Bad Web Designer - What can you do?

[BootCamp]

My friend, who post on here has had a website done, from someone else on here, so I wont be mentioning either of their names.

But basically, my friend has been a bit naive, but has also been treated very poorly from his website designer.

They did not get a contract sorted. But my friend does have the full description of the site he wanted saved in his outbox. The quote he did get did not mention a deadline, despite the fact there was an agreed deadline, this was over the phone and not wrote down. He paid upfront for it. Cash.

The site has now come and looks not a thing like expected. I actually feel really bad as I told him to come on here to find a web designer.

So anyway, he asked for changes to be made so it represents the agreed site. The designer has refused and asked for more money to complete it.

Is small claims the only way they can go?

 

[RBS]

Did he check web designers portfolio before giving him a job?

I will repeat AGAIN: ALWAYS ask for full portfolio. Dont fall for sweet words like "I am professional", "I have 10 years experience", "I have done website for council", "I have done 50 web sites, but I can show you just 4 because others are on my other PC/other bullocks".

Lesson learned for your mate. If you get web designer here on forum, it doesnt mean they are good. This forum for example doesnt have ANY which would satisfy my eyes, most of them just because IMO they have crap portfolio or doesnt have at all.

 

[Mjf]

My friend, who post on here has had a website done, from someone else on here, so I wont be mentioning either of their names.

But basically, my friend has been a bit naive, but has also been treated very poorly from his website designer.

They did not get a contract sorted. But my friend does have the full description of the site he wanted saved in his outbox. The quote he did get did not mention a deadline, despite the fact there was an agreed deadline, this was over the phone and not wrote down. He paid upfront for it. Cash.

The site has now come and looks not a thing like expected. I actually feel really bad as I told him to come on here to find a web designer.

So anyway, he asked for changes to be made so it represents the agreed site. The designer has refused and asked for more money to complete it.

Is small claims the only way they can go?

Your friend could always threaten to put the details up on this forum and ensuring they will get no more business through this forum.

If your friend wishes to PM me I can help them out, if they wish!

 

[jedz]

Did he check web designers portfolio before giving him a job?

I will repeat AGAIN: ALWAYS ask for full portfolio. Dont fall for sweet words like "I am professional", "I have 10 years experience", "I have done website for council", "I have done 50 web sites, but I can show you just 4 because others are on my other PC/other bullocks".

Lesson learned for your mate. If you get web designer here on forum, it doesnt mean they are good. This forum for example doesnt have ANY which would satisfy my eyes, most of them just because IMO they have crap portfolio or doesnt have at all.

I agree with you mate.

There are three things to ask when outsourcing projects.
1. Portfolio/Samples
2. References
3, Non Disclosure Agreement.

We always provide that to our clients, it helps them to decide. If your friend is still looking we can definitely help you out.

 

[nekoinu]

Small claims seems like his only option to me, but IMO he may or may not actually win. The designer did design a website and unless your friend had drawn the layout on a piece of paper or whatever for him, it's going to be hard to prove your friend didn't just change his mind after the fact. I'm guessing that likely there was no revision policy agreed on either and, you know it's going to happen, since it was paid in cash the designer is going to say the friend didn't give him all his money to begin with.

I'd probably still file though as chances are the designer would settle out of court. Even if he can win it's easier for him not to take off from work and appear.

 

[fisicx]

Is the designer in the UK?

It's often the case that the coding is outsourced and the overseas developer has delivered the site with no agreement for changes. I have a current client in exactly this situation, even worse they have removed the demo site form the server so we can't even nick a copy.

So yes, you can take them to small claims but remember that the site belongs to the desinger - unless there is written agreement that copy write will get handed owner your friend owns nothing.

 

[*Lexxy*]

sorry i can't offer any advice.

i have to ask though, if this person is on this forum offering their wares, why can't they be named? i'm not saying go into minute detail or anything, but just as a warning to others. i do understand that as a friend & a forum member, you are in a difficult position.

perhaps this puts sift in a difficult position, but it's not their responsibility either (does this change if they're a paid up member i wonder?). is there an area in the paid up section where feedback can be left on any services taken up from people on here?

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

Had a similar situation myself, the guy had a good portfolio etc all seemed OK. Agreed plans for site, what features it had and all that, we supplied the text, pictures - the site arrived and was nothing like what was envisaged. I looked like it had been slapped together in a few days. I was told they were unable to put the agreed photos on there due to the fact they 'couldn't do it' and the combi box form wasn't there - just a list in word with lines across the screen.

The worst bit was - you couldn't access the e-mail! So we could not retrieve enquiries. A year down the line, the designer is still running away - i just want him to hand over the site, but he keeps running.

I have two choices, i can either break his legs to stop him running so he listens, or just go elsewhere, build another site with someone more proffesional, and then you that as an example in a court case against him.

Web designers vary alot in skill - there is no standard to say, this one is advanced and good, and this one is a muppet - you have to shop around. Live and learn - get the website running properly and then sort the designer out.

 

[Mjf]

sorry i can't offer any advice.

i have to ask though, if this person is on this forum offering their wares, why can't they be named? i'm not saying go into minute detail or anything, but just as a warning to others. i do understand that as a friend & a forum member, you are in a difficult position.

perhaps this puts sift in a difficult position, but it's not their responsibility either (does this change if they're a paid up member i wonder?). is there an area in the paid up section where feedback can be left on any services taken up from people on here?

As I said previously even the threat might work, as they may already receive work through the forum.

 

[kevin555]

It would be interesting to know how much he paid.

When people say I need a website I liken it to a car purchase. Some people expect a Lamborghini but are only willing to pay for an old banger and then complain when they get delivered an old banger!

Some of the logo 'specialists' on here who say they will design a logo for £20 or whatever send you a load of rubbish. You do pay for what you get. And you should always ask for references / portfolio and ask how much would website A cost, website B etc.

Without knowing what it looks like and how much he paid there really is nothing more to comment on - and even then it is a very subjective area.

Like nekoinu says he did get a website.

 

[lww]

Just to concur on the "after-the-horse-has-bolted" advice, you should get reference sites up front, agree a design with a good degree of detail, and not pay more than a token amount up front - I agreed a staged payment schedule with our developer, eg. payment when home page and navigation controls to all holding pages in place; next payment when registration and database integration complete; final payment when online payment processing in place and functional bugs fixed on all major browsers (list provided!).

Given you have already paid up front, there are only 2 ways to resolve this issue - either you get the developer to fix what you perceive to be the problems, or you get a full or partial refund. The problem comes with how you perceived the site compared to how you described it and what was agreed - I'm not saying the site isn't bad, just that one person's description of an idea does not always translate well to another person!

You could start by explaining more specifically what the main issues are - are pages missing? Is database integration functional? Is online payment processing in place? If it's more the look and feel of the website rather than the functionality of it that is a concern, provided the developer has used CSS then it should be pretty easy to change to how you want it. Most developers are pretty poor designers, and most designers are pretty poor developers - it's hard to get both right first time!

If you want a "neutral" opinion, then feel free to PM me the website address and a copy of what you asked for. I'm happy to give you an honest opinion on it. If it really is as bad as you're suggesting then I think you should put details on here so others don't come across the same problems, but it's worth getting at least one "second opinion" first IMO.

 

[BootCamp]

from what he has shown me there was an agreement on two key features of animation, and galleries that are not there.

There is also some media section that is there but its CMS is in word press. So it isnt like the vids are hosted on the site, ou have to click through a number of things to get to it.

Oh an he paid £1200. Upfront. Oooops

 

[fisicx]

So what does your friend want, their money back or a working site?

Word press is easy, it's a matter of installing plugins, they are fee ands take about a minute to get working.

You did mention forms not working, again it's just another plugin. All free.

So really all you friend has paid for is for the developer to download wordpress (free) set up a theme (free) and install some free plugins. There might have been a little tweaking to the theme but that's a quick and easy job to do.

Suggest you friend goes for their money back as the developer doesn't seem to have the skills to provide the service asked for.

 

[kevin555]

He might be on an expensive hourly rate of £1200 per hour!

But to be serious, we all need to take lessons from paying up front for goods.

I am about to pay up front for a service. And it's made me think again.

I will pay half up front for half the work. Check that is ok, before I 'commission' the other half. Essentially staged payments.

At least that way I'll only lose half my fee if the first part of the work doesn't do what I want it to.

 

[Faevilangel]

Unless you have written confirmation of what was meant to be have done, you're pretty well stuck. The designer has given your friend some peice of work, which he can say is what your friend wanted..

Most freelancers only ask for a deposit up front, not the full money, unfortunately this is one of the times you learn from your mistakes.

I would think about naming the culprit or they will just do it again

 

[Ampheon]

Your friend may have some recourse in the small claims court under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, and 'fitness for purpose' which applies to both B2B and B2C. A lot will depend on the design process though. For example, did he at any time see a proof of the design before the site was built, and have the opportunity to provide feedback? If he did and approved the design that was then subsequently delivered to that standard then that would rule out any claim as he would have approved the design itself and the designer then simply delivered on the requirements. So, potentially, there is some comeback.

The other question though is how much did he pay? If it was a few hundred pounds it is probably best to accept the loss, walk way and start again with a reputable firm rather than going through a time consuming legal process which doesn't necessarily have a guaranteed outcome. Legal is messy, and in my opinion energy, time and money could be better spent accepting where one is and moving on.

We take on a lot of clients who have experienced similar situations. That's not self-promotion, just to make you aware that you are not alone. It happens frequently and is the result of an unregulated market, cheap tools and people without any real professional design, SEO or business experience purporting to be 'web designers'.

I agree completely with earlier comments too - always investigate who you're going to work with by speaking to the company's clients for a reference.

 

[LeeatMerlin]

I think your friend and you might have to put this one down as one of lifes lessons. Never give money up front, or at least if you are giving money up front, then do a Half now, half on completion of the job.

Sounds like your web designer has just done his own thing, but unless a contract was written up and a detailed specification was agreed on layout and images and such, then i dont think theres a lot your going to be able to do.

Its maybe worth a try emailing Trading standards and CC'ing his email into the email you send them and see if that scares him a little into doing the job properly.

Hope you get this sorted!

Lee Merlin Software Ltd

 

[Lasting Designs]

Design brief is there for a reason, complete with a summery of what you must have. Adding the price to be paid and a notice of payment dates, amounts etc. A contract (verbal or otherwise) is a two way thing, the designer may be aggrieved that his side of the deal is done and a chancer has got what he's asked for and now is set on ripping THEM off, and it happens in all industries...

Get everything in writing and keep the follow-up documents too (and copies of those sent) IMV, your mate didn't follow the steps that most successful business use everyday in running their companies, a lesson learned me thinks.

 

[ooh]

The site has now come and looks not a thing like expected. ...

So anyway, he asked for changes to be made so it represents the agreed site. The designer has refused and asked for more money to complete it.

What are his thoughts/comments about "The site has now come and looks not a thing like expected" ? What did he say to that?

It's quite possible to do excellent work and get a client saying "looks not a thing like expected". On the other hand it's possible to do ropey work and get that of course.

I'm just looking for a bit more than "The site has now come and looks not a thing like expected" to make me think you've definitely been hard done by. I'm not saying you haven't but there is there not a chance that the work is OK?

 

[RBS]

Oh jesus, 1.2k paid upfront.... biggest mistake every made. NEVER pay for web design fully upfront. Massive rip off.

Anything around Wordpress is FREE - wordpress, themes, plugins(gallery, contact form etc).

 

[Kev Jaques]

This kind of thing always peeves me. This is why I adopted a good design process years ago when I started. Ok it takes a bit longer to get there but the planning, analysis and getting the client on board with the suggestions/advice on each of the stages is so much easier in the short term which lasts well until the project is completed and beyond.
A full set of requirements is usually the name of the game before anything is started, if it has got to the stage of something totally unexpected and as ooh mentioned it could go either way, this is the reason why good web designers/developers need a good solid process.

I would disagree with some of the points Ampheon mentioned "cheap tools", hmm many developers use notepad++ which is freeware (with donation) yet their XHTML and CSS can be completely up to par.

 

[Ampheon]

Ahh - I was about to agree with you totally there Kev until the last sentence...

Sorry, by cheap tools I meant easy-to-use, freeware / shareware that makes anyone believe they can be a designer - not knocking Notepad ++ - great product. That is, there is no barrier to entry for anyone and their dog to think they're a web designer when they're not - which can give those of us who are professionals a bad name, or make us work harder to prove we're not in the same boat, or try to make us pitch against their often under-quoted prices....

 

[Faevilangel]

I would disagree with some of the points Ampheon mentioned "cheap tools", hmm many developers use notepad++ which is freeware (with donation) yet their XHTML and CSS can be completely up to par.

Exactly, I use a mixture of free & paid tool (notepad2, fireworks, gimp) and I believe my coding work is perfectly fine.

@ Robcctv - Because 1000's of free wordpress themes out there, does not mean every theme is going to be free. I charge to create custom wp themes and they take time and are one offs.
There are lots of websites that sell wordpress templates, there is a market to sell them. It just depends on the users needs and what their budget is.

£1200 for a wp theme is excessive tho, unless it has something unique that another theme won't have, but £500-600 is about fair for a wp theme

 

[Kev Jaques]

Yea, that's better put Malcolm, in total agreement with you
When I was in the construction industry years ago, that had its fair share of cowboys! Now I'm in IT I've seen no limit to the amount of cowboys out there. Then I wonder why people don't have the common courtesy of mailing back when you are trying to help them with their business (and then they end up with not using the services of a professional)

 

[Faevilangel]

Yea, that's better put Malcolm, in total agreement with you
When I was in the construction industry years ago, that had its fair share of cowboys! Now I'm in IT I've seen no limit to the amount of cowboys out there. Then I wonder why people don't have the common courtesy of mailing back when you are trying to help them with their business (and then they end up with not using the services of a professional)

Don't get me started on that

I get an e-mail, i submit a quote which I believe is reasonable and I hear nada back. Also the ones who ask you to build a site, get right to the end and payment time.... and silence, no communication

I'm owed money from one client, 6 months ago I sent the invoice

 

[lww]

I'm owed money from one client, 6 months ago I sent the invoice

If they are a business, issue a further invoice for compensation and interest (8.5%) under the Late Payment Of Commercial Debts Act. Anything they do pay goes towards that before your original invoice. Advise them that unless payment is received within 7 days you will proceed with a winding up order.

If they are an individual give them 7 days notice of proceeding to the Small Claims Court, then file it online if they don't pay.

Nobody should be waiting 6 months to be paid!

 

[Faevilangel]

If they are a business, issue a further invoice for compensation and interest (8.5%) under the Late Payment Of Commercial Debts Act. Anything they do pay goes towards that before your original invoice. Advise them that unless payment is received within 7 days you will proceed with a winding up order.

If they are an individual give them 7 days notice of proceeding to the Small Claims Court, then file it online if they don't pay.

Nobody should be waiting 6 months to be paid!

It's a LTD company, I know the owner was having difficulties so gave him till february till pay, and now I can't contact him at all.

I am going to send an invoice to his e-mail and to his address, and then see what happens

 

[Mike Jones]

I run a web design company based in Southport - it's actually a franchise of a national company (ORCA Websites) who have a portfolio of several hundred SME clients. (A large sample is on the portfolio of the Head Office website).

We don't charge at all until the client approves the design. Once they approve the design they pay 25% deposit with the balance on completion of the build (usually 10 days).
Sorry - this isn't helping your friend, but if they need a rebuild I'd suggest they get a quote against an approved design with fixed deadlines for completion.

As for Small Claims - I'd suggest your friend gets some CAB advice first. I took a car dealer to Small Claims and won, but it cost me £250 in upfront fees. If your friend doesn't have a clear cut case they may be burning more money. A CAB solicitor should be able to review the evidence in the email and recommend whether to proceed or not.

 

[RBS]

@ Robcctv - Because 1000's of free wordpress themes out there, does not mean every theme is going to be free. I charge to create custom wp themes and they take time and are one offs.
There are lots of websites that sell wordpress templates, there is a market to sell them. It just depends on the users needs and what their budget is.

£1200 for a wp theme is excessive tho, unless it has something unique that another theme won't have, but £500-600 is about fair for a wp theme

No point to buy template online, because there are thousands(!) free, so, you will definitely find something that suits you. Unless you need something VERY specific.

500£ for WP theme? A bit too much IMO. You can get bespoke designed websites A to Z for that money.

 

[Faevilangel]

No point to buy template online, because there are thousands(!) free, so, you will definitely find something that suits you. Unless you need something VERY specific.

500£ for WP theme? A bit too much IMO. You can get bespoke designed websites A to Z for that money.

I find most of the free themes are blogging based, and not cms orientated. Most businesses realise having a unique template is the way to go.

£500 is about right, how long do you think it takes to design, build and integrate a wp theme?
I charge £250-£400 depending on the theme, but have known them go way higher.

My point is because the sofware is free, doesn't mean a web developer is going to build you a theme for free. Time is money.
Most of the free themes are of a poor quality in regards to the coding and design. A lot of the big cms' are free, drupal, joomla, wordpress and there are thousands of free themes, but there is a huge market for unique paid themes. Look at http://www.themeforest.net

 

[RBS]

I find most of the free themes are blogging based, and not cms orientated.

Most of the free themes are of a poor quality in regards to the coding and design.

Come on I understand you as well, you must make money and free stuff isn`t bringing you more customers

 

[Faevilangel]

Come on I understand you as well, you must make money and free stuff isn`t bringing you more customers

Free stuff has made websites cheaper (in my opinion) as instead of paying £4000 for a cms, so they can edit their site, or pay a man per hour to do edits, they can do it all themselves. They just hire a local designer to do the design and set them up.

Open source has changed the way designers work and charge

 

[PhilBen]

There are golden rules. Always check portfolio and even contact a couple of companies from the list. Always ask as much about the company as possible.Also check about how good the web design company is at SEO. A great looking website that has no hits is a waste of time and money.

 

[Drn55]

The worst bit was - you couldn't access the e-mail! So we could not retrieve enquiries. A year down the line, the designer is still running away - i just want him to hand over the site, but he keeps running.

Setting up email accounts is not really your web designers job. Sure, they may do it for you, but email accounts have nothing whatsoever to do with web design. If you hire a new employee, do you go back to your web designer and ask them to log into your hosting control panel for you and spend 30 seconds setting up a new email account?

 

[Hillyer]

Why wasn't there a contract?

 

[lww]

It's a LTD company, I know the owner was having difficulties so gave him till february till pay, and now I can't contact him at all.

Unfortunately your generosity has probably plonked you to the bottom of the pile. A debt is a debt, and yours is as good as anyone else's - get it whilst you still have a chance.

I am going to send an invoice to his e-mail and to his address, and then see what happens

Make sure you send the letter by Recorded Delivery. I would also check Companies House to see if he's filed accounts.

 

[lss]

I agree with you mate.

There are three things to ask when outsourcing projects.
1. Portfolio/Samples
2. References
3, Non Disclosure Agreement.

We always provide that to our clients, it helps them to decide. If your friend is still looking we can definitely help you out.

You mention non disclosure agreement, just wondering if you could add a bit more detail to what this might cover please

 

[Hillyer]

It would probably protect your client's idea or information???

 

[Lasting Designs]

There are golden rules. Always check portfolio and even contact a couple of companies from the list. Always ask as much about the company as possible.Also check about how good the web design company is at SEO. A great looking website that has no hits is a waste of time and money.

SEO and web-design are two different things, a website with no hits isn't the designers fault, there are many reasons for this that have diddly squit to do with design. I know of at least 2 very good SEO peeps who know nothing about design.

 

[SparkCreative]

Conversely, you often get very nicely coded and optimised sites that look like crap. Because many web designers actually have no training whatsoever in design.