Bulk Email Marketing

[Agri-Hire]

Just bought a list of about 4000 potential clients from within the UK.

Bought a bulk email programme to send out a template letter to all of them, just changing the name and company details, etc.

Anyway, I set it going and went for a cuppa.

Came back and it stopped sending them after about 20 emails.

Reset it and again it stopped after 20.

Is this my ISP restricting outgoing mail?

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I would hope so, as you are basically sending spam.

None of the people on the list requested information from you = SPAM

 

[webit]

Are those business or personal email addresses? (if it's business an business email address then I think it's allowed under UK law)

Your ISP may be restricting outgoing mail but I'd also look closely at emails that are no longer active and your conversion (expect 1-2% actually bother to follow the link in the email)

 

[Agri-Hire]

Hey VSHosting

How do you know that none of the people on the list have requested information?

Don't jump to conclussions!!!!

This is a genine list of businesses who have opted-in for email marketing.

They are a specific sector of industry, I am not sending spam and I don't like you saying so. Mud sticks you know! At least have the decency to ask before you start spouting off!

So back to my original question, why does the software stop after 20?

 

[webit]

Is there a log file created by the sender software?

(also read the T&C of your ISP as it might well be them.)

 

[multilingual]

Agri-Hire,

We send out a regular email to all the customers in our database.

We have to send them out 15 at a time, and then wait about 5 minutes before sending the next batch. It's a pain in the neck, but our host restricts outgoing mail volumes to combat Spam and I don't have any objections to that.

I would imagine that it is the same with you.

JB

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Hey VSHosting

How do you know that none of the people on the list have requested information?

Don't jump to conclussions!!!!

This is a genine list of businesses who have opted-in for email marketing.

They are a specific sector of industry, I am not sending spam and I don't like you saying so. Mud sticks you know! At least have the decency to ask before you start spouting off!

So back to my original question, why does the software stop after 20?

Sorry, I jumped to the conclussion that as you bought the list that none of the people on it actually requested to receive mail from you.........

Now, (spouting off again) there are a large number of definitions for SPAM, and I consider this to be SPAM, some people may not, as you did buy a mailing list, how well you checked up on the list before buying only you know at the moment. i.e. what EXACTLY did the people opt in to receive ? Did they opt in to having their addresses sold to 3rd parties ?

 

[multilingual]

If someone puts an email address on their company website under 'general enquiries', or on any other form of public domain then they are openly requesting mail from any interested parties.

Private email addresses, which are not disclosed to the general public are not to be sent mail to, that is spam without any doubt.

However, if it is spam to send a business proposal to another business then we are all in trouble.

JB

 

[webit]

I know a man ... emmm.. who may have in the past ... have sent out bulk business email using a Java client he may have written himself ... and [he] gets 100 plus at a time (though he's sure he could push it much further if he wanted to with no problems. He [if he existed] may have used NTL if there was such a company.

 

[multilingual]

Will that psoting self destruct in 5 minutes Webit?

JB

 

[webit]

What post???

To be honest - I've never had a problem with sending out mass mail - We use it to keep our membership up to date by email. Yes I wrote the mailer myself and just cap it at 100 mails at a pop so I can monitor progress.

In terms of mailing to get new business the conversion rate is so low it's not worth the effort (though I did find when we we useing custom email, that is asking people to sign up with facts and figures of the click throughs to their sites pulled from our database it did pay off)

 

[TechFox]

Is this my ISP restricting outgoing mail?

Try http://www.htmail.com/[email protected]

You can send as many emails as you like without being accused of spam.

 

[dave2005]

If someone puts an email address on their company website under 'general enquiries', or on any other form of public domain then they are openly requesting mail from any interested parties.

JB

Not so sure about that logic. Sorry. :wink:

You wouldn't phone a company's enquiry telephone line to try and sell a product - enquiry lines are for people to make enquiries (hence the name) about the company's products, and are generally staffed by sales people, not management types or decision makers. Why would email enquiry addresses be any more productive as a marketing route?

Also, as for being an 'interested party' if all you are trying to do is sell your own products, you aren't really 'interested' in the target company's products at all.

It may be legal to send spam to corporate addresses, but spam is still spam regardless of what the sender may call it or delude themselves into thinking it is. I'd have to agree with vshosting that this is definitely spamming (albeit legal)

Agri-Hire, I'd not be surprised if you find yourself sitting on one of the major DNS spam blacklists (like Spamhaus) fairly soon, it only takes a couple of complaints to get listed. That is a real bummer because a lot of firms use these DNS blacklists to automatically block IP addresses and mail domains which means that any email you send to them will bounce right back.

 

[daveashton]

I would love to know the numbers on this.

if you send an advert by email to "info@companya" what the success rate is.

Our info has Spam filters and are read by admin people.

I cannot think of a single [email protected] that has got through to me.

Agri

Right or wrong go to www.businessmailings.co.uk and use their recommended distribution product. The emails are then sent over a different ISP.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Agri-Hire, I'd not be surprised if you find yourself sitting on one of the major DNS spam blacklists (like Spamhaus) fairly soon, it only takes a couple of complaints to get listed. That is a real bummer because a lot of firms use these DNS blacklists to automatically block IP addresses and mail domains which means that any email you send to them will bounce right back.

Another thing to be careful of is using your ISP to send (refrains from using the word spam ) bulk mail, as if they receive complaints they would be fully justified to disconnect you.

 

[multilingual]

Dave,

I can agree with you up to a point, but what I was trying to highlight is the fact that if you put your email address out into the public domain then people are going to use it.

They are saying - "this is how to contact me".

If someone contacts you using a method that you have openly advertised then I can't see how it can be spam unless it is totally unrelated to their business. If you are selling Viagra, sure it is spam, but if you are putting forward a business proposal then I can't agree.

I can't really see a way round this. You either don't put your email address on a public forum, or you put a comment next to the email address saying;

"this email address is to be used for matters relating to company business, any other unsolicited enquiries will be treated as spam and you may be reported"

But that wouldn't stop Agri-Hire cos he is offering a business proposal (I hope!) :?

Its a fine line, but I wouldn't class it as spam.

Be interested to know how the legal eagles see it.

JB

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

Be interested to know how the legal eagles see it.

There are so many definistions of spam, I don't believe there is one legal opinion.
Some consider mails spam if;
They are sent to more than x amount of recipients
If the receipient did not request the information
If the mail is not personalised

The main areas of e-mail spam that make people hate it are viagra, penis enlargments, get rich quick schemes and letters from African general that want to share their millions. Fortunately we do not receive these with the junk mail through normal post which is why people are more prepared to accept junk mail via post than spam via email.

 

[multilingual]

Spam is supposed to be illegal, so there has to be a legal line somewhere.

Either it is spam or it is bulk email marketing.

If it's legal marketing then fair enough carry on, if it's spam then we should report him to the authorities.

Spam can't be an opinion. (in my opinion :wink: )

JB

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

he is the EU legislative document on spam

http://www.dti.gov.uk/industry_files/pdf/regulations_20030918.pdf

Here is the section about unsolicited mails

"Use of electronic mail for direct marketing purposes
22.—(1) This regulation applies to the transmission of unsolicited communications by means of
electronic mail to individual subscribers.
(2) Except in the circumstances referred to in paragraph (3), a person shall neither transmit, nor
instigate the transmission of, unsolicited communications for the purposes of direct marketing by
means of electronic mail unless the recipient of the electronic mail has previously notified the
sender that he consents for the time being to such communications being sent by, or at the
instigation of, the sender.
10
(3) A person may send or instigate the sending of electronic mail for the purposes of direct
marketing where—
(a) that person has obtained the contact details of the recipient of that electronic mail in the
course of the sale or negotiations for the sale of a product or service to that recipient;
(b) the direct marketing is in respect of that person’s similar products and services only; and
(c) the recipient has been given a simple means of refusing (free of charge except for the
costs of the transmission of the refusal) the use of his contact details for the purposes of
such direct marketing, at the time that the details were initially collected, and, where he
did not initially refuse the use of the details, at the time of each subsequent
communication.
(4) A subscriber shall not permit his line to be used in contravention of paragraph (2)."

 

[dave2005]

Hi Multilingual.

Like everyone else who has a business website, I have contact details (info@ brochure@ and customerservice@) on it but I wouldn't consider any of them to be an invitation for people to try to sell me anything. Since the brochure is an automated reply service, I must send my brochure out to 20 spammers a day (bet they weren't expecting a 5MB pdf file to drop into their mailbox when they tried to sell me viagra, 'cheap' - probably dodgy -software or whatever it was )

I get so much unsolicited email sent to my company now (that I usually never see anyway because I have an assistant who receives the customerservice and info addressed email) that it isn't something that bothers me.

I just think that it's almost entirely counter-productive to send marketing emails to general addresses like enquires@ or info@ because of two reasons.
1) Except in the smallest of companies, you are sending mail to a receptionist/admin/salesperson who will not have the authority and/or inclination to deal with it. Like daveashton, I'd love to see what the emails to sales ratio is on info@ addresses.
2) You could get reported to the blacklist companies which is a real pain (trust me, I know a company who are on spamhaus and lost the ability to reply to genuine sales enquiries sent to them by potential customers)

Let's be honest with ourselves here and admit that if you send out unsolicited bulk emails to people (business or residential), it's fair to call it spam. The only difference is that it's currently illegal to send it to personal addresses and currently legal to business ones. I also believe that it is now illegal to send unsolicited emails that offer personal - i.e. non-business related - services to business addresses (e.g. you couldn't offer half price cinema tickets, cheap alcohol, or free membership of a snooker club)

I send out 'mailshots' now and again to potential business customers, and I have no problems in admitting that many people would class it as junk mail. If I was asked do I ever send out junk mail, what would I say? The honest answer would have to be yes, although I could try to justify it as 'marketing information' or 'business proposals.'

Since neither junk mail or spam are defined legal terms, if someone thinks my mailshot is junk mail, then it is junk mail, if someone thinks an unsolicited email is spam, then it is spam.

 

[Agri-Hire]

AHA!

(3) A person may send or instigate the sending of electronic mail for the purposes of direct
marketing where—
(b) the direct marketing is in respect of that person’s similar products and services only

I am sending a business proposal to another business working in the same sector.

Not spam. QED

:lol:

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

I love it when people only read the part they want to, what about the "AND" bit ?

"; and
(c) the recipient has been given a simple means of refusing (free of charge except for the
costs of the transmission of the refusal) the use of his contact details for the purposes of
such direct marketing, at the time that the details were initially collected, and, where he
did not initially refuse the use of the details, at the time of each subsequent
communication"

Are you 100% certain that every time someone else that has bought names from the same supplier that are on your list and they sent mails to these recipients that the recipients were given an option to opt out by the sender and any that did opt-out are not on your list ?

For this to work you would have to rely on senders of mail to report opt-outs to the supplier of the list and for the supplier of the list to forward these to their clients and then for the clients to remove them from their list.
As you have just bought a list I seriously doubt this is actually happening........ Would be more than happy to be proven wrong though

 

[Agri-Hire]

I would be more than happy to prove you wrong my friend....but I can't.

:wink:

When buying a list such as this it is impossible to know the history so I cannot say for sure if any of them received opt outs.

However, how do the recipients know that I am writing from a list?

I could have got their details from their website.

I can add a simple line at the bottom saying 'if you receive this message and you think it is spam then please write to vshosting so that he can have a laugh' would that make you feel better?

 

[Top Hat]

Sorry but I would consider it as Spam.

Many legit businesses have been caught out buying opt in mailing list only to find they have been harvested.

My advice would be, if you must mail it, mail it a bit at a time so you can gauge just how much harm you are doing to your reputation, and if its worth the business that it generates.

 

[multilingual]

We get letters and emails all the time from freelance translators looking for work.

I may be in the minority but I wouldn't call that spam.

JB

 

[daveashton]

A more simple point is why? Does sending say 100 emails to info@companyx get better results than telemarketing/ PPC online PR etc.

 

[Cornish Steve]

I must send my brochure out to 20 spammers a day (bet they weren't expecting a 5MB pdf file to drop into their mailbox when they tried to sell me viagra, 'cheap' - probably dodgy -software or whatever it was

Thanks for the idea. I have looking for an effective way to dissuade spammers from sending messages to my business addresses. This completes my three-point strategy:

1) For junk phone calls: Ask for the person's name and company name first; then, tell the caller that my numbers have been on the national "do not call" register for over 12 months; finally, politely remind them that if I receive another call, both their name and the company's name will be included in an official complaint to the regulatory body.

2) For junk snail mail: If one of the daily offers includes a post-paid reply envelope, stuff it with junk from other mail offers and send it back.

3) For junk email: Create a large PowerPoint file which consists of nothing but page and page containing the following message: "You will receive this email message and attachment every 30 minutes if I receive any further spam from your company." Send the message every 30 minutes for the 24-hour period following receipt of junk mail.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

the main problem with that is alot of spam is sent from forged or free mail accounts, they don't care if you reply or not as they won't get the mail, they just want you to visit the site and buy.

 

[daveashton]

Goldsteve

I am surprised you have the time to take these actions.

I also question what you are missing. We had a cold call on Monday that showed me a new lead generation method that is core to our business. If we block everything how do these people get in contact?

For us the world changes and people have better ways of doing things ( I think its called progress) and not having the time to check every new company out means if they do not make the first move and contact us we would lose out.

So to all UKBF members. If you can help us save money or make more money, please get in ouch

 

[Cornish Steve]

Goldsteve, I am surprised you have the time to take these actions.

It takes a few seconds to stuff an envelope with junk mail and send it off. If I answer the phone to an unwanted call, I might as well invest a few seconds to ensure it's not repeated. As for email, maybe it would take too much time to respond.

I also question what you are missing.

As a matter of principle, I never respond to cold calls. I refuse charity requests made that way, and I refuse all offers. If I need something, I prefer to research it properly and not respond to a chance event. I'm sure I miss some opportunities, but so be it.

 

[dagr]

Outside of the legal context, the term "spam" has a wide meaning and is quite subjective. For some, it's any unsolicited email (even if the sender only sent out one single email per year), for others it's only something that annoys them (VIAGRA, etc). Ultimately, it's up to the people receiving the email to decide whether it's spam, an irrevelent email or an interesting lead to follow up on. As someone suggested above, maybe try a small number at first and follow a few up to see how it's received. I agree with Dave2005 above: "SPAM is in the eye of the beholder" (lol).

I suppose it depends on your customers' profiles as to the efficacy of the mass email approach. I read somewhere that because of the low cost in sending mass emails, true spammers (high bulk x high irrelevence) are "in profit" for a return rate of in excess of 1 in a 100,000; that is, it doesn't matter if over 99,999 people get annoyed or offended by your email as long as someone ends up buying it.

Personally, I'm skeptical about direct selling via email, specially when it involves a targeted professional group. Typically, numbers are low enough to justify the cost of postal mail. For example, in low-end medical equipment sales where you are talking of a sale being between £3K-£10K, mailshots like this (with a repsonse-coupon requesting more info or a meeting), you are looking for a return of between 5 to 10 in a 1000. Anything above this 1% is considered "good". I forget what the expected conversion factor (response-to-sale) is.

I have no idea of expected returns via email.

David.

 

[multilingual]

The easiest way to stop junk snail mail is to write "not known at this address, return to sender" on the front.

They have to pay for the mail to be returned which soon stops them sending it out. It is surprising how many of these mails come from the same distribution companies.

Also, with regards to SPAM, I switched off my computer last night at 1.00am and the junk in-box was empty.

At 08:15 this morning it had 317 messages in it!!!

I am receiving one every two minutes today. No idea what is going on!

:x

JB

ps. Maybe they are all from agri-hire?

 

[clairemackaness]

I can agree with you up to a point, but what I was trying to highlight is the fact that if you put your email address out into the public domain then people are going to use it.

They are saying - "this is how to contact me".

My website has this feature, but every day I receive e-mails offering me web hosting, business cards, marketing material etc. I dont appreciate it and class it as spam. If I wanted it then my link would say CONTACT ME AND SEND ME INFO ON YOUR PRODUCTS TOO an enquiry e-mail address is for enquiries.

Saying all this though, business is business and as much as I personally hate it, I often send e-mails via websites trying to sell my wares LOL!!!

 

[Magsite]

I always try to use word filters however I've noticed the last set of 'viagra and penis enlargers' were made up of tables with each character in a table. It looked pretty horrific however it still got through.

I use windows outlook and set an action every email I get that I dont want. It suprising when I empty my spam folder I have to delete about 1000 emails.

Most legal UK affiliate companies have a tough spam policy and so they should. Shame about other countries

 

[multilingual]

General view here seems to be that we all hate receiving such mails, yet we are all guilty of sending stuff out from time to time.

Furthermore, when we receive it we call it spam, but when we send it out we call it email marketing.

My personal view is that this is part of business and there is no point getting worked up about it. Only when it is totally unrelated to our business (ie viagra) should we be annoyed.

If someone finds my email address and writes me a personal letter outlining their goods or services then I find that quite acceptable.

JB

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If someone finds my email address and writes me a personal letter outlining their goods or services then I find that quite acceptable.

Me, too.

If someone thinks they can help me, or add value for me, then I've no problem with them contacting me by email.

However, there's a big difference between someone who's given a few seconds of thought and decided I might be interested and someone who's paid for a big DB of email addresses and hits the whole list in the hope of getting 0.01% response.

Steve

 

[Top Hat]

I hate spam, it costs the recipient not the spammer, either in a few seconds of there time or spam killing software.

Multiply that up by the millions that spammers send and you get a whole lot of wasted time and money.

Because of spammers email is less reliable today than a few years ago, more of the email I send gets ignored by customer or goes straight into the spam bin.


Getting back to the original point it all boils down too:

Will the benefit in extra customers be more than the damage to your reputation?

All the, is it legal?, is it spam? talk is irrelevant.

The question should be will these potential customers think its spam, and therefore think your scum.

 

[multilingual]

I am not directing this at you Top Hat, but there is a certain paradox with anyone who gets dragged into to calling someone who sends spam 'scum'.

If you throw an insult at someone then it demonstrates that you take the spam very personally, which is rather ironic being as the spammer has sent the same letter to thousands of people he doesn't even know, making it one of the least personal things anyone can do.

Personally, I don't have the time to let myself get caught up in the 'You're scum!' act.

If it's interesting I read it, if it's junk I bin it and then get on with my work.

End of story.

Why allow yourself to be upset by it? It's just a waste of energy.

JB

 

[Rob Holmes]

Why allow yourself to be upset by it? It's just a waste of energy.

JB

Interestingly enough I got upset at a spam mail for the first time in a long time today.. It said..

"Hi ,

I hope you're well and business is good. This is my normal 'keeping in touch' email as I wanted to contact you to see if you have any recruitment issues I can assist with.

Please let me know if you have any IT Technical, Managerial or Sales vacancies and I'll get in touch to discuss them in greater detail.

If you're no longer responsible for recruitment please let me know who I should be contacting.

Regards

David
<edit> Recruitment
0121 616 <edit>"

I've NEVER heard of 'David' NEVER used a recruitment agency and frankly really resented the way he tried to spoof me that it was regular contact.

Anyway - he got a phone call and my email address was removed while I was on the phone. Amazing what threatening to call someones datacentre and report them for spamming will do (which I would do)

rant over.

Score 1 - 0 to me :lol:

Rob

 

[Top Hat]

Why allow yourself to be upset by it? It's just a waste of energy.

I don't get upset by individual pieces of spam (well not very often)

It’s the shear volume of spam.

And spam (along with viruses, scumware, malware, adware) directly affect my business, so it does annoy/upset me