buying a established business (retail) and loans

ripplehd

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Jun 22, 2017
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how can i buy a business on leasehold without putting any money down i was thinking of getting a loan worth 200k because that's how much the leasehold is and ill be paying it back in one year. Who will allow me to take out the loan is it banks, unsecure loan companies online, or investors?
 
A

alex@novacommfinance

How long is the leasehold?
If you don't have a deposit, banks and other finance providers can use any other UK property. A first or second charge against your property of second property can raise the deposit for any commercial loan.
Have you considered a bridging loan if you can repay in full within a year?
 
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ripplehd

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Jun 22, 2017
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What does the company actually own?

i.e. what are you buying?
I want to buy a post office i can give you the link via pm if you want more info, so to get straight to the point i want to buy it whilst taking out a loan and i have no money of my own so i'm wondering will banks still lend me 200k if i can give the business itself as security/backup?
 
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Mr D

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Feb 12, 2017
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Profit would be expected to be a lower. You would need to find out the costs and previous profits to get an idea how much profit you could figure.
And figure out if the owner is taking a wage or just taking profits as income - if you want to use the profits to pay loan while wanting to take income too.
 
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ripplehd

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Jun 22, 2017
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Profit would be expected to be a lower. You would need to find out the costs and previous profits to get an idea how much profit you could figure.
And figure out if the owner is taking a wage or just taking profits as income - if you want to use the profits to pay loan while wanting to take income too.
http:// imgur. com/a/Mu9rw
 
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When buying any business, whether it is Boots, EMI, or the local Post Office outlet, you must do the usual due diligence of looking at all the various aspects of the business, such as existing contracts, leasing arrangements and the landlord's demands on a new tenant, TUPE (staff) considerations, taxes, utilities, debts against the business and any other gotchas that might come steaming up from between the floorboards.

You also must look at future developments. A tape recorder factory today is not an enticing prospect! Neither is a bookshop. It is my contention, that a small Post Office is also in the list of doomed animals. That does not mean that such a business is without value, it just means that the future is very uncertain, as all sorts of functions get taken away and put on-line, one by one.

But the purchaser of any business has two more considerations and the are ones that most forget -

1. Is this business an asset, or a liability?

Boots & EMI - When Roberts and Pessina bought Boots for £11bn, it was an asset. It is today an extremely profitable company. When Guy Hands bought EMI, it was in the midst of the end of the CD as a product and it became a massive liability.

The difference was not just in the structure of the two companies, but in the purchasers. Roberts and Pessina are specialists in buying retail companies of all sorts and making them profitable. Hands did not know the first thing about the music business. What is an asset in one pair of hands, can be a massive liability in another!

So you must ask yourself - "Do I know how to run a Post Office? Am I Roberts and Passina, or am I another Guy Hands?"

One of the largest aspects of the asset/liability question is property and real-estate in particular. I like businesses that put me on the right side of the real-estate desk. i.e.the business has to own the shop, if it is to be worth money and remain liquid and creditworthy, even during the hard times.

And banks want collateral, such as deeds to a property.

2. Does the business run itself?

The owner of that building has a business. Every year, that building pays him/her £20,000 for the shop, come rain or sunshine. The owner has to do nothing, other than occasionally look to see if the post-master has transferred the money. That may not be exciting, whizz-bang, groovy and windswept, but it is the very epitome of a business!

Post Offices, on the other hand, do not run themselves. Taking any net profits out of the business as a profit in the books may be a 'tax-efficient' way of extracting payment, but the reality usually is, that is wages. If a couple works in a business and takes £50k p.a. out as profits, that is £50k that must be regarded in your private, mental P&L account as wages and not profit.

Wages get tarted up as all sorts of things, like expenses, profit share, loans and even a few things, such as phantom payroll that are less than totally legal, but are still remuneration and when forking out trouser money for a business, must be regarded as such and taken off the headline-grabbing profit numbers!

So to cut a long-winded explanation short, full gross payment for hours worked by the postmaster and his wife/husband/beagle/aardvark must not be regarded as profit and must be subtracted from the gross profit. If the books show £60k gross profit and they are both working in the shop full-time, but not getting paid, then the real gross profit is more like £10k.

If we use the somewhat Mickey-Mouse calculation of a business being worth four-times gross profit, then (in that example) the owners may think it is worth £240k (4 x gross) but the reality is, that it is worth just £40k as a business.

You may of course, regard the whole thing just as a place of work and how to price up the value of being employed is a totally different kettle of fish!
 
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Clinton

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    @The Byre, it was very patient of you to provide that explanation.

    I was tempted to put a more detailed post together but figured this is probably a bit of a wind up thread! ;)

    I'll repeat my question for @ripplehd:

    How did you calculate that you can pay back £200K back in a year if you have no idea how much of profit the business is making?
     
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    ripplehd

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    Jun 22, 2017
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    In a word, no.

    You don't know what you are buying

    You don't have any evident experience

    You don't understand figures

    You have no flesh in the game

    Every lender in the market will do you a huge favour by declining you
    ok how do you know that all ill just do is go make an appointment at a bank with a business manager and ask him if i could get finance to buy the business and then i can call the seller in front of him and we'll both talk about how we can buy the business on lease
     
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    ok how do you know that all ill just do is go make an appointment at a bank with a business manager and ask him if i could get finance to buy the business and then i can call the seller in front of him and we'll both talk about how we can buy the business on lease

    You've pretty much told us that in Your answers so far

    By all means try to get an appointment. Given 30 years in the industry I can 100% assure you you won't be getting an acceptance
     
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    ripplehd

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    Jun 22, 2017
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    It's threads like this one that make me want to stop giving proper and sensible answers to goofy people who are just hoping to be able to reach for the brass ring.
    its a 19 year old and how will i buy the business then if i'm unemployed and have no funds, can the seller offer me a buy now pay later option where i use the businesses profits to pay him
     
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    Mr D

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    Extremely unlikely they will do that. They could keep the business and have the profits themselves.
    And no guarantee that you would make any profit at all to pay them with. No guarantee at the moment the business is profitable.

    Perhaps as unemployed and with no funds it might be simpler to start small.
    Build up to such a big undertaking.
     
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    ripplehd

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    Jun 22, 2017
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    Extremely unlikely they will do that. They could keep the business and have the profits themselves.
    And no guarantee that you would make any profit at all to pay them with. No guarantee at the moment the business is profitable.

    Perhaps as unemployed and with no funds it might be simpler to start small.
    Build up to such a big undertaking.
    Is it really that hard to buy a freaking business, then if i can't get a loan what can i do because even a small business like a chip shop costs 25k to buy what can i do to buy a business then because its stupid of me asking here if i'm getting negative answers
     
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    Mr D

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    Its not hard to buy a business if you have the money or most of the money.
    A business however is far more than simply handing over money - if you don't know what you are doing you can pay a fortune to lose that money.
    Many business go bust. Lenders take a risk lending us money, often requiring personal guarantee or a house put up as guarantee on the loan.
    In any business there has to be a question of what happens if cannot make enough money. The business folds.

    You are getting negative answers based on what you have told us. We are trying to get you to be realistic.
    Turnover of £265k doesn't mean much on its own, a place with £255k expenses gives you £10k profit - and you'd spend more than that paying a £200k loan. Which banks basically won't lend.
    If you had £180k cash and asked them for £20k maybe... and maybe not. They can be as wary of government closures of post offices as anyone else. Then you are stuck with a lot less profitable business without a post office to draw people in.

    You get together £25k and you can buy the chip shop you have seen at £25k. Then what? You've probably purchased yourself a job working 50 plus hours a week. Nice if you can get paid too but that isn't always possible.
    Can lose that £25k too. What then?

    A lot of us on here are in business, our own or our employer's business. Between us we know some risks, some bad ideas, some insane ideas and some good ideas.
    And experience of banks.
     
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    Clinton

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    It's threads like this one that make me want to stop giving proper and sensible answers to goofy people who are just hoping to be able to reach for the brass ring.
    It's a wind up thread, sir. Nobody but nobody could be so dumb as to think he's entitled to own a business that someone else pays for!
     
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    Mr D

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    so what your saying is ill run away with the business if the seller gives it to me


    Just persuade backers to lend you the money and prove others wrong.
    The seller would be an idiot to give you the business. Except in exchange for a large sum of money.

    Ask yourself this - if you owned an established business would you give it away to someone when you knew it was worth £200k?
     
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    whatever you say, i'm only trying to buy a business because i have never been employed and to @Mr D OK thanks for the advice and hopefully the lenders can give me a huge loan

    You are looking for someone to buy you a job.

    Start a business that is within your means.

    Get a job

    Stop expecting others to do it for you
     
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    Clinton

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    ...hopefully the lenders can give me a huge loan
    Ask them to give you a 0% interest deal. No point in paying interest unnecessarily!

    And ask them to give you a bit more than you need to buy the business. That way you have something to live on in the early days and before you get access to the business bank account to pay yourself a salary.
     
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