BNI - Yucks, why does *anybody* use networking groups like this?

[Clinton]

Recommendations? Hmm. Every month I drive at least a few hundred thousands pounds worth of business to corporate finance firms, corporate lawyers, R&D tax credit advisers and others. I recommend people because I know of their expertise or trust that they will deliver a good service. I am cautious about who I recommend because my own reputation would get affected if I recommend the bad guys.

But not so with BNI type groups.

For those who don't know BNI - it's an organisation with lots of networking groups. Each local group takes only one member from each profession. You pay a fee, attend the weekly meeting and everybody is required to generate business for the others in the group.

So far, so good. But it's the last bit I have a problem with. You have to generate business for others in the group. In other words, you may not know these people and they may be absolutely crap at their job but you have to keep an eye out - among your family, friends, colleagues, other contacts - for opportunities to recommend them. There is a lot of pressure to generate leads for others in the group and there are targets to be met.

And you are recommending them because they attend the same group as you, not because you believe in their competence.

And people actually do this! They sign up for BNI, attend the meetings and go around recommending their fellow members and driving business to them. They even get quite evangelical about BNI!

So, basically, in exchange for getting a few leads yourself you are compromising your integrity and recommending people whose service you have never used and who you don't know from Adam (no, sitting in a meeting with them once a week doesn't mean you know them!)

I'm curious, why do people do this? Do you not see this as a bit dodgy? Why should I trust any member of a group like this if they're willing to sell their friends and family in exchange for getting leads for their own business?

 

[estwig]

BNI has always liked a pile of sh*t to me, my work filters down from me, builders, surveyors, kitchen guys, windows, etc, etc, all get work from me. If I joined one of these networks I wouldn't see any work from it and I'm not giving my leads to a load of people I don't know, and who aren't going to pay me for them. Sod that!

I can almost see how BNI could work for a room full of numpties, who all can't generate any business of their own and have similar or related order values.

I design a loft conversion for £1.5k, that lead has a value to me, that lead is worth £50k to a builder. Why would I give my £50k lead away in the hope of getting a 1.5k lead back. BNI seems like some kind of pyramid scheme for the gullible.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Not my cup of teA, however in their defence I do know business owners who have built good businesses on the back of them

Some groups interpret the rules more intelligently than others.

The real business isn’t passed over the table - that’s just crappy stats - it’s done outside the room when relationships have been built.

Like you, I only pass business to people I trust, wherever I met them

 

[mhall]

The BNI isn't a networking organisation. It is a business that generates income by selling a product that is actually quite ethereal. This is the best type of business- selling something that has cost you nothing and doesn't actually exist. Personally I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole but you have to admire the business model - Charge people to talk to each other- whether they succeed or not, you still get your cut.

 

[The Byre]

Sounds like the Freemasons for the gullible and the intellectually challenged!

"Ooo! I'm networking!"

Get a grip!

 

[godoit]

I went to a few of these when o got a bit lonely with only the staff to chat to.
BNI seemed to only worked for trades and like everyone says why would you give leads to people you don't know. The people I met that I stayed in contact with went to the introduction meetings and like me decided it's not for them.
I see the allure of networking clubs for those that don't need to network for business but want a business minded community but I have yet to find one that isn't about selling your stuff.

 

[Agarwood]

I joined my local group which was walking distance for me a couple of years back for 2 years.

In the past I've done every type of networking from theses groups to active business devlopment dos drinks meals etc.

By far compared to others networking groups BNI is a good investment.

I think if your a new business in the trades it's an inexpensive way to pick up work and contacts.

I also think it can teach you how to maximise your own opportunities.

For others I think you have to try it.

The marketing element for your business can boost your confidence no end.

If theres a bni group and your an accountant it's an good investment to pick up clients.

If your a printer there's only so many business cards you can print.

For me it allowed me to connect with a local community that otherwise I wouldn't have met.

The problems as others have alluded to is that there's quite a bit of double dealing and unofficial chairs.

And you will get some crappy leads from people trying to save face in a meeting.

I totally get the reticance of trust element of referral as well and being effectively tied but actually it doesn't happen unless you want it to.

My "chair" was commercial finance which I thought was fairly straightforward.

My close referrers should have been

The accountant but they had their own in house team.

The financial advisor but his brother worked for a large independent commercial broker.

The Solicitor was more involved with personal work.

At a push the mortgage advisor who referred commercial work into their network.

And the banks had all but dissapeared.

That all said I only needed a handful of leads to cover my financial costs and it definatly wiped it's face.

The reasons behind leaving was a combination of the constant demand to go to upsold training, the political aspects to the management of the group particularly when booting people out, but mostly time wise it was costing me a day a week and it that sense financially it didn't stack.

I've kept in touch with a number of members
And 2 years on I make as much from it now as I did without attending with the couple of good leads I'll get.




.

I dont like the training element.

 

[Clinton]

Upsold Training? Yikes! What on earth...? They want you to go for training to learn how to better con your family and friends?

 

[SpikeFMT]

I was a member about 8 years ago but could never feel at ease when at the meetings, as others have said it was all about giving leads to others rather than getting serious business information and advice from each other which was what I was led to believe it would be. Some of the guys there were really greasy, a printer who was the chairman and seemed to get everyone to feel they had to use him for all there printing stuff, a financial advisor who made a point of telling you how much he was making and a will writer who was just an absolute c**k, and I was not comfortable to pass anyone I knew to them.
The regional area guy, I won't give his name, came in one week and started berating some of the people in the group about their lack of referals and that was enough for me I left and never went back I have also disuaded others from joining if the subject has come up. Save your time and money
And anyway who wants to eat a full english breakfast at 6.30 am

 

[Phil Elvin]

I think it can depend on the 'chapter' and the quality of the other members. I went along to one as a guest a few years back and it seemed a little desperate. I came away feeling quite sorry for some of them.

I don't think it's for me. I believe I could take a lot from it but when it comes to the giving back I already have my own network that I have built up over the years, as many self-employed people will have, and I wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardise these relationships. These are people I trust and am happy to refer people to, safe in the knowledge they will be looked after.

As the OP said, you're not going to have the same confidence in a room full of relative strangers.

All that said, the company that handles our SEO swears by it and says they get a lot of business from it. His chapter does meet in a large pub in Manchester city centre on an afternoon though so I may be tempted to head down as a guest at some point even if it's just for a few cheeky halves!

 

[Clinton]

All that said, the company that handles our SEO swears by it and says they get a lot of business from it.

It's quite possible he gets a lot of business from it, that's not the point.

The point is how far you'd go to sell your grandmother. And what's the lowest price you'd take.

If I were you I would ditch the SEO company purely on the grounds that he's untrustworthy.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe that's a question I should ask any supplier before doing business with them: are you a member of BNI?

 

[estwig]

If I were you I would ditch the SEO company purely on the grounds that he's untrustworthy.

Made me chuckle

 

[Mitch3473]

Over the years I've been almost threatened but usually begged to attend these ' meetings ' and each time, flatly refused........however I did, by mistake turn up to one, it's a long but funny story involving the phone number of Welsh Water. The upshot was I stayed and went to a few more just to see the kind of people that attended. I finally reassured myself that after 25 years in business these meetings are attended by the inexperienced and naive as well as a few established local business people whos' sole purpose is to give it the Big I Am.

 

[Gingerbreadmen]

I went as a guest a couple of years ago. Got stung for a tenner for the breakfast (didn't even have a cup of tea!) I was told enthusiastically that the breakfast cost is cheaper if I paid that via standing order every month.

I sat in amazement as everyone clapped on the update of everyone's activities since the last meeting. As if someone had just disclosed to the group that they were an alcoholic and it had been 12 hours since their last drink.

The only two businesses that were doing any good for the referrals were the hairdresser and valeting guy.

Part way through the meeting myself and the other guest got took into another room for the hard sell. The lady I was with said she was now late for work and had to leave. So it just left me, listening to the script of why I should hand over £700 of my hard earned cash for a years membership. Needless to say I didn't join.

 

[Mr D]

I've been in various groups, the pressure to refer customers in other groups can be considerable too.
A lot depends on who is in the group - some aggressive types demand referrals and I'm not comfortable with that. Some guys I've kept in touch with over the years and happy to refer particular customers their way. I trust them.

Trust has to be earned.

Went to a meeting in Coventry once where existing members had to supply 3 leads to the group each meeting then leads put in a raffle and won by a few people. Baffled me, I never went back.

 

[Ashley_Price]

BNI is very much the marmite of networking groups. Many people hate the organisation and say it doesn't work - then you have others who do very well from it.

I knew an accountant who was a member of BNI for 13 years (only leaving her Chapter when she moved to France recently). She said the average value of work she received purely thanks to BNI connections was over £20,000 per year.

If you do look to BNI you have to make absolutely certain that the Chapter you join would be right for you.

I did join one in the early 2000s, and it turned out not to be right for me, but you had several mutual businesses (a builder, an architect, a surveyor, a health and safety firm, etc...) that were passing work to each other, totalling tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of pounds.

However, on the other side of the coin there was a solicitor who was giving out at least three or four verified third party referrals every week (and occasionally she would hand out six or seven), but rarely got any referrals back.

So, I am not saying BNI doesn't work, but you have to do as much research as you can before joining.

 

[Clinton]

Many people hate the organisation and say it doesn't work - then you have others who do very well from it...So, I am not saying BNI doesn't work, but you have to do as much research as you can before joining.

That's not the point.

I don't care whether it works or not. I want your opinion on the ethics of being a member (given the requirement to shelve your integrity and recommend other members based purely on the fact that they are in the same club as you).

Anybody else replying to this thread, please try and keep to that point about whether it's dodgy to be a BNI member or not.

Trust has to be earned.

Exactly. So those readers who are BNI members (or support the whole concept), could you tell me why you don't lose trust and lose credibility people have for you when you recommend businesses based on the fact that they are scratching your back rather than because you trust them to do a good job?

 

[Ashley_Price]

I don't care whether it works or not. I want your opinion on the ethics of being a member (given the requirement to shelve your integrity and recommend other members based purely on the fact that they are in the same club as you).

Anybody else replying to this thread, please try and keep to that point about whether it's dodgy to be a BNI member or not.

Ahhh, okay, then...

As someone who was involved in BNI for two years, here's my view on the ethics of it.

No, indeed, why would you hire or recommend someone based on the fact they are in the same club as you? Well, you certainly wouldn't for the first month or so.

But part of the BNI ethos is because you meet each other every week you do start to build up a relationship with those people, and therefore grow to trust them and pass work to them. For example, the printer I still use today, I met at BNI sixteen years ago.

If a BNI Chapter is being run correctly, if there are enough complaints about a specific member's work practices, they can be kicked out. And because BNI is a "only one member from each industry", members guard their positions and offer the best service possible as they don't want to be kicked out and a competitor taking their place. (Well, as I say, if the Chapter is being run correctly.)

So, there should be some assurance when you join the Chapter that the other members do offer a good product or service, and they have good working practices, otherwise they wouldn't be part of the Chapter.

 

[estwig]

Exactly. So those readers who are BNI members (or support the whole concept), could you tell me why you don't lose trust and lose credibility people have for you when you recommend businesses based on the fact that they are scratching your back rather than because you trust them to do a good job?

I don't like BNI, I am not a member, I am not defending it.

What you describe is common and good business practice. I find good builders, kitchen fitters, double glazing people, surveyors, etc and recommend them to my clients, I don't yet know them or fully trust them. I do this on the basis they pay me for the lead, they do a good job and look after my clients. The first time I use someone on this basis I explain that if they don't do all these things, I won't recommend them again.

A good working relationship is formed based on, 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours'.

 

[Newchodge]

But part of the BNI ethos is because you meet each other every week you do start to build up a relationship with those people, and therefore grow to trust them and pass work to them.

I can't see how meeting someone in an effectively social setting gives you any information about their professional integrity. It may give you some insight into their ability to talk the talk, but tells you nothing about whether they can walk the walk. God, I hate that phrase, but sometimes it fits.

 

[Ashley_Price]

I can't see how meeting someone in an effectively social setting gives you any information about their professional integrity. It may give you some insight into their ability to talk the talk, but tells you nothing about whether they can walk the walk. God, I hate that phrase, but sometimes it fits.

But you are not meeting them on a one-to-one basis in BNI. You meet them in a setting where - if they are any good - they are getting work by other Members and being given third party referrals. There is also usually a "referrals and testimonials round", so you will hear other members mention the good job they have done.

Now, you could say these are artificial, but then how can you be certain the testimonials on someone's website are any more genuine, because you've probably never met any of them.

 

[Noah]

whether they can walk the walk. God, I hate that phrase, but sometimes it fits.

Err... "whether they can perform as claimed"? "do what they say they will"? Ooh, I've got it : "exceed expectations"!

 

[Clinton]

Now, you could say these are artificial, but then how can you be certain the testimonials on someone's website are any more genuine, because you've probably never met any of them.

Only muppets sign up with a company because of the on-site testimonials. And you ain't no muppet. I do not believe for an instant that you ever shelled out a large chunk of money to someone because of the glowing reviews they've picked out to post on their site.

I can't see how meeting someone in an effectively social setting gives you any information about their professional integrity.

It doesn't give you anything except an opportunity to feel you are reclaiming a little self-respect, it allows you to grab on to a plausible alternate reason why you made the recommendation (other that pure self interest) ie, "I know the guy and he seems kosher".

That said, if you are recommending someone and honestly pointing out that you know nothing about their professional competence (except for the in-cult recommendations by other members!), then that's okay. But in an environment like BNI where you have to meet targets, and everyone is under pressure to drive business to other members, is it not the case that most people are making referrals only in the hope that they will get similar "blind" referrals in return?

 

[estwig]

All very guarded aren't we!

To form a relationship with anyone, business or personal, someone has to take a chance. Rock solid guarantees of performance are not available and never will be.

 

[estwig]

Only muppets sign up with a company because of the on-site testimonials. And you ain't no muppet. I do not believe for an instant that you ever shelled out a large chunk of money to someone because of the glowing reviews they've picked out to post on their site.

Mine do and have done for almost 20 years now.
I even increasingly do work for people who have never met me, or spoken to me and probably never will.

I take large deposits running into hundreds of pounds based on nothing more than a website, a promise and because I ask for the money.

As a builder over 10 years ago now, someone would contact me based on my website, I would go and see them and we would talk. A week later I would go back and leave with a cash deposit running into thousands. I now do exactly the same thing, but it's done by email and a bank transfer.
This is normal for me and has been for a very long time.