Brexit negotiations

[MBE2017]

This is the same portion of the population with the £500 plus smartphone and the top ups being done every few days?

I expect a few do fall into that stereotype, but most could not afford such phones. The few that do simply prove they are as stupid as the richer people who also fall for the constant phone upgrade scam they have been sold.

Schools might say they teach and educate but there is little evidence to show they help with financial lessons, the whole economy is based on permanent ever increasing consumption and debt.

 

[Cobby]

You should believe it though, because he’s telling the truth. He means it.

The evidence suggest otherwise, sorry, and he's way past the line of credibility of simply taking him at his word.

I was going to vote leave, but in the end I asked my kids (15 & 17 at the time) what they’d suggest - remain. So that’s what I did.

Now we all know ‘so much more’ I’d absolutely vote leave! Because the ‘so much more’ is just an increase in the frequency and intensity of the same complete tosh that they’ve trotted out in a desperate attempt to stop what we’re doing.

So what was it that drove your Remain vote that has changed it to a Leave vote?
I mean, you're already looking at the endless ream of observable evidence and expert testimony of the harm Brexit will cause the UK, and framing it as "stopping what we're trying to do" so this may not elicit a convincing response, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Cobby]

Is it really a lowering of standards to recognise different standards? Isn't that what mutual recognition means?

For instance the infamous chlorine-washed chicken? Americans are not dropping like flies from eating it, so why should we? The US sees it as a public health no brainer, and interestingly so does the EU, but only for fruit and vegetables.

If there is concern, then why not just insist on clear labelling and let consumers make their choice.

The rate of food poisoning in the US is around 14.7% annually. Compared to 1.5% in the UK.
Please consider the evidence before heading to "different doesn't necessarily mean worse!".

As for going with "consumer choice", that free-market nonsense relies on not having people in food poverty, and in the UK it is increasing (as a direct result of Conservative government policy). Regulation is often one of the last barriers keeping a lot of people alive.

You forget the huge proportion of the population who have little choice but to buy cheap meat, £1 meals from Iceland etc due to their low income.

This is the same portion of the population with the £500 plus smartphone and the top ups being done every few days?

No it's not.
Please keep your offensive stereotypes of poor people to yourself. At best they just make you look uninformed, at worst they are directly harmful. Knock it off.

 

[Cobby]

You forget the huge proportion of the population who have little choice but to buy cheap meat, £1 meals from Iceland etc due to their low income. The same sector which also supported Brexit to try and improve their lot.

People who have very little or have near nothing don’t fear losing a little bit more, their eyes are on improving their lives, they probably enjoy finer cuts of meat and more expensive wines as well.

Yet all the evidence shows that Brexit will make their lives considerably worse and you are still in favour of it. It's not a good look to White Knight for a group while supporting the policy that will cause them most harm.

As for your claim of them being "the sector that supported Brexit", the evidence (as usual) disagrees:
Brexit was not the voice of the working class nor of the uneducated – it was of the squeezed middle
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/

 

[Mr D]

I expect a few do fall into that stereotype, but most could not afford such phones. The few that do simply prove they are as stupid as the richer people who also fall for the constant phone upgrade scam they have been sold.

Schools might say they teach and educate but there is little evidence to show they help with financial lessons, the whole economy is based on permanent ever increasing consumption and debt.

Affordability appears to be down to the individual. Have met more than one person being evicted for non payment of rent who owns a £500 plus mobile phone.


The economy based on ever increasing consumption and debt appears to be what people want. Or they wouldn't take on the debt. As business owners some of us prefer people being able to buy things one way or another so we don't get a say in how they do it.

 

[Cobby]

The economy based on ever increasing consumption and debt appears to be what people want. Or they wouldn't take on the debt.

"Why would anybody take on debt unless they wanted it?" scoffed the man in the top hat, rolling in piles of money, "and by jove if that debt needs paying they can just dip into their trust funds!"

'People only have debt because they want it' is a pretty 20th century display of privilege.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The rate of food poisoning in the US is around 14.7% annually. Compared to 1.5% in the UK.
Please consider the evidence before heading to "different doesn't necessarily mean worse!".

And that doesn't take into account the different ways we cook chicken. Far more of US chicken consumption is deep fried which kills salmonella. If a smaller proportion of oven cooked chicken produces that amount of difference the figures are even more dramatic.

 

[Newchodge]

There was a BBC Reality Check article on this a couple of days ago - can't find it now. It said the scientific evidence that chlorine washing removes salmonella bacteria effectively is not clear and quoted the rates of campylobacter and salmonella contamination, cases and deaths here and in the US. The US rates were far higher.

Found it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47440562

 

[KM-Tiger]

Far more of US chicken consumption is deep fried which kills salmonella.

Are you saying that oven cooking to the correct temperature does not kill salmonella?

 

[Newchodge]

Are you saying that oven cooking to the correct temperature does not kill salmonella?

Well, if it does, why bother with the chlorine wash?

 

[Mr D]

There was a BBC Reality Check article on this a couple of days ago - can't find it now. It said there is no scientific evidence that chlorine washing removes salmonella bacteria effectively and quoted the rates of salmonella contamination, cases and deaths here and in the US. The US rates were far higher.

As I recall that article also suggested that for one measure the two countries weren't comparing like for like so could not directly compare.
Add in that not all people will go to doctors about something minor like salmonella (I hear some people can get an appointment in a week).

 

[Mr D]

Are you saying that oven cooking to the correct temperature does not kill salmonella?

Does everyone use the correct temperature?
Slow cooker, oven, pressure cooker, fryer, cook in the bag, roast, casserole, steamer etc.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Are you saying that oven cooking to the correct temperature does not kill salmonella?

What is the "correct" temperature?

We haven't even got onto the subject of washed eggs yet...........

 

[Cobby]

Are you saying that oven cooking to the correct temperature does not kill salmonella?

In this instance you are legislating for the lowest common denominator of food hygiene knowledge, which includes folks who wash/rinse raw chicken under a running tap before cooking it, which does nothing but spread bacteria around the kitchen. There are also some bacteria types which form spores that will protect them from cooking/drying (this is GCSE level stuff).

The evidence shows our food safety laws (many from the EU), from farm to table, have a demonstrable benefit to public health. Lowering these standards will benefit only corporate profits.

 

[KM-Tiger]

What is the "correct" temperature?

We haven't even got onto the subject of washed eggs yet...........

Correct temperature is when no more pink, juices run clear. Don't know what that is in degrees.

Funny you should mention washed eggs, as my wife absolutely insists on washing eggs before using them.

 

[Cobby]

Correct temperature is when no more pink, juices run clear. Don't know what that is in degrees.

Common misconception. Depending on several factors, juices (and meat) can still contain visible myoglobin (pink) when cooked properly, or they can run clear while still being undercooked.

Oddly, even the government advice mentions juices running clear, but the only properly safe method is to get the food to 70°C for 2 minutes or 75°C for 30 seconds. i.e. You need a food thermometer.

Funny you should mention washed eggs, as my wife absolutely insists on washing eggs before using them.

If there's anything on the eggs she's spreading it around the kitchen. A proper hand-washing routine is a much better and more hygienic approach.

So you see, even you and your family are protected by our current food safety regulations. Drop those and it leans much more towards survival of the fittest.

 

[Mr D]

"Why would anybody take on debt unless they wanted it?" scoffed the man in the top hat, rolling in piles of money, "and by jove if that debt needs paying they can just dip into their trust funds!"

'People only have debt because they want it' is a pretty 20th century display of privilege.

I'm sorry you get forced into having debt at gunpoint.
For the rest of us inhabiting the normal reality it requires a choice. Some company offers us credit then requires us to accept in some way.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Correct temperature is when no more pink, juices run clear. Don't know what that is in degrees.

Funny you should mention washed eggs, as my wife absolutely insists on washing eggs before using them.

But that means that folds of skin could still harbour salmonella.

Americans wash eggs at the packing station which weakens the dirt protective barrier of the shell. That is why they sell their eggs from chillers and keep them in the fridge.

Most of the rest of the world rub the eggs clean and keep them in a cool dry place out of the fridge which is much safer.

 

[Cobby]

I'm sorry you get forced into having debt at gunpoint.
For the rest of us inhabiting the normal reality it requires a choice. Some company offers us credit then requires us to accept in some way.

Thank you for letting us all know you have never been poor or had money concerns. Or perhaps you have and just argue this point to add noise to the debate because that's your job? Who knows?

Meanwhile in real life, lots of people take on debts where they would rather not. Your straw-man argument about them doing so at gunpoint is just more white-noise posting. Please stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Mr D]

In this instance you are legislating for the lowest common denominator of food hygiene knowledge, which includes folks who wash/rinse raw chicken under a running tap before cooking it, which does nothing but spread bacteria around the kitchen. There are also some bacteria types which form spores that will protect them from cooking/drying (this is GCSE level stuff).

The evidence shows our food safety laws (many from the EU), from farm to table, have a demonstrable benefit to public health. Lowering these standards will benefit only corporate profits.

And yet, much to your annoyance, plenty of people did vote to leave the EU. Perhaps they were thinking of having different rules regarding food safety. Better or worse rules we cannot know.

 

[Mr D]

Thank you for letting us all know you have never been poor or had money concerns. Or perhaps you have and just argue this point to add noise to the debate because that's your job? Who knows?

Meanwhile in real life, lots of people take on debts where they would rather not. Your straw-man argument about them doing so at gunpoint is just more white-noise posting. Please stick to the topic at hand.

Never suggested I had never been poor or had money concerns. Wasn't even mentioned, except in your own mind.
I did point out that you were wrong regarding credit.

Yes yes we know in your world the debt is forced on people.
Here in reality shared by the people in this country we don't have forced debt. We have debt people choose to take on.
I know that isn't what you want but its not your decision. You really should work on allowing others to make their own decisions.

 

[Cobby]

Never suggested I had never been poor or had money concerns. Wasn't even mentioned, except in your own mind.

It's called privilege. People (such as yourself) who have never experienced being poor do not understand the pressures put upon them, including the need to take on debt in dire circumstances, such as the need to feed either one's self or their family, or for the elderly to pay for heating throughout winter. They simply cannot understand the choices you have to make when you have literally nothing and just assume they make decisions within the same realm of comfort of their own privilege.

People with privilege like yours are calling for and driving Brexit, regardless of the harm it will do to those with less privilege. And no amount of trolling other posters will change that, so please just give it a rest, stick to the topic and quit the white noise.

 

[Mr D]

It's called privilege. People (such as yourself) who have never experienced being poor do not understand the pressures put upon them, including the need to take on debt in dire circumstances, such as the need to feed either one's self or their family, or for the elderly to pay for heating throughout winter. They simply cannot understand the choices you have to make when you have literally nothing and just assume they make decisions within the same realm of comfort of their own privilege.

People with privilege like yours are calling for and driving Brexit, regardless of the harm it will do to those with less privilege. And no amount of trolling other posters will change that, so please just give it a rest, stick to the topic and quit the white noise.

ROTFLOL!!!

Your posts are amusing. They also show up your thinking.
Now here in the real world you can look around and find people who have to choose to take out credit. Who have to agree, who have to in some cases sign paperwork or tick boxes.

Now in your world the credit may be forced on people. Here in Britain the credit is available to many people, even with poor credit history. But they have to do something to get it - the money isn't simply transferred unwanted to their bank.

Nothing at all to do with privilege or what my experience has been.

 

[MBE2017]

Very rare that I find myself agreeing with anything Cosby posts, but there are thousands of people who take on debt in the UK just to eat, pay rent etc. Many will say they could choose not to go into debt, manywill understand most have no choice.

I was talking to a banker in London at a house warming and a similar subject began to be discussed. He was very offended when I stated anyone in the room would become a thief within three days once they became hungry enough. Many people have no savings, few friends, and no options when the decision has to be made.

The rise in food banks shows how tough it is for many people.

 

[MBE2017]

Very rare that I find myself agreeing with anything Cosby posts, but there are thousands of people who take on debt in the UK just to eat, pay rent etc. Many will say they could choose not to go into debt, manywill understand most have no choice.

I was talking to a banker in London at a house warming and a similar subject began to be discussed. He was very offended when I stated anyone in the room would become a thief within three days once they became hungry enough. Many people have no savings, few friends, a no options when the decision has to be made.

The rise in food banks shows how tough it is for many people.

Yet all the evidence shows that Brexit will make their lives considerably worse and you are still in favour of it. It's not a good look to White Knight for a group while supporting the policy that will cause them most harm.

In your opinion, but you forget, the referendum asked each person entitled to vote what THEY wanted, not what they felt best for one sector of the population. Your posts totally dismissing other people’s opinions shows you, like many in the political elite have little idea of what people want. I put much less faith in your experts, opinion polls etc, preferring to listen to people to see what the real situation is, maybe you should try it sometime. No one is always correct, but even a broken clock is right twice every day.

I understand your viewpoint and accept you have a right to express it, it is a shame you have no regard for others viewpoints.

 

[Cobby]

Your posts totally dismissing other people’s opinions shows you, like many in the political elite have little idea of what people want.

Offering evidence and rational observation isn't "dismissing" opinion, it's simply highlighting the poor information those opinions are based upon. It's interesting that you go on to imply that *I* am both "political elite" - which is laughable - and say that I "have no idea what people want" - something I've never claimed. The other implication here is that you know what people want - the whole of the current Brexit movement is predicated upon it after all.

Here's the part of the thread where I explain the only 'proof' we have of what people want is a very narrow result of an advisory referendum, but that there is evidence that the "mandate" claimed by Brexiteers and other right wing extremists is extremely tenuous. So far there's been no rational rebuttal to this, just a lot of "will of the people", "remoaners are out of touch", etc.

It's also worth remembering that the result was obtained via corruption and illegal activity - proved to a criminal standard - and had the referendum been legally binding the result would have been found to be unsafe and the result declared void. Remember that when talking about the "mandate" you think you have for Brexit.

To be clear, none of this is just dismissing your opinion, it's looking at the evidence. It's easy to consider it the former because, mostly, Brexiter opinion isn't supported by the latter.

I put much less faith in your experts, opinion polls etc, preferring to listen to people to see what the real situation is, maybe you should try it sometime. No one is always correct, but even a broken clock is right twice every day.

So you prefer anecdote over data? That's fine. It is absolutely your right to form your opinion as such, but that right doesn't extend to not having that opinion questioned or dismantled.

In the meantime, concentrate your arguments on the topic rather than where you think people are from or who you think they speak to.

 

[Cobby]

2016:

2019:

 

[simon field]

The evidence suggest otherwise, sorry, and he's way past the line of credibility of simply taking him at his word.


So what was it that drove your Remain vote that has changed it to a Leave vote?
I mean, you're already looking at the endless ream of observable evidence and expert testimony of the harm Brexit will cause the UK, and framing it as "stopping what we're trying to do" so this may not elicit a convincing response, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

A large part of why I'd now vote leave is precisely because of the sort of Piers Morgan-stylee sensationalism of posts like that one! ∆∆∆

quoting politicians? what on earth makes you think anybody really takes anything they say without general mocking derision coupled with a generous dollop of deep mistrust?

Or has done, for years in fact!

I mean, come on, hadn't you noticed?

I originally voted remain after being on the fence but subsequently asking my kids what they thought was best, so went with that. They now couldn't give a toss!

I've been playing my eldest lad a bit of 'music for the jilted generation' , awesome!

 

[simon field]

duplicate.

but while I'm here, I'm interested to know how you can have evidence of something that may, or may not happen in say 5, 10, 20, 50 years, when, for others it's a guess?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47487320

We've gone from "no deal is better than a bad deal" to "if MPs don't vote for my deal, Brexit might not happen at all".

And she wonders why her strategic master plan doesn't seem to be working.

I believe we're edging closer to a second referendum. Some might say it appears unlikely, but if May's deal isn't accepted, and we rule out no deal, and a customs union is too unpalatable due to a lack of having a say, I'm struggling to see what the alternative is.

 

[KM-Tiger]

and we rule out no deal,

Who is the 'we' ruling out no deal?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Who is the 'we' ruling out no deal?

Our MPs. Of course this assumes that the commons will reject May's deal again next week (I'd give that a 75% chance), and then votes to reject leaving without a deal (around a 90% chance).

 

[Mr D]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47487320

We've gone from "no deal is better than a bad deal" to "if MPs don't vote for my deal, Brexit might not happen at all".

And she wonders why her strategic master plan doesn't seem to be working.

I believe we're edging closer to a second referendum. Some might say it appears unlikely, but if May's deal isn't accepted, and we rule out no deal, and a customs union is too unpalatable due to a lack of having a say, I'm struggling to see what the alternative is.

So if we have a 2nd referendum in say October - when should we get the 3rd one done?

 

[Cobby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47487320

We've gone from "no deal is better than a bad deal" to "if MPs don't vote for my deal, Brexit might not happen at all".

And she wonders why her strategic master plan doesn't seem to be working.

I believe we're edging closer to a second referendum. Some might say it appears unlikely, but if May's deal isn't accepted, and we rule out no deal, and a customs union is too unpalatable due to a lack of having a say, I'm struggling to see what the alternative is.

I think you're right, but it's pretty worrisome to see stuff like this clouding things:
Labour warned against ‘betraying’ members as party admits it may not back fresh Brexit referendum
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-deal-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-a8813041.html

 

[Mr D]

Our MPs. Of course this assumes that the commons will reject May's deal again next week (I'd give that a 75% chance), and then votes to reject leaving without a deal (around a 90% chance).

Which would indeed be interesting - we don't do the deal and we won't leave with no deal.
While leaving in 3 weeks.

 

[Cobby]

A large part of why I'd now vote leave is precisely because of the sort of Piers Morgan-stylee sensationalism of posts like that one! ∆∆∆

quoting politicians? what on earth makes you think anybody really takes anything they say without general mocking derision coupled with a generous dollop of deep mistrust?

Much of the populace take politicians at their word, especially when they are the ministers in charge of those projects and supposedly in possession of appropriate expertise. You may not, but many, if not most, do; even if it is with a grain of salt.

So if you never listen to politicians that represent you, and you don't care about the available evidence, what were/are you using to make your decisions? Just your dislike of reporting that you find "sensational"?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I think you're right, but it's pretty worrisome to see stuff like this clouding things:
Labour warned against ‘betraying’ members as party admits it may not back fresh Brexit referendum
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-deal-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-a8813041.html

Indeed. I spotted that earlier. But for whatever various groups are saying, the reality of the situation doesn't change.

If May's deal and no-deal are rejected, and the customs union is rejected, and so is everything else due to a lack of a majority, we'll reach a deadlock. And if MPs can't come to a decision, someone else has to.

Now you would think that Corbyn's plan for a closer relationship (i.e. a customs union) has potential. But he's added the caveat that we must have a say in all the EU's future trade agreement negotiations. I can't see the EU allowing that, and if they don't, I can't see MPs backing it either.

But a second referendum, if it were to happen, needs at least two options, so we need to consider what those options might be. One could be May's deal, and while the other could be a customs union, the fact we may have to stay aligned with the EU and accept its trade deals without any say in them could push MPs to exclude that option. If that's the case, what else is there?

If there is a worry in this, it's the possibility of a deadlock within a deadlock, where MPs can't decide on Brexit themselves, but can't decide on the referendum choices either.

What we must keep in mind though is that for many Brexiteers in parliament, it's not a case of leaving the EU at any cost. There could certainly be a situation where staying in the EU, at least for now, is the lesser of the available evils.

 

[KM-Tiger]

What we must keep in mind though is that for many Brexiteers in parliament, it's not a case of leaving the EU at any cost. There could certainly be a situation where staying in the EU, at least for now, is the lesser of the available evils.

Yes, I still think that is true, and remain may be what we have to do, perhaps by means of a 2 year extension to Art 50.

I am still in favour of no deal in principle, but we would need a PM and govt with qualities of leadership, inspiration, and vision. And an opposition with similar qualities to keep the govt on its toes. Sadly all of those qualities are totally absent in both govt and opposition.

 

[Mr D]

Indeed. I spotted that earlier. But for whatever various groups are saying, the reality of the situation doesn't change.

If May's deal and no-deal are rejected, and the customs union is rejected, and so is everything else due to a lack of a majority, we'll reach a deadlock. And if MPs can't come to a decision, someone else has to.

Now you would think that Corbyn's plan for a closer relationship (i.e. a customs union) has potential. But he's added the caveat that we must have a say in all the EU's future trade agreement negotiations. I can't see the EU allowing that, and if they don't, I can't see MPs backing it either.

But a second referendum, if it were to happen, needs at least two options, so we need to consider what those options might be. One could be May's deal, and while the other could be a customs union, the fact we may have to stay aligned with the EU and accept its trade deals without any say in them could push MPs to exclude that option. If that's the case, what else is there?

If there is a worry in this, it's the possibility of a deadlock within a deadlock, where MPs can't decide on Brexit themselves, but can't decide on the referendum choices either.

What we must keep in mind though is that for many Brexiteers in parliament, it's not a case of leaving the EU at any cost. There could certainly be a situation where staying in the EU, at least for now, is the lesser of the available evils.

If a 2nd referendum has more than 2 options it risks splitting the vote. Every additional choice above 1 splits the vote but we can probably agree its pointless doing a referendum with just one option to vote for.

 

[Mr D]

Yes, I still think that is true, and remain may be what we have to do, perhaps by means of a 2 year extension to Art 50.

I am still in favour of no deal in principle, but we would need a PM and govt with qualities of leadership, inspiration, and vision. And an opposition with similar qualities to keep the govt on its toes. Sadly all of those qualities are totally absent in both govt and opposition.

Sadly the voters didn't choose a government with qualities of leadership, inspiration and vision. They don't normally get to choose the PM, that's for the party to do. By whatever means the party uses.

I'm not betting that the next general election (this year or 2022) will give us any better MPs.