Apprentices - the moral question

paulears

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Reading another topic, I'm becoming a real sceptic about the benefits of apprentice schemes.

Firstly there seem to be very unusual schemes going on that let very basic and non-technical roles become suitable for apprenticeships? Historically, many jobs had a requirement that the person who does the 'real' job has a good background in skills, knowledge and techniques, and to ensure the business is stable and had these skilled workers, you too trainees on at perhaps 16, trained them on the job, ran some classes, and usually had an approved body like a college, add the academic content and manage the testing and certification.

Now we get very small firms taking on apprentices. My own experience of small businesses, being one, is that I do not have the time to train people. Everyone needs to be self-supporting. I do one thing, and everyone else does theirs. No way do I have the time to stop earning money and slow down and have somebody with me, learning from me. One client, out on a job asked me why I constantly showed a new guy what I was doing - I said he was new, and had to learn. The client pointed out he was paying me to do the job, not train somebody else. Good point, I thought.

Most apprentices got their training on the job from the skilled people, and it was accepted that much of what was produced during the training might be rejected by quality control, or not up to spec in some way. Now we seem to have people working in basic level jobs where there is no huge technical skill required or complex brainwork to do - just turn up, work, and then go home. They can now be paid less, and put on a scheme. Not all, but quite a few employers see the entire scheme as access to cheap workers. If you want to be an engineer, or a plumber or electrician, then apprenticeships make sense. If you want to be a clerk in an office, or work in a shop or behind the counter in the Post Office - that's not a role that needs a formal apprenticeship.

It's being abused as far as I can see. What proper training is being provided, and what qualifications do the trainers require, because I bet they don't have them in the majority of cases.
 
Apprenticeships enable the government to fudge the job statistics.

Many apprenticeships range from dogs body, to cheap office admin, to real apprenticeships such as electrical or plumbing.


https://www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeship/735677

https://www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeship/779202

https://www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeship/765243

The amount of 'retail apprenticeships' in comparison to any other form of apprenticeships is disgusting.

To the OP, this isn't a dig at you (I have no idea of what you do or what your apprentices do), but some 'apprenticeships' are a complete joke.
 
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MOIC

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    Completely agree with above post.

    In the past an apprenticeship was to be trained in a skilled profession where you was taught the skills required to further your knowledge and career in that profession.

    Now, it seems that an apprenticeship is to get people to work in any job, irrespective of how menial (or skilled) that job is.

    The current government apprenticeship scheme, seems to have the objective, in the main, to get people into (subsidised) jobs rather than not working at all.
     
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    Bushman

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    Unfortunately the term "apprentice" has massively been devalued over recent years. An apprentice these days is the equivalent of what used to be called YTS (youth training scheme). I'm not sure what the current equivalent is to a proper apprenticeship.
     
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    paulears

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    Not just me then? Phew! My daughter in law's job is finding people for employers - people need certain categories, and she finds them. Sometimes, the apprentice scheme has a fit. Why would a professional kitchen want apprentices? The really good repetitional chefs don't have to have any official qualification, they have to be inspirational cooks. The heirachy in a kitchen is totally pyramid like - is there a need for somebody to be called an apprentice in a kitchen? Pay everyone NMW, then move up as they take on more responsibility when they are good enough. Using a scheme to cut employment costs for no good reason has to be wrong? Nursing never had apprentices, they had cadets - but they also had proper training by people who could train. Nowadays do we really think anyone can be a good teacher? So many people nowadays have to teach as part of their job, and those that want their ability recognised, get a formal qualification, then another, then another to get better at it! When I trained to be a teacher in the 90s, I was what they called a "mature student", doing it alongside my job. So were the others - Policemen, nurses, prison officers, helicopter pilots, ship captains and even a whiskey distiller, plus lots of hairdressers and beauty therapists and a physio. Their employers wanted them to train the newcomers to their professions, and they HAD to be qualified. Now a business of 4 people can take on an apprentice - that's just impossible to responsibly and morally.
     
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    Why would a professional kitchen want apprentices? The really good repetitional chefs don't have to have any official qualification, they have to be inspirational cooks. The heirachy in a kitchen is totally pyramid like - is there a need for somebody to be called an apprentice in a kitchen?

    Haha. you'd find out pretty quick if you ate in a restaurant where the chefs or cooks were totally untrained in food hygiene and safety. My best friend was a trainee chef in the late 1960's and he did as much college and passed as many required exams as I did in the motor industry. I think the standards have dropped since then. That could be why there is so much food poisoning around :eek:

    Seriously though. Any training for school and college leavers is a good thing, even if they only learn how not to do things. Unfortunately, the modern apprenticeship is politically aimed at keeping the young off the dole queue and delivers patchy results. I have some very good IT contacts who are millennials and have 'graduated' through the modern apprentice scheme. Some of them are very good at what they do and some are not so good. It all depends on the employer.

    Everyone needs to be self-supporting. I do one thing, and everyone else does theirs. No way do I have the time to stop earning money and slow down and have somebody with me, learning from me.

    Quite so. If you don't have time to train someone, don't take on an apprentice.
    I'd love to go back to the days of full five year trade or craft apprenticeships with government financial support through the Industry Training Boards, but most would say that is hopelessly expensive.

    If you believed in the gospel according to St Maggie, employers would fund the training that they needed in order to remain competitive. It didn't happen and now most of our tradesmen are well trained folk from eastern Europe.
    If you believe the gospel according to St Blair, everyone gets a degree and then they transform into X-men and save the world. Alas that didn't happen either and now we have graduates serving coffee in Costa.

    The answer lies in investment and if you wait for employers to do this in a market economy you will wait for a long time. However there are some glimmers of hope -
    'Train them to a level where they can leave and then treat them well enough that they don't want to.' - Richard Branson.
     
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    D

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    When I was young there was a generally accepted way to get into my profession of photography. One went to one of the handful of photography colleges, did some C&Gs and then swept floors in a studio while learning the real business of how photography was done. Wages were very low, only just enough to survive on. After four years of assisting I went freelance and as work increased had assistants of my own.

    While the floor sweeping, tea making and running deliveries were not tasks that needed any training nearly all my assistants went on to success. My first assistant ended up as MD of Pinewood Studios, My third became an expert in photographing hard edge products like Hi-Fi equipment, teamed up with a client to form an ad agency which launched Macintosh computers in the UK. My last became the UK's highest paid photographers.

    I think that the big problem with so-called modern aprentiships is that they do not prepare the young worker for real chances to reach the top.
     
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    Clinton

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    'Train them to a level where they can leave and then treat them well enough that they don't want to.' - Richard Branson.
    I keep seeing that quote everywhere and it's a load of hogwash.

    Perhaps it works for Mr Branson, but it doesn't work for the average small business. When a mum and pop business trains an employee, the employee will leave and join a larger organisation for the job security it presents and the career advancement opportunities it offers.

    No matter how well he's treated he's not going to hang about with the small, two man band.
     
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    Deleted member 59730

    Perhaps it works for Mr Branson, but it doesn't work for the average small business. When a mum and pop business trains an employee, the employee will leave and join a larger organisation for the job security it presents and the career advancement opportunities it offers.

    No matter how well he's treated he's not going to hang about with the small, two man band.

    Its called giving something back. Because I learnt a lot from others I could not pay back I in turn helped others on their road. Even when I had no job to offer I would always spend time talking to young college leavers, look at their work and pass on advice. It makes the world a better place.
     
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    No matter how well he's treated he's not going to hang about with the small, two man band.

    Hiya Clinton. Glad to see you are awake.
    Sorry, my rehash of the old Richard Branson Quote was a tongue-in-cheek attempt to illustrate just how FEW UK businesses there are who will fund training and employee benefits in the free market environment. Obviously, I missed the mark.

    But, your response does define how beneficial the old Industrial Training Board solutions were. In that time Mom and Pop T/A MomProds could take on an apprentice. They could do this because, provided they delivered the individual training to acceptable standards, their costs were covered. So when young Mr Wanna D Well decided to spread his wings and fly to something better Mom may have shed a tear at his going but the impact on the company bank balance would not have made Pop wince.
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    I think the concept of employing apprentices in companies is a very good idea.



    The Government is actively encouraging small companies to take on apprentices,
    but will not pay for someone in the company to train them.
    AND .. pay the apprentice.

    The company naturally has to train them to do the job just like any new starter


    The Government expects the small company to allocate someone's full time out
    of their normal working hours to train and oversee the Apprentice.

    Where do you get this from

    The pathetic £1500 apprentice "grant" is plainly an insult to any small company,
    and that is only paid after a successful period of employment.

    You cannot pick and choose the apprentice that you decide could be the best match
    for your business.

    You are allocated a specimen.

    Actually you are given a number of CV's that they think may suit and you pick and interview the ones you want to

    Allocated by someone in a remote Government office who knows nothing about the
    basic attributes / type of person you require.

    If the apprentice turns out to be a completely useless mong,
    you will have extreme trouble getting him removed,
    under the convoluted apprenticeship terms and conditions.

    Again not true both sides can leave at any time

    Where as a normal useless employee can be thrown out instantly.

    Unless you employ an Apprentice Training Agency....at an additional expense.


    Why does the Government not pay the minimum wages directly to the Apprentice
    instead, and not the small company employing them ?

    Because you get the benefit of their work, even at the start most will be doing work as well as training

    The apprentice would be employed by the Government, the college fees paid by the

    Government and not the small company.

    College fees are paid by the government and also traing inhouse by the college staff

    Then the small company does not have the extra paperwork and bureaucracy to deal
    with.

    The cost is just as much as dishing out unemployment benefits and housing benefits
    for the potential apprentice, and will keep them off the streets, and give them a skill
    and work experience.

    Work experience is a value in itself, its quite a eye opener for most about what is expected in a 8 hour day and even graduates find it a rather rude awakening their first few days at work

    That same skill and work experience the Government keeps telling us that the young
    unemployed people need to find a job.
    ( If there are any )


    Why take on an apprentice, when there are onerous terms and conditional conditions
    for the small company to adhere to by having an apprentice,

    Not true

    when,
    for slightly more cost,
    you could instead have a skilled / semi skilled worker who will not need constant
    babysitting.

    Probably in the hope that you end up with a employee who does things your companies way and likes working for you


    The new Employment Minister in the Government ( whoever it is ) needs to re-think
    this whole crap apprentice system through again.


    The Government is giving away £ millions every year in "humanitarian aid" to support
    India's space and satellite program, why can't they use this money to support
    the unemployed back here at home ?

    Suggest you talk to Ian Duncan Smith about this point


    https://www.gov.uk/take-on-an-apprentice/pay-and-conditions-for-apprentices

    .
     
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    Clinton

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    I think this post is about the MORAL question. No dispute.
    Atomsbob, my post that you quoted was about Branson's claim. My point was that no matter how well a small business treats an employee the ambitious employee will probably leave.

    But I agree with you about giving something back. 100% with you there.
     
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    phonegrade

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    I find that a lot of older people are now becoming apprentices as well not all young and they are thinking about introducing into universities soon that will be interesting at least they can start covering their fees
     
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