thing)
     
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    This thread has answered a great philosophical question that has been troubling great minds for centuries -

    Does one guy who doesn't know what he is talking about, know more or less than a whole group of guys who don't know what they are talking about?

    As I have been doing this CE game for about 20 years, I suggest you all beetle off and reread my posting on the bottom of page one of this thread.

    Once again and for the hard of thinking, it all depends on what type of product you are selling. There are products where you have to test each and every one and there are products where one simple declaration will suffice for all eternity, or at least until the regs change.

    A CE mark is just a statement by the manufacturer or importer that the device complies with all the various rules and regulations as laid down by the EC. What those rules are varies and the rules governing a screwdriver are completely different to the rules governing a pacemaker.

    As for the batch question, it is a bit of a red herring, a the definition of a batch also varies from product type to product type. The need for batch testing by a notified body is usually not required for simple devices, unless there has been a significant change in design. Once again the meaning of the word 'significant' varies from type to type, as do the meanings of the words 'batch' and 'simple'.

    There are dozens and dozens of directives on all the various types of equipment and all you have to do as a manufacturer is sit down for a few days and read all the ones relevant to the product you are selling.
     
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    MOIC

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    It's impossible to generalise for any type of testing, especially EN71 or UKFR.

    However, for these 2 specific types of tests, each order (batch) MUST be tested as well as having a correlation between the test certificate and order/invoice/batch number.

    For UKFR for example, there is no grey area.

    This thread has highlighted the need to understand the product your are importing/distributing/selling as well what your obligations are.

    All the below are different requirements:

    CE Marking (If required and by whom as ell as what it represents)

    Required Certification for the product.(These are updated frequently)

    Licences (To sell a specific product)

    Guidelines (Due diligence where no certificate is required)

    To try to understand all requirements for all products (in one thread) is an impossibility.
     
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    Blimey.... after reading these blogs all the work we have done in the last 2 months is a waste of time. It seem someone like me trying to find a new product with limited resource (ordering a 300 units ...Power Banks) its just to complicated, and to have verified going to be very costly and just not feasible . The last thing I would want is to worry if the product I have invested in with a view to retail is safe or not. Both companies that I have had samples from continually say they have all the certification necessary and sell to large companies around the world... clearly this is what they think but not 100% true if one wants to sell in EC....I guess that's the end of it for me
     
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    Its not difficult to have a product tested and doesn't cost the earth.

    This is what I try to get through to people!

    I have no idea what you mean with a 'power bank' - PSU? Battery? What? But whatever it is, chances are that it either requires nothing more than a declaration by you, or a simple electrical safety test.

    It may just be that the necessary tests have already been done for the manufacturer, in which case, ask for a copy of those test certificates.
     
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    MOIC

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    Power bank = "Exactly what it says on the tin"

    It gives you additional power should your mobile, ipad, laptop or anything else that needs power via a battery has run out.

    It's generally connected via the USB or mini/micro USB lead and can give you 2 or 3 times full power, depending on the mAh the power bank has.

    A smartphone battery rarely last a full day if you are using it full time with downloads and streaming etc etc.
     
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    TTC

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    its just to complicated, and to have verified going to be very costly and just not feasible .
    Both companies that I have had samples from continually say they have all the certification necessary and sell to large companies around the world

    Not that complicated,just as I posted on page 1:
    An easy way to verify a CE certification is visiting their web(Google CElab). Find a "check document validity"button on the top.Click in and filled in with the UCN(universal certification number) which you can find on top of a CE certification.

    Won't cost you more than 5min.
     
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    It gives you additional power should your mobile, ipad, laptop or anything else that needs power via a battery has run out.

    So it's a silly name for an additional battery!

    It is, I assume, below 50V and has a 230V charger to go with it, so it is a 'low voltage device' (between 50V and 1000V) and a simple declaration will do, though an electrical safety test for a few Quid is advisable. The manufacturer is likely to have done this already and the importer can ask to see a copy of this test certificate.
     
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    paulears

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    They are 5V devices, they supply via USB, and get charged via USB, and none I've had experience of come with a charger, although I see adverts for some that do, but they tend to use separate standard USB chargers.

    What is clear, though, is that there are issues with these things. EE(Orange) have been bombarding me with recalls for one they supplied for free as a gift. A few overheated, and lithium cells have substantial bad press, and as a result even Royal Mail will plaster huge warnings on any parcel declared to contain them (although two large ones that arrived from Belgium today, had no mention on them at all!)

    This recall must have cost EE dearly - and they've been asking for them to be returned to any EE shop, where they give you a £20 voucher for the free power bank.

    Importing these things is simple, but with a product capable of causing real issues, any Certification should at least satisfy the requirements of your insurance company.
     
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    MOIC

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    In order for power banks to be shipped from China, they must have an MSDS report attached with the invoice.

    I suspect many have forged reports, or do not correlate with the order being shipped.

    Unfortunately some importers are also to blame as they seem content to want to cut corners if it means paying a cheaper price.

    It's dangerous, as many who imported the "Hoverboards" last year found out and had their fingers burnt.
     
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    Search for the EE recall - they have had a problem with these products and I would like to think that they would have been diligent!
     
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