Begging... A Lifestyle Choice?

[quikshop]

Two rough sleepers were convicted at Wolves Court last week for a breach of the peace for their persistent aggressive begging, and a woman is due in Court on the same charges.

Wolves Police said that they went out of their way to offer support and assistance for all 3 defendants to access local accommodation but the rough sleepers refused all offers of help.

The number of rough sleepers has undoubtedly increased in the last 12 months. More migrants without a bed, more people falling out the bottom of our "capitalism with a social conscience", more mentally ill left to their own devices but also an increase in those choosing to sleep rough.

Can't criticise rough sleepers though without immediately being branded as far right, racist or some other offensive label...

 

[Newchodge]

The local accommodation on offer is frequently not local - up to 50 miles away may not be an issue for people with access to transport but is completely unacceptable to those without. It is usually, also hostel accommodation, or what used to be called a doss house. Accommodation in dormitories, shared with whoever else may be there, who may, and probably do, have mental health and/or addiction issues. Nowhere to keep property safe and a requirement to leave the accommodation by 9am and not to return before 5pm.

A lot of people prefer to sleep rough than to accept that offer.

Incidentally, the police do not offer support and assistance to access local accommodation, they point the way to the organisations that provide that support.

A lot of councils have introduced bye laws banning people from areas where there may be tourists, as seeing someone destitute may stop those tourists from spending money in the tourist attractions.

A very few people may make a lifestyle choice to live rough. Most make the choice between completely unacceptable alternatives. Given a viable alternative few would choose rough sleeping.

 

[paulears]

In one city, their accommodation is frequently underused, and coming out of Tesco, the 'homeless' person suddenly pulled out an iPhone, answered it and said - "what do you want, I'm at work".

Sadly since that moment, I view the beggars as businessmen. Watching the foreign ladies being dropped ofd at their pitches in a Range Rover helped my conviction. I'm sure some beggars are genuine, but I just mistrust them all now. The Tesco pitch also revealed a beggar getting cross because somebody handed over the packet of cakes they'd bought, instead of the 'spare change' requested!

 

[Scalloway]

40 years ago you would have been horrified if you saw a beggar on the street, now it is socially acceptable.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

I live near Colchester, found to be in the top 50 homeless hotspots in the UK.

One of my clients is a day centre for the homeless and I have a good relationship with the manager there. I've spoken with her frequently. Two things that are interesting in the topic of homelessness.

One - there is a national campaign that for a while was posted all over the high street saying "don't give to homeless people, give to homeless charities"...basically due to drug and alcohol abuse.

Two - there is adequate (not great, but certainly adequate) facilities for the homeless, but it's subject to conditions such as no violence, no drink and no drugs. Unfortunately the clients don't like adhering to this policy and as such get banned.

Finally, it's interesting that (in Colchester) the people that "look" homeless are often not being entirely genuine, as the homeless ALL have access to fresh clothes, shower, doctor, foot clinic, hair dresser, laundry and assistance with benefits (including postal addres) through this organisation.

The real problem is mental health and substance abuse - that's the cause of perpetual homelessness.

 

[Newchodge]

Finally, it's interesting that (in Colchester) the people that "look" homeless are often not being entirely genuine, as the homeless ALL have access to fresh clothes, shower, doctor, foot clinic, hair dresser, laundry and assistance with benefits (including postal addres) through this organisation.

Do you mean all homeless or all those who are prepared to give up certain rights in order to be considered deserving by this organisation?

 

[Jason Mageehan]

Do you mean all homeless or all those who are prepared to give up certain rights in order to be considered deserving by this organisation?

The organisation helps all who are homeless or at risk of homelessness.

My point was actually that many people wear certain clothing to appear in such a way, but they have access to good clothes, good washing facilities and laundry for no cost.

 

[Newchodge]

The last I heard, drinking alcohol is perfectly legal, although being drunk and disorderly is illegal. Taking drugs is legal, although possessing them is illegal. Violence is obviously illegal.

Do people think it is right that people who have nowhere to live should be subjected to rules that those who have homes are not subjected to?

Separately, if you had nowhere to live, no job, no money and no prospect of changing that situation, might you take the occasional drink?

 

[Jason Mageehan]

The last I heard, drinking alcohol is perfectly legal, although being drunk and disorderly is illegal. Taking drugs is legal, although possessing them is illegal. Violence is obviously illegal.

The reason there is a restriction on these things is for the safety of the other clients and the staff. I'm sorry, but I've actually been to these overnight shelters - it's not perfect, but it's warm and dry, there's plenty of food and drink and health facilities - but there is a certain level of respect and behaviour that has to be met to co-exist in any situation.

Do people think it is right that people who have nowhere to live should be subjected to rules that those who have homes are not subjected to?

I'm sorry, I don't know whether you've seen these places close up, but I have. I've spent quite a while chatting with the clients of this organisation and the staff while we did a few projects with them. We're not talking about a few glasses of wine by the fire, a bit of roughhousing, followed by a spliff while looking at the stars. Everyone that co-exists in society HAS to behave a certain way.

Separately, if you had nowhere to live, no job, no money and no prospect of changing that situation, might you take the occasional drink?

Possibly, but like I say, continually drinking is why many are homeless - without the drink, they could be in housing, getting help. Certainly for this area, that is a FACT, not conjecture.

 

[Newchodge]

These people, huh, what do they expect when they are homeless and drunks and drug addicts.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

These people, huh, what do they expect when they are homeless and drunks and drug addicts.

Perhaps you could describe an alternative where people can do / act the way they like?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The real problem is mental health and substance abuse - that's the cause of perpetual homelessness.

Add to mental health problems those who are just not able to cope in our increasingly complex world.

Years ago there were a number of unskilled jobs that people could do and earn a decent wage and have respect. Farm labourers are an example. Now driving a tractor with highly sophisticated machinery on the back requires skill and intelligence. Even road sweeping now involves driving a machine with controls that look like mission control. Those who could just about work a broom are no longer needed.

 

[ethical PR]

I thought I would join in the discussion as I co-founded a charity for women experiencing homelessness so know a little about the subject.

I've also volunteered in homeless shelters, rather than just visiting so understand something about the client group and how they work.

Street homeless include runaways, children who have left care and at 18 who receive no support or priority for social housing, people with mental health or learning disabilities, people with drug and alcohol issues, those from the armed forces, young people and adults on the streets because of family breakdown and or domestic/sexual violence.

Yes we all have a story about the guy or woman outside Tesco's or the station who begs while they have a home. Just because a small number of people play the system, doesn't mean there isn't a real issue with street homelessness and people living in unsuitable accommodation.

The majority of street homeless are not out begging and genuinely don't have a safe, decent place to live.

Most homeless night shelters are regularly over subscribed and are not suitable for all.

Young people who are street homeless often don't want to use them because they feel vulnerable there. People with animals can't use many of them. And as mentioned above people who are using drugs/alcohol/severe mental health issues which can make them subject to aggressive behaviour also can't used them.

I think it's rather a sweeping statement to say "As the homeless ALL have access to fresh clothes, shower, doctor, foot clinic, hair dresser, laundry and assistance with benefits (including postal addres (sp) ) through this organisation"

Night shelters and other temporary accommodation house a only a proportion of those who are street homeless, despite the governments 'No Second Night Out' initiative, and people can only stay in them for limited number of nights. Thousands are left on the streets or in unsuitable accommodation. Even according to government figures street homelessness increased by 30% in 2015.

Sleeping rough is dangerous and harmful to people's health. Shameful this happens in 21st Century Britain.

OP I don't think you are right wing or racist for criticising street homeless - just ignorant and uninformed.

 

[sirearl]

There but by the grace of God,being born in the UK and having the right parents go I.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I read an article once where a young lady spoke about her homelessness.

I can't remember the exact figure, but I was surprised at how much she was actually able to make on a daily basis by begging. The amount often far exceeded how much someone on minimum wage would earn for an 8 hour shift.

She also fell out with her family, and while she could have a place to stay, she chose not to.

In a strange way, it's understandable. She may currently have more disposable income than she feels she would have by living a "normal" life (and she may be correct).

And while she doesn't have the safety and warmth of a home, I think long-term homelessness can start to desensitise people. Given enough time, they may start to forget how that really feels, so the urgency to change starts to fade.

It is, after all, about perspective. There are tribes in the Amazon where the people have far more primitive (and dangerous) lifestyles than homeless Brits do.

Yet they are happy. It's their life. It's all they know. They have nothing to compare it to.

In fact, many of them probably smile more, laugh more, and feel a greater sense of wellbeing than many wealthy people out there with big homes, fancy jobs and many friends.

This is where it can get confusing. To me, being homeless is an utterly nightmarish thought. One of the worst. However, the girl in the article I read openly admitted that she wasn't really that bothered about getting housed and employed.

But it's important not to tar everyone with the same brush. There are scam artists, genuine homeless people, mentally disabled, homeless people by choice, and homeless people who are desperate to get out of the situation they're in.

It's very mixed and very complicated, where two people could have completely different reasons for being homeless, and completely different perspectives on what they want to do next.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

I think it's rather a sweeping statement to say "As the homeless ALL have access to fresh clothes, shower, doctor, foot clinic, hair dresser, laundry and assistance with benefits (including postal addres (sp) ) through this organisation"

Apologies if it wasn't clear, I was talking specifically about one area identified by shelter as a homeless hotspot, not on a national scale.

 

[The Byre]

There but by the grace of God,being born in the UK and having the right parents go I.

Thank you!

I am probably the only person here who has actually been homeless. That was a long time ago, I hasten to add, but I believe that my 30 cents worth is also worth listening to.

Let me make one thing totally clear - the homeless and shelter provision by various bodies is an industry. Just as doctors need sick people, the police need delinquent motorists and criminals, so does the homeless industry need the homeless.

The homeless industry is designed to perpetuate homelessness and if you are homeless, you must do everything in your power to avoid those institutions, if you are to ever get back on your feet and actually find a home, a job and a decent way of life for yourself and your family.

The answer to homelessness is not the parasitic industry of social workers, hostels, psychiatrists, psychologists and information leaflets being handed out by the police, but homes.

The only problem is, the moment anybody tries to do anything constructive to build more homes and make those existing home affordable, the great Middle Classes rise to their feet as one man and shout Not In My Back Yard!

We even have a system of planning laws that interlock, with provision of green belts and green spaces, listed buildings and strict rules for most areas, that seek deliberately to stop the building of decent housing for the majority.

"We have million pound cottages with thatched roofs and a very popular 300-acre golf course. This is hardly the area for blocks of flats at what you call affordable prices!"

Imagine! All those greedy buy-to-let dealing affluent pensioners would rise in abject horror, if any government were to introduce decent building standards and rent control!

 

[Newchodge]

@The Byre. I have to disagree. You are not the only person here who has been homeless.

Apart from that, you are spot on.

 

[sirearl]

As a nation we need to ban golf to solve the homeless problem.

Its the price of land that makes the majority poor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/11/uk-housing-golf-courses_n_4254512.html

 

[UKSBD]

A bit off-topic but, it's not the begging as a lifestyle choice that annoys me it's the selling The Big Issue as a lifestyle choice that does.

I always used to buy The Big Issue as I saw it as a way of helping someone who was temporarily in hardship.

We used to have a chap selling it in our town and I would buy a copy most months, a year later he was still there selling it, then there was a change, a lady had his pitch and I stated buying it off her, thinking he must have sorted himself out.

A couple of months later I was in a town up the road and there was the original seller, he had obviously just changed his pitch.

I was a bit peeved about that but then final straw was when I saw them both together somewhere as a couple.

They've been at these same 2 pitches now for at least 7 or 8 years, occasionally swapping pitches.

They probably make more money than most of the people who give to them

That's not what The Big Issue should be about in my eyes and I haven't bought a copy in at least 3 years now.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

As a nation we need to ban golf to solve the homeless problem.

Its the price of land that makes the majority poor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/11/uk-housing-golf-courses_n_4254512.html

You're right. And those pesky farms take up space too. FOR ANIMALS AND PLANTS?!

OH, and all those industrial estates - just sitting there making money in their ivory towers.

Not forgetting the airports too - so the rich fat cats can go on their holidays....urgh.

And the ROADS - gosh, let's not forget the amount of land that's dedicated to roads so the the upper classes can drive around in their bentleys.

OH and those flipping national trust guys - all the land THEY take up with their stately homes that they charge a fortune....and the royal palaces! Kensington palace alone could house 1,000 families.

You're completely right - let's get Corbyn in - he'll bulldoze everything, and he'll replace our defences with a typing pool of uneducated workers sending strongly worded letters to terrorists and dictators around the world.

 

[The Byre]

 

[billmccallum1957]

@The Byre. I have to disagree. You are not the only person here who has been homeless.
.

Ditto. I too spent some weeks on the street (many years ago), I took notice of Norman Tebbit

(NORMAN Tebbit yesterday urged jobless Britons to be more like eastern Europeans and “get on their bike” to find work.)

And hitch hiked to Birmingham to look for work.

6 weeks later I went home, jobless.

 

[billmccallum1957]

I live near Colchester, found to be in the top 50 homeless hotspots in the UK.

One of my clients is a day centre for the homeless and I have a good relationship with the manager there. I've spoken with her frequently. Two things that are interesting in the topic of homelessness.
.

Jason, will all due respect, knowing someone who manages a shelter does not really give you a fast track to what's going in the homeless community, you only get a limited perspective based on a someone else's experience at a very local level.

Do you know how many ex-service personnel who have come home from war and found themselves on the street (not being eligible for social housing, suffering from PTSD, etc)? Who now find themselves on a housing waiting list for single accommodation that is almost impossible to access.

Do you know how many young people, fleeing domestic violence and sexual abuse, are on the street? Most of whom don't have drug and alcohol problems, but just don't have a clue how to get out of the vicious circle of living on benefits and not being able to find the cash for a deposit and advance rent which can be £1,000, just to get a small flat.

I could go on to list the many types of people who are on the street for very different reasons, not just those who drink and take drugs.

 

[billmccallum1957]

Forgot to add....

There are distinct groups, the homeless and beggars, we should not confuse which is which.

There are many beggars who are homeless and there are homeless who beg, but there are a great deal of beggars who do it for the cash, tax free income.

 

[sirearl]

You're right. And those pesky farms take up space too. FOR ANIMALS AND PLANTS?!

OH, and all those industrial estates - just sitting there making money in their ivory towers.

Not forgetting the airports too - so the rich fat cats can go on their holidays....urgh.

And the ROADS - gosh, let's not forget the amount of land that's dedicated to roads so the the upper classes can drive around in their bentleys.

OH and those flipping national trust guys - all the land THEY take up with their stately homes that they charge a fortune....and the royal palaces! Kensington palace alone could house 1,000 families.

You're completely right - let's get Corbyn in - he'll bulldoze everything, and he'll replace our defences with a typing pool of uneducated workers sending strongly worded letters to terrorists and dictators around the world.

No flies on you Jason,oops you is the flyer expert .

Do you do silly walks as well.

 

[ethical PR]

Apologies if it wasn't clear, I was talking specifically about one area identified by shelter as a homeless hotspot, not on a national scale.

Yes I know you were Jason. I am saying I don't believe the organisation you have done work for houses all those who are homeless in your area. There are certainly likely to be either those who aren't accepted by them, don't know about it, or can't get in.

 

[ethical PR]

I read an article once where a young lady spoke about her homelessness.

I can't remember the exact figure, but I was surprised at how much she was actually able to make on a daily basis by begging. The amount often far exceeded how much someone on minimum wage would earn for an 8 hour shift.

She also fell out with her family, and while she could have a place to stay, she chose not to.

In a strange way, it's understandable. She may currently have more disposable income than she feels she would have by living a "normal" life (and she may be correct).

And while she doesn't have the safety and warmth of a home, I think long-term homelessness can start to desensitise people. Given enough time, they may start to forget how that really feels, so the urgency to change starts to fade.

It is, after all, about perspective. There are tribes in the Amazon where the people have far more primitive (and dangerous) lifestyles than homeless Brits do.

Yet they are happy. It's their life. It's all they know. They have nothing to compare it to.

In fact, many of them probably smile more, laugh more, and feel a greater sense of wellbeing than many wealthy people out there with big homes, fancy jobs and many friends.

This is where it can get confusing. To me, being homeless is an utterly nightmarish thought. One of the worst. However, the girl in the article I read openly admitted that she wasn't really that bothered about getting housed and employed.

But it's important not to tar everyone with the same brush. There are scam artists, genuine homeless people, mentally disabled, homeless people by choice, and homeless people who are desperate to get out of the situation they're in.

It's very mixed and very complicated, where two people could have completely different reasons for being homeless, and completely different perspectives on what they want to do next.

Was it in the Daily Mail

 

[Jason Mageehan]

Jason, will all due respect, knowing someone who manages a shelter does not really give you a fast track to what's going in the homeless community, you only get a limited perspective based on a someone else's experience at a very local level.

Do you know how many ex-service personnel who have come home from war and found themselves on the street (not being eligible for social housing, suffering from PTSD, etc)? Who now find themselves on a housing waiting list for single accommodation that is almost impossible to access.

Do you know how many young people, fleeing domestic violence and sexual abuse, are on the street? Most of whom don't have drug and alcohol problems, but just don't have a clue how to get out of the vicious circle of living on benefits and not being able to find the cash for a deposit and advance rent which can be £1,000, just to get a small flat.

I could go on to list the many types of people who are on the street for very different reasons, not just those who drink and take drugs.

It's not a shelter, it's a day centre, and the point I was making was more about this particular area and quoting someone in the know about what the core issues that they are facing are.

But, I apologise that I've caused you offence and I fully retract all of my comments.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

Yes I know you were Jason. I am saying I don't believe the organisation you have done work for houses all those who are homeless in your area. There are certainly likely to be either those who aren't accepted by them, don't know about it, or can't get in.

I don't think this comment is accurate, but, I apologise that I've caused you offence and I fully retract all of my comments.

I'm not here to offend people, just offer some knowledge from being involved with an organisation that I've extensively worked with and shared their perspective.

Like I say, I withdraw all of my comments, and I fully apologise for any offence caused.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

Do you do silly walks as well.

Is there any other way to walk?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Was it in the Daily Mail

It was a local paper. Just a direct, face-to-face interview. No attempt to paint a picture either way.

I've also red a few stories about some people who are actually eager to be homeless. Yes, they do have some money, and even smartphones and laptops in some cases. But they prefer a more "nomadic" lifestyle where they sleep where they can and spend their days sat in libraries and parks.

And then of course, you have people like Mark Suelo and Mark Boyle, who have both chose to live a life without money. They sleep in caves and forests, and hunt their own food.

They are in the minority, of course, but it's interesting how one person's nightmare lifestyle can be another person's preference.

 

[Cobby]

A bit off-topic but, it's not the begging as a lifestyle choice that annoys me it's the selling The Big Issue as a lifestyle choice that does.

I always used to buy The Big Issue as I saw it as a way of helping someone who was temporarily in hardship.

We used to have a chap selling it in our town and I would buy a copy most months, a year later he was still there selling it, then there was a change, a lady had his pitch and I stated buying it off her, thinking he must have sorted himself out.

A couple of months later I was in a town up the road and there was the original seller, he had obviously just changed his pitch.

I was a bit peeved about that but then final straw was when I saw them both together somewhere as a couple.

They've been at these same 2 pitches now for at least 7 or 8 years, occasionally swapping pitches.

They probably make more money than most of the people who give to them

That's not what The Big Issue should be about in my eyes and I haven't bought a copy in at least 3 years now.

May I ask why, specifically, you have completely stopped buying it? Your post just seems to be generally moralising about the lifestyles of two people you know almost nothing about. Have you stopped buying it anywhere? Or just from these two people?

 

[UKSBD]

May I ask why, specifically, you have completely stopped buying it? Your post just seems to be generally moralising about the lifestyles of two people you know almost nothing about. Have you stopped buying it anywhere? Or just from these two people?

Just from these two people.
It's a small town and they are the only 2 ever there.

 

[billmccallum1957]

It's not a shelter, it's a day centre, and the point I was making was more about this particular area and quoting someone in the know about what the core issues that they are facing are.

But, I apologise that I've caused you offence and I fully retract all of my comments.

No need to apologise, you didn't cause offence.

It just seemed that you were taking what one person has told you to make a judgement on the issue at hand, which can make it difficult to understand the real scale of the problem, which does not have a "one size fits all" solution.

 

[Jason Mageehan]

No need to apologise, you didn't cause offence.

It just seemed that you were taking what one person has told you to make a judgement on the issue at hand, which can make it difficult to understand the real scale of the problem, which does not have a "one size fits all" solution.

Unfortunately I don't think any organisation provides a one-size-fits-all approach, but in what is a homeless hotspot outside of london, they are facing similar problems, and a high percentage of it seems to be related to alcohol and drugs.

The day centre chooses not to run these campaigns, but local authorities all over the UK are in unison about the alcohol and drug problem and a significantly high cause and effect of homelessness.

 

[quikshop]

OP I don't think you are right wing or racist for criticising street homeless - just ignorant and uninformed.

Its an emotive subject and I purposely set it up in the way I did to provoke debate, so while I accept the uninformed label, calling me ignorant validates my last OP sentence.

I was involved in a similar debate on The Guardian forums about squatters. Some just would not accept that squatters, rather than all being down on their luck or out of options, include criminals and anarchists hell bent on destruction and chaos... and no, they do not deserve the same rights as those that accept societies rules.

 

[ethical PR]

Calling you ignorant @quikshop in no way validates the last comment in your original post.

I didn't brand you as right wing or racist for being critical of people who are homeless. Which is what you said in your last comment on your OP that people would do.

I called you ignorant and uniformed for generalising..... You are.

 

[quikshop]

Calling you ignorant @quikshop in no way validates the last comment in your original post.

I didn't brand you as right wing or racist for being critical of people who are homeless. Which is what you said in your last comment on your OP that people would do.

I called you ignorant and uniformed for generalising..... You are.

Now that's just personal

The point of the last sentence in the OP was that of being negatively labelled if someone criticises those who are seen collectively as the most vulnerable in society. You proved my point, and continue to do so.

I used to run an office based business in Derby. It was in a run down part of the town, and close to a drop-in centre for all manner of homeless. Invariably by midday there would be half a dozen homeless lined up on the wall outside the centre drinking Super Strength lagers and getting increasingly vocal and intimidating to passer-bys. The Police would occasionally arrive and move them on, a pointless exercise.

Stand-up citizens deserving of societies help and support?

 

[Scalloway]

Alcohol numbs the pain of the hopeless situation you are in.