Armaggedon on the High Street

[emmylou74]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...years-unstoppable-rise-internet-shopping.html

I feel like my high street that I am on will be lucky if its here this time next year. The reduction in footfall has been spectacular. And when you do get people in the shop its showrooming or looking for free advice. I know in another thread it was mentioned a good salesman could turn these people into shoppers - but not where I am. I have also heard that internet shopping does not effect the shops, yet I can only go on my own experiance and the much older generations come in and say I just get that online now.

It does sadden me because I love retail and I love shops and I love creating a shop that is a little different. But for me its onwards and upwards and I need to change my retail strategy to stay in business. But I will always feel a little sad for the loss of the little unique shops.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

If B&M shops really do all disappear it will be very much mourned by everybody - look what happened when Woolies went bust, everyone was shocked, disappointed, exclaimed how much they'd loved Woolies, how they would be bereft now it's gone, wherre would they go for all their purchases etc .... an outpouring of national grief almost.
Of course, had it been true that everybody loved Woolies enough to shop regularly there, they wouldn't have gone bust.
As a B&M retailer I know only too well how tough it is: we have to work really hard at keeping any level of footfall. We don't sell online and don't intend to, our focus is on getting people in to our shop and we do this by offering classes, workshops, demo-days, kids craft activities etc - people HAVE to physically attend our premises in order to take part.
We are getting more people into the shop now who attend the workshops but actively avoid looking at the beautiful things we sell as they don't want to be tempted to spend - what can you do about that? People simply don't have the spare cash that they did a few years ago - sadly, I don't see it getting any better for the foreseeable. Very worrying.

 

[Esk247]

I find it's the bills and costs that are the nightmare. You can adjust stock levels depending on customers e.g. less customers, less stock sold, buy less stock next month as you have some left over.

Bills though...they're getting silly...BT, Card Services, Insurance, Rent, Rates, Services (water, gas etc), Postage costs (if you're selling online as well as in-store and offer free postage which we did until recently).

Rent's the big one of course. Quarterly in advance in a lot of cases and upward only so your turnover is going down but your rent is going up every few years.

Around here there is now NO free parking at all, for anyone. Everyone now pays a minimum of £1.50 per hour and they've changed the waiting bays from 40 minutes to 10 minutes so people can't even pop in to a shop now, there's not enough time. Even our vans are being ticketed when collecting stock so we are fighting the parking enforcement people today over a £70 fine for parking outside our building in a van which has our logo on the side of it!

 

[Mister B]

It's a really tough one for small independents.

That being said I still believe that you cover a niche market and box clever success is still achievable. Especially if you're in a town that has a forward thinking council, (rare I know,) and some other like minded retailers.

We spent the weekend in Skipton and were amazed at how busy it was. For sure there were lots of tourists but also lots of locals. And it was the independents that were busy, especially places like the bakers. There were a fair few independents all offering a unique product/service and by the look of it doing well as well.

Mister B

 

[Lunazzurra]

We've just our worst EVER Bank Holiday weekend in over 5 years trading! Footfall outside the shop has been incredibly high and plenty of people looking in the windows - but actually getting them in the shop has been an entirely different matter.

I'm not sure what it's coming to - I regularly have to stop 2 or 3 people a day now trying to take pictures of a 25p or 40p postcard because they say they can't afford to buy one! I even had a mum tell her sixish year old daughter that she couldn't afford to buy 2 postcards so she would have to choose who she sent it to:- Grandma or Daddy - can you believe that?! What a choice to enforce a six year old to make.

Many traders around us are saying that they are 50% down on last year it's difficult for us to compare because we moved premises at the start of the year - but it doesn't look good or encouraging at the moment I must say.

 

[TotallySport]

It's a really tough one for small independents.

That being said I still believe that you cover a niche market and box clever success is still achievable. Especially if you're in a town that has a forward thinking council, (rare I know,) and some other like minded retailers.

We spent the weekend in Skipton and were amazed at how busy it was. For sure there were lots of tourists but also lots of locals. And it was the independents that were busy, especially places like the bakers. There were a fair few independents all offering a unique product/service and by the look of it doing well as well.

Mister B

Nothing like Buzzie lizzies, while watching the canal, yum yum

 

[NotFromBolton]

Business expenses and parking charges are definitely a big factor in the problems the high street is facing as well as the dreaded internet. Parking charges, rent and rates are all out of the control of retailers but the internet isn't.

It's obviously tough out there of that there is little doubt but there is plenty of opportunities for retailers to use the internet to drive footfall at a minimal cost.

What surprises me is that so few actually bother.

 

[Lunazzurra]

It's obviously tough out there of that there is little doubt but there is plenty of opportunities for retailers to use the internet to drive footfall at a minimal cost.

What surprises me is that so few actually bother.

Totally agree with that - we've always had a website to support and promote our B&M shop. It costs us less than £200 a year to run with domain names, email addresses and webiste hosting so it seems silly for any business NOT to have a website these days.

Problem is, that, despite spending hundreds or even thousands of pounds promoting our e-commerce website in the past, sales via the internet have always proved minimal and now virtually non-existent.

I can't help wondering if the current hype for organisations saying that online spending is increasing is that they have some serious vested self-interest in saying so. Professor Joshua Bamfield from the OP's original link says online sales account for 12.7% of the market, the ONS's latest figure is just over 9%, and a report last month (I believe it was Newsnight but don't quote me) said it was 5.8% (including onliner grocery deliveries).

Yes, I agree that it is now easier and perhaps the preferred method for some to book air flights, hotels, holidays, cinema/theatre tickets etc. etc. online. But for the rest of retail? I think by far the majority of people still prefer to 'go shopping'.

Also, in our shop, we try to promote our website at every opportunity and have always found an element of resistance to online sales in this country. We get comments ranging from "Haven't got a computer." to "Don't trust it. No one's having my card details." and "I'm not paying for carriage."

Surprisingly, when we have had internet sales, they've very often been from USA and Hungary (despite the enormous carriage costs). Don't ask me why - just have. Maybe we're not as far forward in this country as we think we might be.

 

[emmylou74]

Business expenses and parking charges are definitely a big factor in the problems the high street is facing as well as the dreaded internet. Parking charges, rent and rates are all out of the control of retailers but the internet isn't.

It's obviously tough out there of that there is little doubt but there is plenty of opportunities for retailers to use the internet to drive footfall at a minimal cost.

What surprises me is that so few actually bother.

the problem is when you have your suppliers/manufacturers also selling online at wholesale or sometimes below with free shipping. It means its not viable to sell online then. And more and more of them are doing that.

 

[PrestonLad]

the problem is when you have your suppliers/manufacturers also selling online at wholesale or sometimes below with free shipping. It means its not viable to sell online then. And more and more of them are doing that.

To be fair, NotFromBolton suggested that B&Ms should use the internet to drive footfall. He/she didn't talk about online sales. Social networks and all that. I've seen a coffee shop do really well out of using the internet - and although it isn't quite retail, they certainly don't sell anything online.

 

[Philip Hoyle]

Local councils with their anti-car mentality (high car park charges, pedestrianisation, one way systems, traffic calming, etc), are a reason why so many people have been driven to out-of-town shopping and the internet instead of town centres.

I hate to say it as I know it sounds horrid, but time and time again when I venture into the town centre, there are two types of people - OAPs and chavs, and, sadly, the remaining shops clearly cater for those groups. I think this is because it's those groups who are more likely to use public transport or walk to town.

When I go to the retail parks and supermarkets with their own, free, car parks, I see workers, families, etc., who have driven to do their shopping.

The councils need a rocket up their bums to start being car friendly before the town centres are lost forever.

 

[Esk247]

Every business should have a website. It doesn't have to sell anything, it just has to list the products you have in stock and your opening times.

Hint: opening times folks! Was travelling around the dales last weekend and for the life of me I couldn't find any pub or restaurant or hotel or shop that had opening times or which days they were open. It was a real nightmare on a Sunday trying to find out which places were open or what they actually sold.

 

[warnie]

We've just our worst EVER Bank Holiday weekend in over 5 years trading! Footfall outside the shop has been incredibly high and plenty of people looking in the windows - but actually getting them in the shop has been an entirely different matter.

I'm not sure what it's coming to - I regularly have to stop 2 or 3 people a day now trying to take pictures of a 25p or 40p postcard because they say they can't afford to buy one! I even had a mum tell her sixish year old daughter that she couldn't afford to buy 2 postcards so she would have to choose who she sent it to:- Grandma or Daddy - can you believe that?! What a choice to enforce a six year old to make.

Many traders around us are saying that they are 50% down on last year it's difficult for us to compare because we moved premises at the start of the year - but it doesn't look good or encouraging at the moment I must say.

We too have just had our worst bank holiday ever

The last 2 weeks have been slightly down on last year after a great start to the year, and this week has started of even worse. Today has been terrible. It's rained all day long and there is just hardly anyone venturing out. Were not on the high street thank god, so you can just drive up and park right outside our row of shops for free, so even that's not the issue.

Got to admit though there's no way I'd be going out if I wasn't running this place!

Just to add we've sold a grand total of 3 Ice creams today and 6 slush puppies! rubbish I know but it's 100% more than I thought I'd sell

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

We do have a website (not an ecommerce one) which gives lots of information about our shop; it never ceases to amaze me how many people come across our site and although we don't sell online, I have had people from the USA contact me asking for advice about products - one lady phoned from Canada to talk to me about glass painting and wanted to buy from me even though the products we stock are available globally.
She spent over £40 (plus the postage) as a result of one conversation with me in which I talked through a couple of techniques that I like to use ... I'm sure she could have bought the same stuff for less if she'd looked around, but she was very happy. She even emailed me some pics of what she'd used them for!
We've had people contact us from Ireland for hand painted toy boxes as a result of finding images of our work on Google!

 

[Talay]

I've done a Marks & Sparks and given up on the High Street after 12 months of looking for the right thing.

Daft rent, dafter rates, stupid landlords (corporate ones) and finally the lunacy of a Council which has jacked up parking by up to 60% and removed the 15 min and 30 min options plus installed meters in the one place there were none (previously 1 hour free, no return within 2 etc.).

I'm actually talking to the council to see whether the supposedly relaxed planning laws will allow us to open a "service village" with people operating from semi industrial units and even from some residential homes' outbuildings.

Why ? because only bending rules, pushing boundaries and thinking outside the box is going to work going forward. The net isn't going to save everyone and it will kill off more than it will make for sure but the race to the bottom is well under way and there is nothing we can do to stop it head on.

If there is not a complete rethink, a reboot of the rent / rates argument to be precise, then the whole idea of a small retail High Street is over.

 

[Esk247]

I wrongly assumed that the change to landlords having to pay out, even when a shop was empty, would push more landlords to accept rents at 'market rate'...they don't..they just land bank still.

It's regular thing on this forum to here people bang on about "the market will set its own rate and rent will come down"...err..no it won't. The rents are going UP despite more shops being empty because for some reason, unknown to myself and it seems many others, landlords would rather a shop boarded up, empty and at risk of vandalism than dare to risk dropping the rent just a tad for 6 months.

We were looking at another place yesterday and the rent is daft o clock. No room to negotiate at all. We tried that one, buyers market and all that..HA..no uncertain terms, you pay the ridiculous rent, quarterly in advance or bye bye get out of my shop and don't bother coming back.

 

[Deleted member 162294]

Saw this on another thread.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/secrets-of-your-missing-mail-video

 

[Duke Fame]

I think the problem is threefold and it needs a bold step from both central government and local council.

Business rates are effin daft. They've gone up at a mad rate in the past 15 years and government whilst demand for the high street wares has fallen, the government has just been greedy in taxing the taxpayer that doesn't get a vote. Whilst the coalition have at least paid lip service to the problem, they need to realise a change is needed.

For rates, there appears two options:

Remove rates and put VAT up.

Remove rates and put a local corporation tax into the tax pot.

Local authorities need to stop being so self-important, get rid of all the 'business' staff they employ, these people are really just the willing unemployable and we're better off with lower local tax and get rid of the waste. They need to cut faster not slower.

LA's need to stop the continual hiking of car park charges, again, it's not the 'cuts' pushing their costs up, it's the continual wasteful spending.

 

[Nuno]

I wrongly assumed that the change to landlords having to pay out, even when a shop was empty, would push more landlords to accept rents at 'market rate'...they don't..they just land bank still.

It's regular thing on this forum to here people bang on about "the market will set its own rate and rent will come down"...err..no it won't. The rents are going UP despite more shops being empty because for some reason, unknown to myself and it seems many others, landlords would rather a shop boarded up, empty and at risk of vandalism than dare to risk dropping the rent just a tad for 6 months.

We were looking at another place yesterday and the rent is daft o clock. No room to negotiate at all. We tried that one, buyers market and all that..HA..no uncertain terms, you pay the ridiculous rent, quarterly in advance or bye bye get out of my shop and don't bother coming back.

One reason is that a lot of the property is owned by large groups, from the size of British Land down.
Not only do they want to avoid setting precedent for lower rents they also have to stay within their covenants on the money they have borrowed. This covenants can specify that rental values cannot fall more than x%.
If the covenant is broken the loan gets pulled.
(If the loan gets pulled some of them will go tits up. The banks will catch a cold, and the banks will fail to meet the conditions of their covenants and their loans will be pulled*. Some of them will go tits up. Armageddon --outa here...)

*Yes I know this is nearly fiction.

 

[PrestonLad]

Saw this on another thread.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/secrets-of-your-missing-mail-video

I think I know why you might have put this on this thread... but a bit random.

Worth watching though! (less than 2 minute video)

 

[Duke Fame]

I wrongly assumed that the change to landlords having to pay out, even when a shop was empty, would push more landlords to accept rents at 'market rate'...they don't..they just land bank still.

It's regular thing on this forum to here people bang on about "the market will set its own rate and rent will come down"...err..no it won't. The rents are going UP despite more shops being empty because for some reason, unknown to myself and it seems many others, landlords would rather a shop boarded up, empty and at risk of vandalism than dare to risk dropping the rent just a tad for 6 months.

We were looking at another place yesterday and the rent is daft o clock. No room to negotiate at all. We tried that one, buyers market and all that..HA..no uncertain terms, you pay the ridiculous rent, quarterly in advance or bye bye get out of my shop and don't bother coming back.

Not so much in the town centre but in the suburbs, I think charity shops skew the market. Whilst a proper business is looking at £10k rent, £6k rates and staff, charity shops only have the rent to pay and push up the price. A landlord is better off getting £11k from a charity with it's guaranteed rent than a £10k from a start up who is struggling to pay rent & rates.

I think the govt should tax the charities.

 

[David1962]

. No room to negotiate at all. We tried that one, buyers market and all that..HA..no uncertain terms, you pay the ridiculous rent, quarterly in advance or bye bye get out of my shop and don't bother coming back.

Look at it from the Landlords point of view, what are you saying to them by trying to haggle a couple of grand off the annual rent? Are you not telling them that your business is on a knife edge? I would imagine Landlords are not interesting in letting to businesses that work on such tight margins, better off waiting for a reliable tenant with a more viable business to come along.

Also, and this may be alien to many retailers, Landlords are obviously a bit wiser and not playing the "race to the bottom" game with rents, which in the end would destroy not only their businesses but also the High Street further still.

 

[Nuno]

Look at it from the Landlords point of view, what are you saying to them by trying to haggle a couple of grand off the annual rent? Are you not telling them that your business is on a knife edge? I would imagine Landlords are not interesting in letting to businesses that work on such tight margins, better off waiting for a reliable tenant with a more viable business to come along.

Also, and this may be alien to many retailers, Landlords are obviously a bit wiser and not playing the "race to the bottom" game with rents, which in the end would destroy not only their businesses but also the High Street further still.

'Haggling' about rent is also called 'negotiation'. Negotiating when circumstances merit it, (for instance when there is an oversupply, as now), is more an indicator of a business run by someone financially astute, and thus more likely to stay in business.

And if landlords think there has not being a fundamental change in the high street dynamic, caused by out of town retail parks, shopping malls and the internet I suggest they are being blind to reality.

 

[David1962]

'Haggling' about rent is also called 'negotiation'. Negotiating when circumstances merit it, (for instance when there is an oversupply, as now), is more an indicator of a business run by someone financially astute, and thus more likely to stay in business.

And if landlords think there has not being a fundamental change in the high street dynamic, caused by out of town retail parks, shopping malls and the internet I suggest they are being blind to reality.

And yet commercial rents still haven't fallen.

Reckon they can afford to play the longer more profitable game. It only seems to be the retail sector mindset that thinks business is all about having the lowest price. Started by the chains, copied by many independents and the holy grail of internet retail. You simply don't get this race to be the cheapest in other industries.

 

[Nuno]

And yet commercial rents still haven't fallen.

Reckon they can afford to play the longer more profitable game. It only seems to be the retail sector mindset that thinks business is all about having the lowest price. Started by the chains, copied by many independents and the holy grail of internet retail. You simply don't get this race to be the cheapest in other industries.

Really? Commercial Rents haven't fallen? Try Googling 'fall commercial rents uk' filtered for the last year.

I'm rather dubious about your assertion that only Retail is concerned with the lowest price. Are you saying manufacturers don't try and source inputs at the lowest price? Will traders buy shares at any price regardless of how it affects their margins?
I think it is very different. An effective oligopoly of high street landlords has seen their ability to charge high rents eroded by (as said before) retail parks, malls and the internet. They will obviously fight this but they will lose. It's another iteration of the old truism: "They can ignore economics but economics won't ignore them".

 

[David1962]

Really? Commercial Rents haven't fallen? Try Googling 'fall commercial rents uk' filtered for the last year.

I'm rather dubious about your assertion that only Retail is concerned with the lowest price. Are you saying manufacturers don't try and source inputs at the lowest price? Will traders buy shares at any price regardless of how it affects their margins?
I think it is very different. An effective oligopoly of high street landlords has seen their ability to charge high rents eroded by (as said before) retail parks, malls and the internet. They will obviously fight this but they will lose. It's another iteration of the old truism: "They can ignore economics but economics won't ignore them".

Well I haven't seen any big drops in shop unit rents, no doubt some have but generally, and as Esk said, they haven't.

Most other industries sell on service, product, quality and value. Most retailers sell on cheapest price alone.

When you are buying broadband, hiring a cleaner or gardner, booking a holiday, buying insurance, appointing an estate agent or buying jewellery do you only go on price? Do these businesses operate solely by being cheapest? I think not, very often the price is way down the list of considerations. Look in 90% of shop windows and all they advertise is the price.

 

[Nuno]

And your points are?

Because you and Esk have local, anecdotal knowledge of rents not falling this is therefore true of the rest of the country?

Because some sectors are not entirely price driven that landlords can be too? That's a sidetrack. Rent in premium spots, (Bond Street, The City etc) are driven by more than price alone, yes. But overall, rents are determined by supply and demand. This will be affected by local conditions, the banking arrangements of the landlords, the costs of remaining empty and other factors, but the single, overriding determinant will be price, which is governed by supply and demand.

I'm not arguing that this is a simplistic or perfect market, just that overall, as a global picture, if demand goes down and supply stays the same then price will go down. As it is.

(And price is not only measured in £/sq foot. Honeymoon periods, F&F deals, no upward only clauses, more frequent break clauses all effectively lower price, and are common.)

 

[Duke Fame]

Well I haven't seen any big drops in shop unit rents, no doubt some have but generally, and as Esk said, they haven't.

Most other industries sell on service, product, quality and value. Most retailers sell on cheapest price alone.

When you are buying broadband, hiring a cleaner or gardner, booking a holiday, buying insurance, appointing an estate agent or buying jewellery do you only go on price? Do these businesses operate solely by being cheapest? I think not, very often the price is way down the list of considerations. Look in 90% of shop windows and all they advertise is the price.

Commercial rents are falling be it in retail or on the industrial market. They will continue to fall until landlords start transferring occupancy to residential and reduce the availability.

Even in the likes of the Trafford / Metro / Meadowhell centres, rents have tumbled.

The bootom line for retailers is that if the most pessimistic sales forecasts don't clear the sum of the rent and rates + utilities & wages, walk away and do something else.

Landlords are working on the fears of new indy's. The worry that the chance of that perfect shop is going is making naive would be retailers pay top whack.

 

[kelvin1950]

Look at it from the Landlords point of view, what are you saying to them by trying to haggle a couple of grand off the annual rent? Are you not telling them that your business is on a knife edge? I would imagine Landlords are not interesting in letting to businesses that work on such tight margins, better off waiting for a reliable tenant with a more viable business to come along.

Also, and this may be alien to many retailers, Landlords are obviously a bit wiser and not playing the "race to the bottom" game with rents, which in the end would destroy not only their businesses but also the High Street further still.

One the contrary, by not haggling, you're demonstrating to them that you're a mug and have no concept of running your business.

Do you always pay what you're asked for with no negotiation? I could do with a few more customers like that!

 

[SillyJokes]

I wondered if the landlords rent is still high because as a landlord you are better off with a profitable business in your unit that can afford the high rent rather than a newbie independent who is going to go down the pan in three months.

Just playing devil's avocet here.

 

[Esk247]

I wondered if the landlords rent is still high because as a landlord you are better off with a profitable business in your unit that can afford the high rent rather than a newbie independent who is going to go down the pan in three months.

Just playing devil's avocet here.

Why is it assumed that by 'negotiating' the best price for a retail unit, that business is either new or going down the pan?

As has been said by others. You negotiate the best price for the product/service/building.

A unit we almost rented last year was advertised at 12k per annum..i'd of been a complete noob to have paid the full 1k a month rent considering we would of had to spend 2k on remedial works to the property plus the fact it hadn't been assessed for rates properly and the fact that was a the top level rent for the shops on that street.

So I'm a fool for not paying the landlord the top level rent for a sub standard building? I must be joining many many fools the world over who negotiate a price before agreeing to a contract. :|

I guess I best pay the price as advertised for my next car..or else my business is going down the pan and i'll be bankrupt within a month....no point asking for money off the list price is there..nobody does that..

The landlords are holding out for the best price/must gullible business. The big commercial lets are coming down in price because the big national chains have property agents who work for THEM and negotiate the best possible price for a unit. If they feel footfall is down in general and trading is down they will walk away from the likes of shopping centres and out of town parks unless the landlord/landowner agrees to a discount on the price.

For small shop rents I still believe that rents have barely changed across the country. Some will have done. Most haven't imo and from feedback on other forums and BBC reports of late.

 

[kelvin1950]

I wondered if the landlords rent is still high because as a landlord you are better off with a profitable business in your unit that can afford the high rent rather than a newbie independent who is going to go down the pan in three months.

Just playing devil's avocet here.

How long does the property have to stay empty for this to be a bad idea?

Our landlord has a suite of offices above our shop, no idea what the rent is but they've been empty for close on 18 months. I wonder how much money he's made by not letting them to a new business.

 

[David1962]

Do you always pay what you're asked for with no negotiation? I could do with a few more customers like that!

Well if you can't sell a quarter of sherbet pips without discounting then I could do with more shops like you

To answer your question, on many items yes I do if there is good service, quality or other value attached. Recent personal examples would be Estate Agents, builders, cleaners and tree surgeons. I go for not the cheapest but the best overall value and am happy to pay their advertised rates when I have sorted the wheat from the chaff. We have been operating a service based business for the past three and a bit years, pitched our price at the very top but offer great service. We are working at maximum capacity and only once has someone tried to haggle our price and that was a shopkeeper. Don't expect you to believe that, but it's true.

Businesses that don't compromise on price generally don't need for very good reasons. Same goes for retail units, unless of course they are purposefully leaving them empty with the aim of getting change of use to another business class or residential use, which is more than likely the case with a great many long term vacant units.

 

[Duke Fame]

Well if you can't sell a quarter of sherbet pips without discounting then I could do with more shops like you

To answer your question, on many items yes I do if there is good service, quality or other value attached. Recent personal examples would be Estate Agents, builders, cleaners and tree surgeons. I go for not the cheapest but the best overall value and am happy to pay their advertised rates when I have sorted the wheat from the chaff. We have been operating a service based business for the past three and a bit years, pitched our price at the very top but offer great service. We are working at maximum capacity and only once has someone tried to haggle our price and that was a shopkeeper. Don't expect you to believe that, but it's true.

Businesses that don't compromise on price generally don't need for very good reasons. Same goes for retail units, unless of course they are purposefully leaving them empty with the aim of getting change of use to another business class or residential use, which is more than likely the case with a great many long term vacant units.

Unless your stock is all in prime pitches, i don't believe you.

 

[CAEDAN]

The high streets have been hit from internet sales, I have no doubt. Not to the point that the streets are empty - footfall has just reduced.

The economy is another factor, Those purchases of value are now usually made online. The main reason is, say you want a TV from an electrical outlet - you often can reserve and collect as less a a price than buy in-store. Though this doesn't mean everyone is online - they are now 'savvy' with their shopping habits, want to pay internet prices for what is local. Hence the supermarket has the small purchase market covered.

The Landlords and Councils are still stuck in the era of high streets being packed, and the place to be - that is changing, and already done so in many areas. Been 7 months or so since I last walked down our high street. The landlords and councils need to realise this, and that their units are not worth the outlay - they are tired, and over priced. Where once you had no choice as an owner - you now do have a choice with online webstores, and effectively becoming a distribution outlet.

If you look at one of mine, new unit build last year £350/month serviced lease outside of town (5 miles)

Council owned one, a few miles away - £1200/month and old and tatty, walls needed rebuilding to make safe etc. rates £900/month

The smart money will go elsewhere - after all, for what you save you can pay a developer to build you one fantastic store for the saving on a month or two's rent!

Shop owners in the high street need to use the one thing that online stores and supermarkets do not give - personal advice. Use it, don't throw it away for free, and realise that strength and asset. Online stores will never compete with that!

 

[Lunazzurra]

Further to some rumours I've been hearing, and since it is SO quiet here today, I've been doing a bit of research. The rumour was that several shops in our immediate area have been (very recently) put up for sale.

Trawling through the various agents websites I found 15 shops (i.e. the business being for sale as opposed to the freehold/leasehold) are on the market within our immediate area.

Out of those, 11 are eateries of one sort or another ranging from takeaway sandwich bar to a restaurant and including 2 fish and chip shops. (Bear in mind that Torquay is a tourist destination and relies quite heavily on having plenty of good eating places available). All of these eateries are good, well respected and clean, so there are no problems there.

(As an aside and following on from other recent posts, I'd like someone to explain how they think that the internet might have taken business away from these particular establishements, especially when most of them offer some form of free wi-fi or internet connection facility).

But what worries me most, is that if these business owners are unable to sell them as going concerns within a reasonable time, we may well be left with even more empty shops in the high street. Eating out was meant to bucking the recession, but I'm putting doubt onto that now.

It is well known that eateries, have in the past, generated footfall for other shops because they bring people into town and keep them in town for longer than they would otherwise. They also feel more relaxed and happy (theoretically anyway) and therefore more inclined to spend in other shops.

If these eateries disappear, and if this is typical of the high street/town centres in general, then that can surely only have a major impact on other businesses in the area.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

Further to some rumours I've been hearing, and since it is SO quiet here today, I've been doing a bit of research. The rumour was that several shops in our immediate area have been (very recently) put up for sale.

Trawling through the various agents websites I found 15 shops (i.e. the business being for sale as opposed to the freehold/leasehold) are on the market within our immediate area.

Out of those, 11 are eateries of one sort or another ranging from takeaway sandwich bar to a restaurant and including 2 fish and chip shops. (Bear in mind that Torquay is a tourist destination and relies quite heavily on having plenty of good eating places available). All of these eateries are good, well respected and clean, so there are no problems there.

(As an aside and following on from other recent posts, I'd like someone to explain how they think that the internet might have taken business away from these particular establishements, especially when most of them offer some form of free wi-fi or internet connection facility).

But what worries me most, is that if these business owners are unable to sell them as going concerns within a reasonable time, we may well be left with even more empty shops in the high street. Eating out was meant to bucking the recession, but I'm putting doubt onto that now.

It is well known that eateries, have in the past, generated footfall for other shops because they bring people into town and keep them in town for longer than they would otherwise. They also feel more relaxed and happy (theoretically anyway) and therefore more inclined to spend in other shops.

If these eateries disappear, and if this is typical of the high street/town centres in general, then that can surely only have a major impact on other businesses in the area.

That is a worry - can you ask any of the other owners why they are hoping to move on? Maybe they've just got to the stage where they've built the businesses up so they now have more value and they're cashing in - maybe trade has just been so poor it's not worth their while slogging their guts out.

Obviously in a seaside resort like Torquay the weather will have affected visitors last year - the prospect of (possibly) another non-existent summer would frighten me half to death.

Worrying, but see whether you can find out the real reason they're thinking of getting out and don't automatically assume the worst!!!!

Personally, I like Torquay; I'm seriously considering re-locating my business next year and it's on my short list of possibles so I shall watch your posts with interest!

 

[Lunazzurra]

That is a worry - can you ask any of the other owners why they are hoping to move on? Maybe they've just got to the stage where they've built the businesses up so they now have more value and they're cashing in - maybe trade has just been so poor it's not worth their while slogging their guts out.

Obviously in a seaside resort like Torquay the weather will have affected visitors last year - the prospect of (possibly) another non-existent summer would frighten me half to death.

Worrying, but see whether you can find out the real reason they're thinking of getting out and don't automatically assume the worst!!!!

Personally, I like Torquay; I'm seriously considering re-locating my business next year and it's on my short list of possibles so I shall watch your posts with interest!

Hi Doodle. I'll try to find out further if I can, and I'm not automatically assuming the worst, but I know for a fact that at least a couple of them have been really struggling now for 2 or 3 years so the final straw has probably come. Another one has only been going for a few months, so probably finding it difficult to meet costs. (Although this particular one has other cafes in the area which are NOT up for sale as far as I know).

I must admit, having the main, semi-pedestrianised shopping street, closed off/dug up/re-surfaced/re-paved for the past five months (original contract was for just nine weeks!) definately has not helped any of us. And there's more to come in September leading all the way up to Christmas!!!! Great!

What's worrying is that, traditionally here, you might expect to see that number of businesses up for sale in October at the end of the season, but not now in May/June when things haven't really got going yet.

And by-the-way Doodle, you'd be most welcome here in Torquay - BIG skies, wonderful sea-views across the Bay, 40 minutes and you're in the heart of Dartmoor. (And no, unfortunately I don't get a commission from the Tourist Board).

 

[mconridge]

Torquay has been hit pretty badly in terms of Retail Stores closing. If you compare it to other shopping areas in the local area such as Exeter, Newton Abbot, Paignton etc it's occupancy rate is far lower.

I've just signed leases for two shops for a new business (completely different from my current one). Will be interesting to see how the high Street changes over the next year as I get this business going.

 

[Lunazzurra]

Torquay has been hit pretty badly in terms of Retail Stores closing. If you compare it to other shopping areas in the local area such as Exeter, Newton Abbot, Paignton etc it's occupancy rate is far lower.

I've just signed leases for two shops for a new business (completely different from my current one). Will be interesting to see how the high Street changes over the next year as I get this business going.

Thanks for your comments mconridge. I must say though, that most of the shops that now stand empty in Torquay do so because they have been vacated by some of the Big Boys: Past Times, Monsoon, HMV, Dixons, Woolworths, Jessops and so on. It also hasn't helped with the likes of M&S and Next moving onto an out of town retail park with free parking.

However, generally speaking, I have been quite impressed with the (comparative) robustness of the non-food independents. We moved to Torquay to start our gift-shop business nearly six years ago now, and although some independents have been and gone along the way, I would say we now have a nett gain of independents on our high street. Trouble is, with things seeming to be getting tougher and tougher it's difficult to say how for how much longer that is going to be case.

May I wish you good luck with your new ventures anyway.