Can't get joy out of eBay

[Jezclayton]

I recently bought a netbook on eBay which was advertised as having 3G built in. I used eBay's ask a question to confirm it did indeed have inbuilt 3G and having received confirmation proceeded to make my purchase.

Upon receipt it bacame apparent there was no inbuilt 3G and the vendor eventually agreed to refund my money via PayPal which is how I paid and arrange for a courier to collect the item. This was never done, so he still has my money and I have the netbook.

The real confusion is:-

1) The item was advertised as being located in the UK and was shipped from the UK.
2) The transaction was carried out on eBay UK and paid via PayPal UK.
3) Having read the small print hidden at the back of the eBay advert, it appears the vendor is registered in Hong Kong.
4) eBay tell me I must return the item to Hong Kong with tracking at my own expense if I want any chance of getting my money back as it is a cross border transaction.

How can this be right? I have done nothing wrong and yet am being made to pay to put the vendor's mistake right without any guarantee that I will get my money back in any case.

The vendor, Simply Electronics Ltd (UK company dissolved and now apparently registered in Hong Kong) has a wonderful website simplyelectronics.net and also a number of threads dedicated to problems customers have had with getting refunds.

What would you do in this situation?

Many Thanks

 

[Deleted member 61074]

I would buy a 3G dongle it will cost you less than return postage to HK

Having said that I have an Asus netbook where the sim (orange)is located under the back panel, it took ne a while to locate it. Then I decided it was worthless to me as at the time orange charged £2 per day for 3G. Thus I used my USB dongle with my preferred provider

 

[daniel.benson]

Car-phone warehouse have a good deal which i got,

3g dongle with 5GB pre-loaded £20.00

Would be better than sending it back.

 

[Jezclayton]

I have used dongles in the past and found they don't work very well when your only desk is a dashboard. I wanted a netbook with inbuilt 3g and have since bought another one that does have the required feature. I should also add, in both cases I paid a premium for the in built 3G.

In the meantime I am stuck with an unwanted netbook. Any thoughts as to how I might expediate a refund, or alternatively the legality of the transaction.

 

[The Resolver]

Very interesting issue. It shows how the eBay/PayPal model has been developed in such a way as to , albeit unintentionally, compromise consumer legislation. This is not, as here, always prejudical to the consumer since in one notorious example they prejudice the rights of the sellers ( ie eBay's T&C that claims 'auctions' on their site are not really auctions with the result, if legally sound -but not yet tested in court SFAIAA- that the seller does not have the benefit of the auction based protection from the Distance Selling Regs).

I presume (you say 'recently') you bought from the HK company (registered there in 2007 whereas the UK company was dissolved in January 2010). I think a key question is whether you actually paid through PayPal via a credit card as the funding source or by debit from your bank account. If the former then you can simply claim through the card's Chargeback scheme ( for which they are ultimately liable under s75 of the Consumer Credit Act) and under which they will re-credit your card.

 

[steve23]

Hi,

Yes - I was interestedt in how you paid - you said it was paypal.

Have you filed a dispute with PP ?

In my experience as a seller, when things went wrong (or at least, the customer thought they had) no one ever contacted Ebay as such, just PayPal.

I know they are now one and the same, so perhaps you mean PP.

Anyway, once the PP dispute was filed, that was pretty much it - buyer won every time.

PP simply took the money back.

It's not always fair, but it did seem that you could buy with confidence vai PP.

All the best

Steve

 

[Naughty Vend]

Royal Mail 'Airsure' is fully tracked and does not show the piece weight.

 

[LawontheWeb]

did you pay with a credit card? if so, problem solved.

unders section 75 of the consumer credit act your credit card provider is equally liable for the problem, (i.e visa, mastercard or whoever). Address your complaint to them, and even issue a claim for in court to them, they will settle within 3 days! I did exactly this with a problem with flight cancellation as KLM wasn;t playing ball.

 

[Jezclayton]

Thanks for your responses.

I did pay by card to a degree (£155 card, remainder £20 automatically taken from my Paypal account balance), however it is a Natwest business Mastercard which I don't think is either a credit card (balance taken monthly) or debit card (monthly statement as opposed to immediate debit). I will phone the bank tomorrow to find out if I enjoy any of the usual protection, though suspect the answer will be no as my understanding is the Consumer Credit Act doesn't cover business transactions. Worth a punt though.

I tried to open a dispute with PayPal but unfortunately it just refers me back to eBay who as already mentioned are not offering any assistance other than to send the item to Hong Kong at my expense. How they think that just I will never know.

Many thanks.

 

[Jezclayton]

As an addition to the above, I have just enquired as to my options were I to post the item to Hong Kong, with both tracking and signature as stipulated by eBay. The parcel weighs 2.2kg and the cheapest service is £69.79 which is Global Priority.

This item was advertised as being UK located, was delivered from the UK and the requirement that I should return it to Hong Kong is quite incomprehensible. I feel eBay are being very unhelpful. I have tried to query this with them, however whilst they say they will get back they don't and today I have received an email requiring me to provide tracking information by 28th February after which the case will be closed.

I really have lost all faith in eBay.

Many thanks.

 

[Jezclayton]

If you are interested, this is the eBay item number -300513690049.

What I find strange is:-

Item located in London yet eBay say return to Hong Kong

1. Listing stated "Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing", but not return postage apparently if they send you a dfifferent item.
2. The contact email address is given as [email protected] which I assume is French, the address is in Hong Kong, the website simplyelectronics.net is held in California and the goods are shipped from a warehouse in the UK.
3. If you contact customer support at simplyelectronics.net they say they can't help because the item was sold on eBay.
4. We have requested a VAT invoice (any invoice would do), but the vendor has declined to provide any invoice stating " Thank you for your email and our sincere apologies for the confusion.
   We regret to inform you that after checking, since the item was purchased to our Ebay storefront, we are unable to process the VAT as due to special arrangments we have made on your behalf, we do not charge any of our customers VAT.
   We seek your kind understanding for this matter and please be assured that our items are already at its best value.
   Meanwhile, should you have further queries, please feel free to email us again."

Unless I can find a solution fast, it looks like I will just have to keep the item, even though I have no use for it.

 

[LawontheWeb]

good luck with section 75 - even if business, if it was credit - teh same principal applies even if only part payment by credit card. The reason for the law is with credit in essence is the credit provder bought the goods for you and you paid for them later in a separate contract. KNown as collateral contracts - i.e you entered into a contract with the seller but so did mastercard..

deffinitely explore this and make a complaint to the credit provider as at the very elast paypal will respond to them more quickly that to you.

 

[jlmns]

This is what winds up UK eBay sellers - we get clobbered if we sneeze at the wrong time! eBay won't defend us at all against unfair behaviour from buyers - and we've had listings pulled on a whim. Yet overseas traders seem to get away with it. This is one of the reasons why I will only trade with UK sellers.

Going from the message you've posted it all sounds rather suspect. I do really wish you all the best with this.

James

 

[rubberdubber]

Why not play them at their own game....

simply send a small light box (with a piece of tissue in it) recorded delivery to their addess - will cost £6 odd

put the tracking details into paypal.

you have abided by their stupid rules - and paypal will return your money.

I had to do this when some seller sent me the wrong toners, Paypal wouldn't refund me until i sent them back, and the seller refused to refund me for their mistake.

Paypal and ebay have no right to withhold your money, the seller should arrange to have the goods collected at their own cost, you should not have to send it back at your own expense.

 

[steve23]

I gotta say, unless someone can highlight a major flaw, what rubberdubber has suggested would be very tempting !

All the best

Steve

 

[rubberdubber]

Sorry I know its not 'ethical' but why should paypal and ebay be allowed to be judge and jury.

They don't abide by the rules of distance selling - nor the sale of goods act, both which are on your side.

You have to make the goods available for collection, any recourse, you have you money back, tell the seller to come and get them.

 

[Jezclayton]

This is whst I find so irritating. The vendor agreed to refund the money and collect the netbook. This was all recorded within eBay resolution and it was only when the refund never came that I escalated the case. I expected eBay to request the vendor to carry out his offer and was shocked that they instead required me to send the item to Hong Kong at my expense (£70).

In order to keep the case open, I did send a letter tracked to Hong Kong today, however rather than empty I included a copy of the vendors offer to refund and collect. Unfortunately I expect eBay to suspend my account once it becomes clear what I did, but I am pi""ed at their authoritarian attitude and refusal to answer my emails.

I have copied all the correspondence to my bank and can only hope they are able to intervene. It's a shame I really have no use for the netbook, but I suppose the worst that can happen is that i get to keep it and lose my eBay account, Must have had this for over ten years and 100% feedback as well.

EBay just don't appear to care anymore. Well if I do lose the account I guess it's for the best and I will stick to Amazon in future.

 

[rubberdubber]

Unfortunately I expect eBay to suspend my account once it becomes clear what I did, but I am pi""ed at their authoritarian attitude and refusal to answer my emails.

it shouldn't happen ....
Paypals terms are that you have to send the goods back at your own cost..
you have 'potentially' done this simply stick the tracking number into paypal system and hopefully when they review the case they can see that the item has been returned as per their terms and conditions. They should then return your money.
Its the other sellers word against yours if its an empty box, you don't have to prove what was in it - just that you sent it.

About a year ago, i ordered a set of laser toners, the seller sent me the wrong ones (unfortunatly half the value of the ones I should have received) I immediatly contacted the seller who told me to return them, but as they were heavy and valuable and to scotland it was going to cost over £20 to return them. The seller said that they wouldn't refund my costs for sending back the item.
I spoke to trading standards who told me it was my right to get my money returned at it was against the sale of goods act - not as described, I did not have to return them, just make them available for collection.

I ended up speaking to a paypal employee who refused to give her surname (against the rules) who said they wouldn't refund my money unless i returned the goods, they didn't care what the sale of goods act stated - it was their rules.... but why should i have been the one out of pocket ?

eventually i sent 1 toner of the 4 back recorded delivery, paypal refunded my money as i had 'complied' which their crappy rules.
the seller never contacted me to ask for the other toners and so they sat in my cupboard for 9 months awaiting collection, I eventually sold them (on ebay)

If the seller had been decent in the 1st place - sent me the new ones, and picked up the wrong ones at the same time, the problem would have been resolved and every one happy, unfortunatly some sellers are just bad at customer service.
Paypals and ebay rules stink and there isn't protection for buyers when things go wrong,

I don't generally have a problem with sending things back, but paypal allow you to print postage from their site, why they can't do the same on a return, then add it on to the total owed is beyond me

Good luck !

 

[Jezclayton]

Couldn't agree more and I guess time will tell as to what actually happens. Thanks for your input.

 

[Naughty Vend]

Royal Mail 'Airsure' is fully tracked and does not show the piece weight.

Read between the lines Jez, think about the simple solution to your problem here in that you need proof of postage for the return and that be an inexpensive method...

 

[Jezclayton]

I can read between the lines alright, it's just that I'm a bit old fashioned and have built my business on trust. The good guys on here know what I mean and would have refunded the money without inconvenience to myself. We used to call it a gentleman's agreement, but probably not widely recognised these days. There are those who are seek to defraud people at every opportunity, but whilst they bemoan the lack of trade, I still have referrals coming in.

I sent a tracked envelope to satisfy eBay's rules, however included a reminder that the goods are available for collection. If eBay refund my money the vendor is free to collect. If they don't refund, I have at least got the netbook. If eBay refund and they don't collect, I will no doubt send a reminder along with a deadline after which the goods will be disposed of.

Unfortunately, the bad news is for eBay's international sellers. In future I will direct my business in Amazon's direction who at least seem to recognise the importance of customer service, a department eBay are sadly lacking in.

Once again, thanks everyone for your input.

 

[Laura1000]

What an awful situation however you have highlighted that ebay are fine when everything is going well with purchases but when there is a dispute they really are very unhelpful. I hope you get this matter sorted soon and you get the response you need!

 

[Jezclayton]

As an update since my last post, the item was received in Hong Kong and interestingly enough I received an email from the vendor on the next working day confirming that a refund was being initiated (whatever that means). I also subsequently received an email from eBay customer support confirming that the item is shown as delivered in Hong Kong, however the couriers web site does not show the exact location it was delivered to. I was asked to provide proof of postage by replying to the email within three days. Well the eBay Resolution center did not provide any option to reply to the email so this was done directly from my browser and included the proof of postage attachment, which clearly showed the full address, along with a copy of the acknowledgment from the vendor. The next day I received an acknowledgment from eBay customer support.

This morning I was notified the case was closed and once closed there is no option to re-open it. The reason for it being closed was given as the required tracking information had not been provided. There is NO APPEAL.

I tried, as I have done on numerous previous occasions, to speak to eBay however you need a pin and getting one seems nigh on impossible for a case in resolution center. In this instance it declined to give me a pin stating the case is closed. I used the option to proceed with the call any how and eventually got to speak to someone who just takes your name and then transfers you to a message stating all lines are busy and to press option 5 for ring-back after which the call is terminated. I previously tried ring-back and never received any call.

Needless to say my opinion of eBay is somewhat damaged. For a case that should, in my view, have been so straightforward (the vendor sent the wrong item and admitted it, even agreeing to refund the money but never actioning the same) I get the impression that eBay are so biased towards their larger vendors that they will make life as difficult as possible for any mere customer that dares to raise a complaint.

A summary of my experiences are as follows:-

1. Before buying anything on eBay, always check where the vendor is located. Just because the item is located in the UK, it does not necessarily mean the vendor is. If you have a dispute and eBay require you to return the item it will be to the vendor's location (in this case Hong Kong) and not the original item location. Postage costs may make this prohibitive.
2. Do not believe eBays blurb about Resolution Center and there even being an appeals procedure. There is none - Once a case is closed it is closed.
3. Any emails sent will not register on your account unless sent via the eBay window. You are not always given the option to reply to emails from eBay, in which case you can't reply.
4. If you send an email from your browser, you will receive a standard thank you email from customer support, but from there I suspect they go straight into the bin. I have never received an actual reply to any email sent this way.
5. Contacting eBay via phone is deliberately obstructive. There preference is that you utilise a pin number which you have to get from the website. Getting a pin for a case in resolution centre is fraught with difficulties and will lead you round and round in circles. I did on one occasion get a pin however was told by the Representative they couldn't help since a case had already been opened within Resolution Centre?
6. If you phone without a pin, you will get as far as having your name taken then you are transferred to a number which is always busy and requires you to select call-back prior to hanging up.
7. Don't believe you will ever get a call-back. Over five times we have requested this option and not once have we received a call-back.
8. Fortunately, I only sent a tracked letter to Hong Kong. If I had sent the original item I would now be out of pocket to the tune of £255. I at least still have the netbook, even though I have no use for it.
9. EBay sucks - Never had this problem with Amazon.

 

[Jezclayton]

I really should put this to bed now, but I feel eBay have treated me appalingly and am displeased that you get no opportunity to respond. I could always email eBay, but what is the point? Another standard response with no follow-up. Faceless........!

 

[logicfusion]

I think a key question is whether you actually paid through PayPal via a credit card as the funding source or by debit from your bank account. If the former then you can simply claim through the card's Chargeback scheme ( for which they are ultimately liable under s75 of the Consumer Credit Act) and under which they will re-credit your card.

Can you still claim s75 protection if you have paid PayPal for the goods via credit card?

I maybe misreading this, but the text here suggests otherwise.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases

Perhaps a credit card would just roll over if it was a small amount being claimed, but potentially they have a legal argument here don't they if they really wanted to be stubborn?

 

[wormcity]

Hi
What a nightmare for you, glad you never sent the goods back.
I think you will find that section 75 doesn't qualify when paid through paypal - as its classed as '3rd party'

As I understand it you must have a direct relationship with the company supplying the service.

i.e if you paid the Hong Kong company direct - then section 75 will count, but paying via paypal doesn't.

However you can still do a chargeback from your bank, talk to them, you might be lucky

Ronnie

 

[Jezclayton]

Thanks for the information on S75. Very interesting reading and yes I do take the point on Paypal transactions. It seems a change to the Consumer Credit Act is perhaps needed to bring things up to date. At the time of it's drafting, Paypal wouldn't even have existed. None-the-less, my bank does still seem to be progressing the matter and haven't as yet said they are unable to help.

Another surprise. I received an email from eBay this morning offering me the opportunity to appeal the decision which had previously been marked as FINAL. The email told me how to appeal, but the path given came up with a dead end - i.e. no appeal option provided. I decided once more to try phoning and, would you believe it channels previously blocked had suddenly opened up. I got to speak to someone! That person told me that they had in fact received the proof of postage sent on Friday 11th, but it hadn't filtered through their own internal systems in time to prevent closure on Monday 14th. He also told me the email telling me how to appeal was incorrect in the procedure given. The mind boggles. To cut a long story short, it appears without any admission, they realise a failure of their systems may have occurred and he is appealing the decision on my behalf. I now just have to wait another 48 hours for the outcome.

The netbook is still packaged ready for collection, so I am hoping the money will be refunded and then it is up to the vendor to contact me.

For obvious reasons I am not holding my breath, but there is at least reason to have hope.

 

[Jezclayton]

Just got the following email from eBay:

eBay ruled in your favour in your dispute case about your purchase from Simply Electronics Limited, and a full refund of 175.00 GBP was sent to your PayPal account.
Please allow 3-5 working days for the refund to be received in your account. eBay will then consider the dispute closed. If you have any questions, please go to the eBay Resolution Centre.

In the space of one day the decision has been ruled as final against me to a decision in my favour. Pray it doesn't change again in the next 3-5 working days.

 

[rubberdubber]

Yaaayy
Result - Well Done !

 

[Laura1000]

Well done for sticking with it!