Bad references

[Wonball5]

Hi I'm not sure where I should put this.

I recently was working with young people in care but after my 3 month review I lost the job, mainly because I was called lazy which was untrue but did not argue the case as was not enjoying working for the company.

Since then I have applied for two jobs within the care industry and for both companies I had previously worked.

Now one of the bosses contacted me to inform me that he was unable to offer me something because of the bad reference he had received from my previous job.

He read the email out.

It stated I had signed jobs in the house to be done and in fact I had not done the jobs, these jobs could be car checks or fire checks.
I was lazy and did not participate in any of the cleaning of the house.
It also mentioned I had made a comment in front of a young person stating that I looked at a women walking along the road and called her fit.
All of the above was untrue and all I can think of was someone within the company obviously had a problem with me.

Now as of course now I can't get a job working with young people because of the reference I was wondering where I stood. I don't have the money to get legal advice although I feel I am being treated very unfairly on this.

 

[NorthernShawn]

Sorry to hear about this, Wonball5. I hope you're able to find a job soon and get things back on track.

 

[Richie N]

Employers are not allowed to give bad references. I would contact ACAS www.acas.org.uk
They may be able to advise on this situation.
However, you are probably best trying to obtain references from referees that you provide so it doesn't happen again.
I don't think you will be able stop them to be honest and if you wanted to, it will probably cost you money with a solicitor.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Employers are not allowed to give bad references.

Employers can give bad references, they just can't give unfair references.

Jackson v Liverpool City Council is an authority on this matter - a reference included remarks on allegations that had not even been tested (investigated) by the ex-employer, but this was not found to be unfair.

The best option for the OP is to speak to the old employer, try to clear up why they're saying what they are, and get them to issue a more positive reference for the future.



Karl Limpert

 

[Montaigne]

or not use them for a reference?

 

[Ashley_Price]

Employers are not allowed to give bad references

That is one of those common misconceptions. As long as the employer has evidence to back up their comments, then a bad reference is perfectly allowable.

From what you said, it sounds like you were given the chance to have your say "but did not argue the case as was not enjoying working for the company". As an employer myself, this flashes up in my mind that if you didn't enjoy working for the company and you didn't want to defend yourself then maybe the reasons why you were fired are not entirely untrue.

Maybe they could see you weren't doing the job to the standard required precisely because you didn't enjoy working for them.

I suggest if you go to further interviews you are honest and open about the problems you had in your previous position. If the job you are applying for is significantly different then it shouldn't have such a greater effect on your changes, if you explain your side first.

I had similar situation when I was employed. I got fired from a job and the company were giving bad references. I started to explain to future employers that I had been sacked from my job because I refused to do duties given to me by my supervisor. These duties included cleaning down a machine, while it was in operation. This was extremely dangerous as the machine had several cutting blades moving at high speed... and just the day before they had an accident where another employee had lost two fingers precisely because they were cleaning down the machine while it was going (after being told to do it by a supervisor).

 

[Montaigne]

From what you said, it sounds like you were given the chance to have your say "but did not argue the case as was not enjoying working for the company". As an employer myself, this flashes up in my mind that if you didn't enjoy working for the company and you didn't want to defend yourself then maybe the reasons why you were fired are not entirely untrue.

or the OP didn't see the point in getting into a long drawn out argument that he couldn't afford to prosecute anyway so cut his losses.

 

[Ashley_Price]

or the OP didn't see the point in getting into a long drawn out argument that he couldn't afford to prosecute anyway so cut his losses.

Hardly "cut his losses" when it is now affecting their chance to get future work. Some companies insist on a reference from your most recent employers.

 

[Montaigne]

Hardly "cut his losses" when it is now affecting their chance to get future work. Some companies insist on a reference from your most recent employers.

Hindsight is great!

At the time it probably seemed like a good idea. Add to this how unlikely it will be that a careworker is going to be fully aware of their legal rights at the time of the termination, or who has the wherewithal and/or financial clout to actively seek resolution to a problem which in all fairness is unlikely to go anywhere anyway; not doing anything about it probably seemed the wisest decision.

If you factor in the number of actual employers on here whose attitude to employees, in similar threads to these, is that they should be lucky they had a job, how they should be glad they only got a bad reference and not a kick up the arse etc etc and is there any wonder the OP didn't do anything about it.

The reason I put up that initial comment however was to act as a counterbalance to your point, but where both points are pure supposition and so equally invalid.

 

[Montaigne]

Be honest, how many end of probation meetings where an employer has decided to terminate an employee's employment with them, do you think get turned around by the employee arguing their case?

 

[Richie N]

Employers can give bad references, they just can't give unfair references.


Karl Limpert

Sorry, when I meant bad, I meant as in what has been said is untrue, as the OP stated the comments were not true.
As you pointed out though, I should have said unfair rather than bad.

 

[iArtist]

Be honest, how many end of probation meetings where an employer has decided to terminate an employee's employment with them, do you think get turned around by the employee arguing their case?

Well if 'Got to dance' is anything to go by, quite a few

I had to let go of a lazy employee once after probation period and I told him througout the time he was there what'd happen if things didn't change. He was a lovely lovely bloke though and we remained mates afterwards, he just couldn't cut the mustard on the job which was a shame and he agreed with my findings...couldn't really argue them.

Another (woman this time) I let go after her probabtion period because it became clear the skills she claimed she had on her CV were complete fabrication and she was not cut-out for the job employed to do..though was given training, support and every opportunity to improve.

She wasn't so happy but again couldn't argue when confronted with her CV and a request to do one of the things she claimed she could do re it!

Employers do not want to lose an employee, it is a major hassle and expense advertising for new staff. Going through applications, interviewing, training new staff, inductions...more probation etc..... It is a BIG deal when after 3 months it is clear a mistake was made and that person is not cut out for the job.

On that basis I would say it is rare for an employer to (for no good reason) let go of any member of staff.

 

[bwglaw]

Sorry, when I meant bad, I meant as in what has been said is untrue, as the OP stated the comments were not true.
As you pointed out though, I should have said unfair rather than bad.

Any reference provided by the employer must be objectively fair and the employer can provide any information that he believes to be correct and must give it without malice.

The employer has a duty to take reasonable care but there is no duty to give a full and comprehensive reference nor refer to all material facts during the course of your employment.

I think the best course of action is to discuss this with the employer, or use an alternative referee.

 

[FirstAidTraining]

It stated I had signed jobs in the house to be done and in fact I had not done the jobs, these jobs could be car checks or fire checks.
I was lazy and did not participate in any of the cleaning of the house.
It also mentioned I had made a comment in front of a young person stating that I looked at a women walking along the road and called her fit.
All of the above was untrue and all I can think of was someone within the company obviously had a problem with me.

Was your probabtion period three months? In care, job offers subject to 6 months probation is the norm. As part of your probation, you should have had - roughly speaking - a review at the end of your first week, then at the end of the first month, then usually the third month, then the 5th.
I've never come across a situation in a care setting where you were left to get on your merry way for three months, then told you were not up to the job and fired!
Did you have supervision with your line manager? During your probation period, the milestones you were to hit should have been linked to your supervision process. Were any issues identified in your supervision?
Unless you were working for a badly run and badly managed organisation, what you say happened - and I am not disputing the accuracy of your account - is most unusual.
As to the content of references, I have had to write references that were not good. But they were accurate, truthful and fair, and I could prove the content with disciplinary records, supervision notes and staff appraisals should the content have been disputed.

 

[woodss]

I've been fired before. I was annoyed at the world at the time due to some personal issues that dragged me right down to the bottom of the barrel, but actually ... being honest to myself ..... I wouldn't have hired me at that point in time, and it gave me a kick up the backside to sort myself out.

As it stands, I now speak to my ex-employer, have apologised for being an a*** and hope to one day have a mutually beneficial business relationship with him.

Sometimes you cannot blame anyone else other than yourself - you were crap at your job because you basically couldn't be bothered. You got "let go", and your employer see's you as a lazy git, only doing enough (maybe?) to get by instead of putting in the effort.

Perhaps ring over and apologise for letting him and his company down, rebuild the bridges - then he might not have such a problem putting in a good word for you. You're essentially asking someone that spent a fortune on you while you let him down to do you a favour. Would you?

 

[iArtist]

Perhaps ring over and apologise for letting him and his company down, rebuild the bridges - then he might not have such a problem putting in a good word for you. You're essentially asking someone that spent a fortune on you while you let him down to do you a favour. Would you?

Very good advice.

 

[FirstAidTraining]

Perhaps ring over and apologise for letting him and his company down, rebuild the bridges - then he might not have such a problem putting in a good word for you.

In what sense? How can an employer, who found someones work to be below par, and subsequently sacked them, then put in a 'good word' for them, just because he phoned up later and apologised for not doing the job he was employed to do in the first place?

 

[I Love Spreadsheets]

That is one of those common misconceptions. As long as the employer has evidence to back up their comments, then a bad reference is perfectly allowable.

Very true, however I believe a lot of companies dont bother to give bad references because of all the potential problems e.g. they may be called in to court to provide proof to back up their claims. Why risk having to spend more company time on a bad employee that you have just got rid of

I have worked for a few companies that would only give average to brilliant references if the person deserved them, however if they deserved a bad reference they would just refuse to give one at all.

 

[Montaigne]

Well if 'Got to dance' is anything to go by, quite a few

I had to let go of a lazy employee once after probation period and I told him througout the time he was there what'd happen if things didn't change. He was a lovely lovely bloke though and we remained mates afterwards, he just couldn't cut the mustard on the job which was a shame and he agreed with my findings...couldn't really argue them.

Another (woman this time) I let go after her probabtion period because it became clear the skills she claimed she had on her CV were complete fabrication and she was not cut-out for the job employed to do..though was given training, support and every opportunity to improve.

She wasn't so happy but again couldn't argue when confronted with her CV and a request to do one of the things she claimed she could do re it!

Employers do not want to lose an employee, it is a major hassle and expense advertising for new staff. Going through applications, interviewing, training new staff, inductions...more probation etc..... It is a BIG deal when after 3 months it is clear a mistake was made and that person is not cut out for the job.

On that basis I would say it is rare for an employer to (for no good reason) let go of any member of staff.

So you agree with me?

 

[Montaigne]

These threads from employees always go the same way. An employee asks for some advice about a particular issue and without any further information on here people automatically assume they must have been at fault and then give advice based on their perceived guilt. Why can't anyone simply answer the question asked?

 

[iArtist]

So you agree with me?

absolutely

 

[iArtist]

These threads from employees always go the same way. An employee asks for some advice about a particular issue and without any further information on here people automatically assume they must have been at fault and then give advice based on their perceived guilt. Why can't anyone simply answer the question asked?

Your advice was 'don't ask them for a reference' ?? lol

Meanwhile they are guilty...........off with their heads !!

 

[Montaigne]

absolutely

Awesome! Things can get unnecessarily combative on the forum and I'm glad I took a step back from this one and just asked lol

 

[woodss]

In what sense? How can an employer, who found someones work to be below par, and subsequently sacked them, then put in a 'good word' for them, just because he phoned up later and apologised for not doing the job he was employed to do in the first place?

I'm not saying he should put a good word in, just that he might not put in a bad word if he has received an apology and/or explanation for the reasons why the employee was behaving badly. Sometimes people are just in a bad place, should their entire career be jeopardised because they couldn't put the effort in at work during this time?

Example:
Me, I lost a child. She didn't die, she got DNA'd and was subsequently found to belong to someone else who my partner cheated on me with. C'est la vie.

Could I talk to my employer about this? No, not really. Did it screw me up at work? You bet!! And I got fired because I was crap at work!

Should it have cost me my career as well? Hell no - I'm in a good place right now but damn... close call

I'm sure there are some who think that a person shouldn't bring their problems to work but hey ... if you want robots, start manufacturing

 

[iArtist]

I'm not saying he should put a good word in, just that he might not put in a bad word if he has received an apology and/or explanation for the reasons why the employee was behaving badly. Sometimes people are just in a bad place, should their entire career be jeopardised because they couldn't put the effort in at work during this time?

Example:
Me, I lost a child. She didn't die, she got DNA'd and was subsequently found to belong to someone else who my partner cheated on me with. C'est la vie.

Could I talk to my employer about this? No, not really. Did it screw me up at work? You bet!! And I got fired because I was crap at work!

Should it have cost me my career as well? Hell no - I'm in a good place right now but damn... close call

I'm sure there are some who think that a person shouldn't bring their problems to work but hey ... if you want robots, start manufacturing

This is terribly sad and I am glad to hear you're in a better place now.

I know when I worked as a Manager in the NHS we'd have our fair share of patients go off the wall now and then and after calming them there was always some horrid traumatic trigger that they'd brought with them to the surgery. Having to 'function' in the real world when our personal world has fallen apart and is in the process of falling apart is massively tough and like you say, we're not robots. Those stressors stay with us when they're that fresh and traumatic.

An understanding boss etc. would I hope take these things into account and if not the new prospective employer would. Sadly though some people are hard as nails.

I recall trying to passify a cross member of staff after a patient was mildly aggressive (verbally) with her. After I'd resolved the situation I learned the patient had just crashed her car on the way to the pharmacy to collect her terminally ill mother's medicine. She was then due to see us and was thus running late..she couldn't get through to us as she was dialling the wrong number but all the time thought we weren't answering the phone. So she was very upset and cross at us. I tried to get my staff to see it wasn't personal and the reaction while not nice was understandable. The reply I got?

"So..that's no excuse...'

Some people eh!

 

[WJP]

if they deserved a bad reference they would just refuse to give one at all.

I've had this when I've requested a reference before - the ex-employer simply sent one back confirming their job title and dates of service. When I called them to ask why the lack of detail, it turned out that the candidate was a bit of a handful but they hadn't wanted to risk anything by giving them an entirely (in their opinion) honest reference. So they opted for that approach.

 

[FirstAidTraining]

I'm not saying he should put a good word in, just that he might not put in a bad word if he has received an apology and/or explanation for the reasons why the employee was behaving badly. Sometimes people are just in a bad place, should their entire career be jeopardised because they couldn't put the effort in at work during this time?

I'm sure there are some who think that a person shouldn't bring their problems to work but hey ... if you want robots, start manufacturing

References usually ask very specific questions relating to areas of performance identified throught the job description and person specification.
It's not as simple as not putting in a bad word, rather than a good word, when answering very detailed and specific questions, evidenced with examples.
People do indeed get into bad places as you put it, and this can directly affect their performance. But this should be picked up by their line manager, supervisor, and dealt with. This could be by way of informal or formal support structures, extra training, flexi working, time off, whatever, it's part of the manager/supervisiors job to pick up and deal with these things, because people aren't robots. But there is only so much can be done for someone - the rest is up to them. Ringing up to explain after the event is a bit late I think!
That's why I asked the OP what supervision and apprails did they receive during their time there and what formal feedback did they have on their progress during probabtion. I'm extremely familiar with the residential care set up, and, as I pointed out, what the OP described is not something I've experienced in either the NHS, the private or the charity sector.