Cant afford to continue with employee on repeated long sick leave

[Overloaded]

Hi-
we are a small trade company (heating) and my husband and apprentice (worker) are only employees

we spent last two years putting and paying apprentice through qualifications - made him sign a training contract
last year he had over three months off - repeated long sick notes for anxiety and depression, year before one month
now- after complaining he didnt get a christmas bonus, and we explained we cant as hes cost so much money with time off ( we paid him in full initially even though only entitled to SPP- as we thought would be a one off ) he gave another one month sick note six hours later for anxiety and depression january 2023

we cannot afford to run the company like this - my husband is broken doing physical job by himself when he is off sick and
we lose thousands in turned down work over two years and his course cost is 4k and we lost money paying him in full - for which he is oblivious to the effort we have made to pay above the odds
(hes only getting statutory this month so when he gets tiny pay - hes going to throw another fit)

what do we do - we dont trust him anymore to work as last sick note to us appears spiteful
we cant afford to pay a worker who doesnt come in - the company bank account and us are buckling -husband gets overworked and ill
but hes been with us over two years and realise you cant dismiss someone that easily - cant make him redundant as still need a worker


any advice as we dont want to deal with this anymore is bringing us and the company down physically and financially

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Hi @Overloaded . Sorry to hear of your situation.

I assume you have Business Insurance? Have a look as many will provide you with a free telephone number to access free legal advice - give the number a call and tell them exactly what has been going on. They should be able to provide the proper legal advice you need. They should be able to advise on what you can and cannot do, to make sure you everything is done properly.

Good luck.

 

[Newchodge]

Hi-
we are a small trade company (heating) and my husband and apprentice (worker) are only employees

we spent last two years putting and paying apprentice through qualifications - made him sign a training contract
last year he had over three months off - repeated long sick notes for anxiety and depression, year before one month
now- after complaining he didnt get a christmas bonus, and we explained we cant as hes cost so much money with time off ( we paid him in full initially even though only entitled to SPP- as we thought would be a one off ) he gave another one month sick note six hours later for anxiety and depression january 2023

we cannot afford to run the company like this - my husband is broken doing physical job by himself when he is off sick and
we lose thousands in turned down work over two years and his course cost is 4k and we lost money paying him in full - for which he is oblivious to the effort we have made to pay above the odds
(hes only getting statutory this month so when he gets tiny pay - hes going to throw another fit)

what do we do - we dont trust him anymore to work as last sick note to us appears spiteful
we cant afford to pay a worker who doesnt come in - the company bank account and us are buckling -husband gets overworked and ill
but hes been with us over two years and realise you cant dismiss someone that easily - cant make him redundant as still need a worker


any advice as we dont want to deal with this anymore is bringing us and the company down physically and financially

You need to follow your capability procedure. I assume you don't have one, if not get one.

Arrange for the employee to seean occupational health professional, to obtain a report on their current state of health and prognosis. You can only do this with the employee's agreement.

Arrange a formal meeting to discuss their repeated absence and likelihood of being able to sustaion attendance for the future. Put them on a warning that, if their attenance does not improve (set targets and dates) you will move to the next stage.

What is the position with regard to the appreticeship?

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

This is a really tricky one and I don't envy you one bit.

@Newchodge will know the answer, and you'd be advised to consult her professionally on an issue such as this, it will probably be cheaper in the long run.

Good luck with it.

For a starting point, I'd be very interested to know where he is getting a sick note for with six hours notice, when the rest of us are queing six hours just to get through on the GP's phone line in the morning.

 

[pentel]

You have my sympathy.

Apprenticeships are a great way to learn for the right person but are a lot of work for the employing company, probably far more than a first time sponsor realises.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

The employment advice has been great, however, you have to start looking at cutting your losses and letting them go.

Try to resolve things first, but you have to know when to 'draw the line'.

 

[MBE2017]

Sounds like you need to make someone redundant. Take advice.

 

[IanSuth]

Also if they are an apprentice you should have a named contact at the training provider covering that part of their apprenticeship - what are they saying re attendance on that.

You "may" find that they have already started a capability process there and you could/should tie into that - but you really need to take professional advice like @Newchodge

 

[Deleted member 335660]

Certainly use advice by @Newchodge. However, if your turnover is suffering and you have lost faith in the apprentice do you really want to spend more money and time on the case.

You may have a good case for just making the position redundant. Subcontract work and look for qualified person and when you feel up to it later, you can try another apprenticeship.

I would be inclined to invite him in for a meeting first and to discuss the situation and then take action.

 

[Newchodge]

The advice to make him redundant is not helpful. The post is not redundant, it is very much needed. He already has 2 years' employment and could take an unfair dismissal case. Why do that when it can be done properly?

 

[WaveJumper]

Personally I think previous advice on consulting with @Newchodge before making a costly mistake is the way to go. Get this wrong and you leave yourself wide open to a claim.

Dismissing staff

How to dismiss staff fairly, working within dismissal rules and dealing with dismissals relating to whistleblowing.

www.gov.uk

 

[Overloaded]

Thanks for all the replies - my husband actually wants to go down route of working on own - and useing a subcontractor - occasionally - maybe three days a month or so

Is this enough so make home redundant - now can’t afford and don’t need full time employee ? But problem is


we would have to pay redundancy about 2k plus and lose the 4K we paid for his training
As redundancy not mentioned as a leaving option to repay funds in his training contract


We will be doing a back to work interview - to have a formal chat about everything

The other thing is he’s about to come into some money - about 100k and don’t want him just calling in sick taking money of us with no intention to return to work - costing us more money

 

[DontAsk]

I thought "sick" notes were now "fit" notes issues when the employee is ready to return, but not necessarily straight into their old duties. They are not usually issued until after 7 days of illness. How did he get one in 6 hours?

 

[Newchodge]

I thought "sick" notes were now "fit" notes issues when the employee is ready to return, but not necessarily straight into their old duties.

Not exactly. All medical notes are now called fit notes (as the government want people who are ill to believe they may be fit!) A 'fit' note can state that the individual is not fit for work for x amount of time, or that they may be fit for work if xyz is done, or that they are now for for work. It is easier to call them medical notes.

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks for all the replies - my husband actually wants to go down route of working on own - and useing a subcontractor - occasionally - maybe three days a month or so

Is this enough so make home redundant - now can’t afford and don’t need full time employee ? But problem is


we would have to pay redundancy about 2k plus and lose the 4K we paid for his training
As redundancy not mentioned as a leaving option to repay funds in his training contract


We will be doing a back to work interview - to have a formal chat about everything

The other thing is he’s about to come into some money - about 100k and don’t want him just calling in sick taking money of us with no intention to return to work - costing us more money

May I suggest you simply follow my advice at post #3

 

[Overloaded]

Don’t know how he got one so quick - it’s for depression and anxiety - no recommendations on duties he can do - just signed off until 31/1/2023


Yes going to do post 3 - starting with a return to work interview - discuss the future and absences

He won’t agree to us obtaining medical report I don’t think - to see what he can do- this is this is a one Job role- there isn’t really anything else he can or we need him to do - I could write a formal letter asking - I suspect this will make him angry and him get signed off for another month

 

[Overloaded]

Don’t know how he got one so quick - it’s for depression and anxiety - no recommendations on duties he can do - just signed off until 31/1/2023


Yes going to do post 3 - starting with a return to work interview - discuss the future and absences

He won’t agree to us obtaining medical report I don’t think - to see what he can do- this is this is a one Job role- there isn’t really anything else he can or we need him to do - I could write a formal letter asking - I suspect this will make him angry and him get signed off for another month

 

[Newchodge]

Don’t know how he got one so quick - it’s for depression and anxiety - no recommendations on duties he can do - just signed off until 31/1/2023


Yes going to do post 3 - starting with a return to work interview - discuss the future and absences

He won’t agree to us obtaining medical report I don’t think - to see what he can do- this is this is a one Job role- there isn’t really anything else he can or we need him to do - I could write a formal letter asking - I suspect this will make him angry and him get signed off for another month

You hold the meeting whether he has returned to work or not. The whole point is to establish if/when he will return and if he will remain at work if he does return. If he cannot return within a reasonable timefame you can dismiss. If he returns and is put on a target - nil absence - and goes off again, you can dismiss him.

 

[Overloaded]

When should this meeting or return to work interview be held ? One week before return ?
I’m conscious of the rules about not contacting too much when people off - adding to their worries etc

 

[Newchodge]

When should this meeting or return to work interview be held ? One week before return ?
I’m conscious of the rules about not contacting too much when people off - adding to their worries etc

Currently he is due to return on 1 Feb. I think. Write today to say you would like him to agree to an occ health report about his ability to maintain attendance.

Get yourself a capability policy and follow it.

 

[Overloaded]

I usually use Acas resources - is there a format or way of way of documenting these steps to cover us if we do need to dismiss
I’ll look at capability policy we can implement

 

[Newchodge]

I usually use Acas resources - is there a format or way of way of documenting these steps to cover us if we do need to dismiss

Yes. It is called a capability procedure.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

For Pete’s sake. Call cyndy, cross her palm with silver, she will dot the I’s and cross the T’s, the little twat will be bound to return to his old ways, then you fire his arse. All part of the cost of doing business. This is why I have machines instead of men.

Is it this waster who’s about to come into £100k? All the more reason to do things properly. Usually the advice would be that’s it’s a waste of time trying to recoup training costs from an ex employee with no money. Perhaps not in this case.

 

[Deleted member 335660]

The advice to make him redundant is not helpful. The post is not redundant, it is very much needed. He already has 2 years' employment and could take an unfair dismissal case. Why do that when it can be done properly?

Hi, I was thinking along the lines that if turnover is down they cannot afford the post.

 

[SmartClinic]

As an employer, it is your decision as to what level of absence is acceptable and reasonable. If the employee is absent too frequently, and it is disrupting your business, then you may want to consider a) a referral to occupational health, b) managing the employee through an attendance plan and if a) and b) are unsuccessful, then considering c) a capability based dismissal (not a redundancy!!). If the employee claims unfair / constructive dismissal, an employment tribunal would look to see if you have followed the appropriate steps before dismissing them, so consider a) and b) first.
Give me a shout regarding the occupational health side if you need more help with that.

 

[Overloaded]

Crisis averted - he handed his notice in today and asked for bank details to repay the training course as per contract -


Wonders never cease

 

[Newchodge]

Crisis averted - he handed his notice in today and asked for bank details to repay the training course as per contract -


Wonders never cease

Well, that's a result. Thanks for letting us know,

 

[ctrlbrk]

Well, that's a result. Thanks for letting us know,

Cyndy, or other moderators, given OP's problem has been solved this thread is now unlikely to be used again by him.

May I suggest it is closed so that it does not attract useless posts not adding any value.

 

[Overloaded]

One more thing before closing thread -
Considering his latest sick note goes on until end of month - he quits today
- just after mid month - why not wait until end - but obv he must have another job lined up

Yep - Just had a reference request from new employer ! Would you provide one ? I can’t give a bad review

 

[ctrlbrk]

Just had a reference request from new employer ! Would you provide one ? I can’t give a bad review

Well he's given notice so it's not like they will stay employed with you.

On that note, I would not give a bad review but I would give a factual one, if that makes sense.

 

[MBE2017]

Just reply he joined you on …. Date, and left you on ….. date. Make no other comment.

 

[Bob Morgan]

One more thing before closing thread -
Considering his latest sick note goes on until end of month - he quits today
- just after mid month - why not wait until end - but obv he must have another job lined up

Yep - Just had a reference request from new employer ! Would you provide one ? I can’t give a bad review

"He sets himself an exceedingly low standard that he fails to achieve"

 

[dylanmarlais]

You need to get this as right as you possibly can. Depression is a recognised disability under the Equality Act 2010. This does not mean that you cannot dismiss him but you need to follow procedures correctly. This is one situation where you might need to pay a solicitor to ensure that you take all the right steps in the right order.