Buying a business...

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Hi, I'm in talks with a business owner of a high street shop about buying the business from them, they have a limited company which basically matches their shop name.

My question is, when I buy the business from them, it only includes all assets but the owner has no problem with me keeping the same name of the shop, do I simply setup a new limited company on companies house and set the trading under to "Said shop name" and address?

Am I allowed to do this? would this be the correct way? Or how would this normally work in any circumstance, if you were to buy a shop front business and wanted to keep the name and just carry on as business as usual if it is a limited company which also is registered as the business name.
 

Ione

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There are two ways of buying the business. One is to buy the assets. The other way is to buy the ownership stake (shares) in a company. In a first way, you are buying just the assets, and the liabilities for the previous company are retained in that company. In a second way, you are buying the whole company which includes assets and liabilities of such company. Please note that before to make a choice you should take into account advantages and disadvantages of a way of buying a business. About the advantages and disadvantages, you may find out browsing the internet.
 
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Gecko001

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If you are only buying assets you should make sure that permission to use the trading name is given in writing to you also the transfer of copyright of any logo that the business has should be carried out. You should seek legal advice on all these matters.
 
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Ah thank you, that sounds about right, I shall get that inlcluded in the paperwork.

So in terms of moving forward, I would just register a new limited company in any name I desire and then simply trade as the original business name, this is perfectly fine to do so and wouldn't get us into any trouble? And also would assure that we are a completely new company.
 
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Ione

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Thanks guys, I've spoken to my solicitor and he did say just to set up another limited company and start fresh, this I understand.

But, how can I carry on trading with the same shop name...

Does that mean that you are going to buy just the assets (a shop/premises) from a business owner? If your answer is yes, then in order to carry on trading with the same shop name, you should, as pointed by Gecko001, make sure that permission to use the trading name is given in writing to you also the transfer of copyright of any logo that the business (shop) has.
 
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Ione

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Ah thank you, that sounds about right, I shall get that inlcluded in the paperwork.

So in terms of moving forward, I would just register a new limited company in any name I desire and then simply trade as the original business name, this is perfectly fine to do so and wouldn't get us into any trouble? And also would assure that we are a completely new company.

If you do a deal and agreement correctly (your solicitor shall work on it) you will minimize any potential risks that might happen. Perhaps even will avoid.
 
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Yes lone, thank you. Exactly that, the business is up for sale, lock, stock and barrel including all assets, this is the deal.

I know my solicitor would most likely cover all angles but I just wanted peace of mind from late last night or clarification that this was a normal thing to do when buying business and wanting to keep the same name.. I found nothing of this online when searching.

So I just make sure that the sale of the "business" includes all names and logos/trademarks and allows me the owner to use these moving forward etc.

Thanks guys!
 
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Ione

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It is up to your agreement with the current owner and his will. I had a practice in my country in the similar situation. In an agreement, we specified the owners grants us authorisation to use its trading name, logos, etc., and we paid him a certain amount for such use. However, be aware of a possible current owner's cancellation of the authorization for the use of such name, logos, etc. Perhaps, it would be better to specify that you bought his trademark, logos, etc. Check with your solicitor, since he is aware much better of the UK's laws than me.
 
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Gecko001

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I was under the impression that because the current owner is trading under this name already, there would be complications for me trading under the same name? Or is this perfectly acceptable because we will be two different companies entirely but have once shared the trading name?

All stuff you should discuss with your solicitor. You will be presumably buying the good will which comes with the trading name.
You should make sure that the former owner cannot make any claims on the use of the trading name or use of any logos etc at any time in the future once you take over the business by instructing your solicitor accordingly.
 
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The big question in these cases is always 'Why is the present owner selling?'

Turnover across the sector down? Building works imminent for that street? Major supplier about to go to the wall? Building repairs due? Sales now all go to on-line outlets? Creditors hounding him for old debts? Several staff pregnant or about to otherwise cause problems or expense (TUPE laws again!)? Large out-of-town shed about to be built that will kill the High Street? Lease up for renewal?

There will be something, there always is!
 
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Clinton

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    Yes lone, thank you. Exactly that, the business is up for sale, lock, stock and barrel including all assets!
    You do not seem to understand what @lone said earlier about two ways to buy a business. You are either buying this lock, stock and barrel (shares) or you are buying just the assets. You can't be doing both!

    If you are buying just the assets you can retain the original IP in trading name, trademark etc., as these are part of the company's assets. However, you do need a proper PSA (Purchase Sale Agreement). I would not use the average family solicitor for this but seek out a corporate lawyer specialised in company disposals.

    But I would suggest using professional advice for not just the drawing up of the contract. As @The Byre says there are often skeletons in the cupboard when it comes to sale situations like these. Buying assets is less risky than buying shares, but it is still a lot riskier than many people appreciate. And it's not just the fact that even if you think you are buying the assets you are actually taking on all responsibilities, commitments and liabilities towards employees whether you like it or not!
     
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    Alan

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    Things to think about, if you are buying assets into a new limited company, and check your professional has got covered in the agreement (don't assume )

    1. stock in hand - stock isn't worth as much as the seller thinks it is - the seller thinks it is worth (at least ) what they paid for trade price. In reality though, the real question is what would they get if they were forced to auction all the stock today, maybe 10-15% of trade price!

    2. future liabilities - in a retail setting that means customer returns in the main ( but also customer legal action ) make sure your agreement covers the periods that the seller remain liable and how much is 'held back' or the mechanisms for reimbursing you for returns.

    3. brand - if the price includes the name and brand, ensure that it includes the physical delivery of artwork files - these can be expensive to reproduce if you don't have the proper vector graphics files. Also ensure the transfer of domain names is explicit.

    The list goes on but these are a few I recall
     
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    Thanks for all your answers guys! Really appreciate it.

    The business is assets only, forgive me for my confusion before, I don't think there's any problems in terms of business being bad, the business has been running in the same location for the last 10 years since opening, accounts seem to show roughly the same grossing and net profits for the last 3 years also.

    The owner has had two children one of which is only a couple of weeks old and has had a more of a hands off approach to running the business for the last couple of years.

    The lease is indeed up for renewal but the landlord has apparently agreed for another 10 year lease with a rent review either yearly or something like this, I must look into it again to know for sure.

    I don't think TUPE laws would be a worry, there's 6 employees and I know them all quite well, the business I'm buying I have worked for, for the last 5 years, so I have sort of inside information on how the business has been performing etc which I suppose gives me slight peace of mind know it's doing fairly well.. it's just the first business I'm purchasing, I highly doubt that there's anything malicious of suspecious going on with the intention of the sale.
     
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    <sigh> You can take a horse to the water ...

    I do take advice onboard and I have, I'm just trying to give a better understanding of this current situation, If you're thinking there is much more to what I have said or something untoward, then by all means, tell me and I'll look into it, I appreciate any advice... Hence the reasons for finding this forum and signing up to it.
     
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    Clinton

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    ... If you're thinking there is much more to what I have said or something untoward, ..
    "Untoward"? I'd say "complacent".

    The owner is nice.... so obviously there's nothing wrong with the business!
    The employees are nice ... so obviously they'll never have a dispute with you!
    The landlord is nice ... so obviously he'll approve you for a new lease!
    The business is nice ... so obviously there are no flaws against which you need to protect!
    The law is nice .... so obviously you don't need to worry about TUPE!
    The lawyer is nice .... so obviously he'll do complete financial, operational, commercial and legal due diligence when you're paying him to just draw up a contract!

    You are familiar with the business and know everything ... so what the hell are you doing in here pretending to ask for advice?

    I don't think there's any problems in terms of business being bad,
    I don't think TUPE laws would be a worry
    I have ... inside information on the business... which ... gives me ...peace of mind
    I know my solicitor would most likely cover all angles....

    You come across as unbeliveably complacent / arrogant for someone buying their first business! It's like you desperately want to go ahead and are trying to avoid finding a flaw! Good luck.
     
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    @Clinton is being (IMO) somewhat overly harsh, but then sometime folks do need a wake-up call!

    do I simply setup a new limited company on companies house and set the trading under to "Said shop name" and address?
    Am I allowed to do this? would this be the correct way? Or how would this normally work in any circumstance, if you were to buy a shop front business and wanted to keep the name and just carry on as business as usual if it is a limited company which also is registered as the business name.
    These are very naive questions and typical for someone that needs a person experienced in buying and selling businesses to hold their hand.

    I don't think that a full-blown business broker or lawyer who specialises in this kind of thing is needed here, but the OP needs to grow a pair of smarts ASAP. He has already taken the first steps, by asking basic questions here!

    I want you to think of the business as a used car. The nice guy selling the damn thing may really be a nice guy, but even he is not aware of the rust above the exhaust pipe, the peeling brake lines, the worn clutch plate and the drop-off in power due to a slightly blocked catalytic converter. He's driven the car for a while and now is selling it and could not give a damn - but you should, so it is up to you to get wise and at least get someone who understands cars to look the thing over.

    "Untoward"? I'd say "complacent".
    That is probably true. The car (business) looks nice from the outside, but have you had a look underneath? Did you check the oil for metal particles? Did you look at the brake linings and disks? Did you check the body for rust and are all the door gaps perfectly even?

    With a business, you need to not just go over the books with an accountant, but also check the supplier accounts, the state of the stock and any equipment and put a realistic value on all these things. Talk to customers, talk to town planning officials about what is going to happen to your town in the near future. Talk to suppliers - is this guy paying on time, do the entries in his books tally with supplier statements?

    Then comes good will, potential and owner's wage packet. You may look at the business and use some 'rule-of-thumb' such as 'Gross profit times four!" or whatever you try to use. The problem there is, that profit, gross, net or EBITDA, is whatever you want it to be (well, almost!) For that reason, you need to go over the figures again and again and again. Never mind fancy calculations and P&L - does it make sense on the back of an envelope? Does the broader picture pan-out?

    Potential is up to you, so never add value for potential (unless the business has some magic patent or other IP you could develop). Businesses do not have potential - people (i.e. YOU) have potential!

    The owner's pay packet is irrelevant and does not belong in the value of the business. You already get a pay-cheque, so you are protected by TUPE laws, should somebody else buy the shop.

    And talking of TUPE, the fact that your local solicitor did not flag this up on the first day, tells me that he or she is not really up to the gig! Buying the assets only does not mean that the new owner does not inherit the contracts of employment. If you want to put a family member in the shop and fire one of the staff, the same conditions will apply, as if you were the original owner.

    You come across as unbelievably complacent / arrogant for someone buying their first business! It's like you desperately want to go ahead and are trying to avoid finding a flaw! Good luck.
    This is normal. Who wants to find problems with the perfect used car? It looks great, it drives perfectly and the guy is selling it for £8k when the book price is £16k - and now you are telling me that all the door and panel gaps are not even. Now you are telling me that it is an unregistered accident write-off and is worthless!

    But on the positive side - businesses bought by rank outsiders tend to fail. BUT businesses bought by employees tend to succeed - but only if they go in with their eyes wide open and are fully clued up!

    So good luck!
     
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    P.S. Property prices are starting to wobble and in two years time, the UK may well crash out of the EU without any deal.

    In the morning after, Britain will wake up, yawn, stretch and get out of bed, only to find that it has put its left foot right into the Edgar Allan!

    So when you negotiate the lease, make sure it can accommodate a fall in values, as well as a rise!
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Like Clinton, I have been involved a a number of business acquisitions and disposals over the years. Most - not all - of those were car dealerships, or groups of dealerships. Between the contributors on here we have a LOT of experience in this field. And, I dare to speak on their behalf, probably some scars.

    There are a number of key points already made, and I will strengthen them.

    1. Most solicitors know relatively little about buying a business beyond the paperwork aspects. Such a solicitor is highly unsuitable to advise you.

    2. Whereever you find yourself using soft, non definite words, you need to check yourself. Apparantly. Probably. It seems likely. Trust me, under the skin of every business is a potential time bomb. You must uncover it and make informed choices about the risks.

    3. If you are buying the limited company, you need a contract that robustly allocates all the future risks resulting from past actions.

    4. Ensure you are fully informed on TUPE matters, even if you are just buying the assets.

    5. If you are 'just' buying the assets, make sure those assets are checked, quantified and then checked again.

    6. Make sure you understand the costs associated with taking the business over. They may be very different to the ones in the current businesses accounts.

    7. The current businesses accounts may very well contain some fiction. Make sure you check this.

    And there is much, much more. This is the process we call due diligence. Obviously, the lower the risk, the less robust you might choose to be in this part of business acquisition. But equally, the less due diligence, the higher the risk.
     
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    Hey guys, I thank you all for your advice and suggestions, I'm greatful this community is so helpful.

    After reading your post Clinton I feel as if I have been completed gutted, hung, drawn and quartered! But fair enough, tough love I suppose.

    In terms of TUPE laws, I've seen this;

    A transfer of assets does not usually constitute
    a TUPE transaction as the sale of equipment, contracts, stock and WIP, goodwill etc takes place without a transfer of employees, liabilities and cash assets, debtors, creditors and bank debt/assets. However, if the assets for sale only form part of a business staff may be involved if they are solely employed on the work that the transferring assets was used for.

    As we will be creating a new limited company and assigning these assets we are buying to it, I'm correct in thinking that TUPE law "usually" doesn't apply. We are buying the assets of the business and taking over the lease, goodwill for the name will be given also.. but sure, I will definitely speak to my solicitor about this.

    Fair enough I may sound or look quite naive about this but everybody has to start somewhere and personally I've been self employed and run my own "business" for the last 6 years, as a sole trader at least but obviously this isn't the same as running a full blown business/shopfront with staff, trust is one thing but knowing the internals of a business and knowing that the current owner is doing well and walking into a full book of ongoing "contracts" or "clientele" should be peace of mind no? In my mind it is far less of a risk knowing that we can continue to run the business as is, with an entire database of returning customers already there.

    This may not sound or look good when reading but if you knew the actual business and what service it provides you will understand the "evergreen" potential and recurring customers it would bring and is bringing, which to me would automatically lesser the risk involved here.

    In terms of talking with the local authority about possible future plans or development, this was already suggested/advised by my solicitor and we will be doing a full survey.

    I do appreciate the encouragement some of you have given, I am a very motivated individual and I believe that I can improve profits for the business not just stay stagnant, at the end of the day, this is an investment and not just a cash cow, this isn't a case of I'm using other people's money or mummy and daddies money, I'm using my own from what I've earned so I will make this work.

    Obviously I will be poked and prodded and laughed at here simply because I may not know or realise all the legal aspects but this is the reason I signed up to this forum, to learn from people who do, I don't expect anyone to spoon feed me and I am always willing to do my own due diligence and research which I have been doing.
     
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    Clinton

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    In terms of TUPE laws, I've seen this;
    A transfer of assets does not usually constitute a TUPE transaction (if) ....
    That article you quote was written by a friend of mine called Roger Stirling. If you read it and understood that TUPE does not apply in this case then you really shouldn't be reading any of these documents yourself, you should be getting someone else to read them and explain them to you.

    The business you describe here does not meet any of the conditions Roger outlined for being outside of TUPE! In fact, the TUPE legislation was created for exactly the type of transaction you're entering!

    Fair enough I may sound or look quite naive about this but everybody has to start somewhere...
    I completely agree. However, I have no sympathy for people who admit they are raw beginners but still consider themselves smart enough to "do my own due diligence".

    but if you knew the actual business and what service it provides you will understand the "evergreen" potential and recurring customers it would bring and is bringing...
    Yes, you've convinced me, it's a fantastic business, you should go ahead and buy the blooming thing urgently and before the sellers change their mind!

    I'm out of this thread, it's a waste of time.
     
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    In terms of TUPE laws, I've seen this;
    A transfer of assets does not usually constitute a TUPE transaction as the sale of equipment, contracts, stock and WIP, goodwill etc takes place without a transfer of employees, liabilities and cash assets, debtors, creditors and bank debt/assets. However, if the assets for sale only form part of a business staff may be involved if they are solely employed on the work that the transferring assets was used for.

    As we will be creating a new limited company and assigning these assets we are buying to it, I'm correct in thinking that TUPE law "usually" doesn't apply. We are buying the assets of the business and taking over the lease, goodwill for the name will be given also.

    Have a read-through here - http://www.macfarlanes.com/media/15...protection-of-employment-regulations-2006.pdf

    On page one, you will see two sections - firstly -

    Key features of a “transfer of an undertaking” The undertaking or business (or part):
    • is an “economic entity”;
    • is situated in the United Kingdom; and
    • retains its identity following the transfer.
    In this case, your shop fulfils all three key features.

    - secondly -
    • TUPE does not apply to a sale of shares in a company;
    • TUPE does not apply to a “bare asset” sale i.e. a sale of assets only with no underlying business transfer;
    • TUPE does not apply to contracts for the provision of services relating to the supply of goods;
    • TUPE does not apply to contracts for the provision of services relating to a single event or task of short term duration.
    And in your case, the transfer of ownership fulfils none of these features. The second one is the key - you would be effectively transferring the business.

    If you were to take over the empty shop only and then open up a different type of business, but in that same shop, then TUPE would not apply. Remember we live in a common law jurisdiction and the mains principles of common law are common sense and reasonable expectation.
     
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    You may use any name

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    Lol, Clinton, if my ignorance has offended you this much then perhaps it would be a wise decision to stay away from the thread because in all fairness I'd personally feel more comfortable in reading constructive criticism minus the personal digs but I thank you for your input either way.

    Perhaps I misunderstood or missinterepted the legal aspect of that article or paragraph I pasted and I shall go through it again and also speak to my solicitor about this in our next meeting, there's no need to insult my intelligence or be so abrupt with the words you choose, if I were to ask you a C# or JavaScript question, or perhaps a Python/PHP or HTML5 / CSS / CasperJ/Phamtomjs headless browsers questions and you have no idea what I'm talking to you about, that wouldn't give me the right to treat you like an inferior individual on an online forum would it?

    I'm always willing to learn and I've got a head on my shoulders, as I said before I don't expect anything from anyone, registering to a forum about a certain niche is a good way to obtain great information/guidance, I've already picked up a lot of information here that "IF" my solicitor does not mention, I can, so in my mind, that's a benefit.

    Regarding the TUPE law, would anybody be so kind as to describe or point out the possible complications that might occur with this type of transaction? If I'm correct, from what I've understood so far.. is that contracts for employees will be null and void after the transfer? Might sound silly to all you professionals but wouldn't it be a case of drawing up new contracts for the employees and sitting with them to see if they have any issues signing?
     
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    Now I am going to bite your head off! Stop being thick!

    If I'm correct, from what I've understood so far.. is that contracts for employees will be null and void after the transfer?
    Absolutely not. They are fully in effect, as you have merely transferred ownership of the business. The fact that you did so, without buying the company, but merely all the assets, is irrelevant. The effect is that you bought the business.

    wouldn't it be a case of drawing up new contracts for the employees and sitting with them to see if they have any issues signing?
    No, the existing terms and conditions of employment will continue, unless the employees agree to changes - which, of course, may happen at any time, regardless of ownership.

    Common law principles allow the courts to follow the spirit and intention of the law. It is not a series of hard-and-fast rules, like some mathematical equation.

    By not buying the company, you can protect yourself from those commercial contracts entered into by that company, but you do take over the terms and conditions of employment, as the underlying business activity remains the same.
     
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    You may use any name

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    Thank you The Byre, so I've completely "got the rotten end of the stick" here, so the TUPE laws/regs MEAN that the employees current contracts do transfer over.. in my situation.

    So if I've already seen the contracts or (request to see the employees contracts before hand officially) and I am quite happy with them all in terms of meeting everything within them, then I'm assuming everybody is happy? Or am I being thick again :p..

    I'm just trying to obtain as much information myself to prepare myself for any future events that may arise and currently the TUPE law seems to be one of the main priorities here within this thread from what most have advised.

    There are 4-6 employees in total, not a massive amount here, obviously this doesn't mean that the law is irrelevant which is why I'd want to do things properly, which I will do.

    We will be creating a new company indeed, as you said which will or should help when it comes to anything in the past with the previous owner dealings.
     
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    Clinton

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    Lol, Clinton, if my ignorance has offended you ...
    It's not your ignorance but your arrogance, and obstinacy.

    You were told about TUPE. You blew it off and said you didn't think it applied. You were told again by others (and me) that it does apply. But you still maintained that it didn't. You even went and found an article that tells you TUPE applies, and you still came back to say that TUPE doesn't apply.

    You've finally accepted it now, having been dragged to this point kicking and screaming.

    It's your arrogance in refusing to accept advice from people who are a little more familiar with the subject. Arrogance, not ignorance. That's why I'm not helping you further and won't bother to explain why TUPE is just one of the issues, nor will I tell you all the other issues you need to be checking out.

    But just wanted to clear what you said about me. I have no problem with people who happen to lack knowledge on a specialist issue and I don't get "offended" by their lack of knowledge.
     
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    Supercoach

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    I'm just trying to obtain as much information myself to prepare myself for any future events that may arise and currently the TUPE law seems to be one of the main priorities here within this thread from what most have advised.

    TUPE is just one of the potential problems you would have completely misunderstood and fallen foul of and it is a symptom - it shows that whatever your skills in other areas, this kind of business acumen is not your forte!
    The problems encountered in this type of business situation are best not learned by experience and it's not the things that you don't know that will hurt you: it's the things you don't know you don't know!
    Get proper professional advice (and choose carefully) is my input - don't try to do due diligence yourself.
    Hope this helps.
     
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    Lawyer

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    Short answer - yes if you buy the assets of a business one of those assets may be a registered trade mark (search at ipo.gov.uk) which is assigned to you ( make sure they sign all the assignment paperwork for any registered trade mark) and if not registered then you will include a clause in the asset purchase agreement that the sellers will immediately change the company name on completion (as well as a non competition clause) to a very different name and not use the name and that you are taking an assignment of all goodwill in the name.

    Make sure you know the pros and cons of asset and share sales. If you take assets that means you can pick off those you want and leave behind liabilities (or most of them) . However any existing contracts, the lease, employment contracts all need to be moved over to your new legal entity / company so if there are key existing contracts then you may want to check before you buy that the other party - landlord etc will actually be prepared to contract with you. It is only a shop so I doubt that is a problem. If you buy the assets from a limited company the sellers receive the proceeds into their company and some of them are not keen on that compared with a share sale, as it means their tax position is sometimes worse but that is their problem not yours.
    You probably know under TUPE you keep on the staff etc.
     
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