Anti Amazon

[quikshop]

So this our second Xmas of not buying anything through Amazon. No stupid singing boxes will be darkening our door, no hideous retail commission paid to Amazon by a UK retailer and no buying direct from Amazon who have replaced a UK retailers products with their own.

We have bought online direct to UK retail websites, also ventured into various high streets and spent actual money...

Don't sell your soul to the retail devil people... buy local and buy independent when you can

 

[Aileen B]

My gripe with Amazon is that if I order multiple items they come in multiple LARGE boxes. Such a waste even though we recycle what we can.
Singing boxes? that's a new one for me.
I try to support small UK and local business when I can.

 

[alan1302]

I think I want a singing box!

 

[alexsmith2709]

Im having my second Christmas amazon free too (a few previous to that Amazon were never my first choice). I run a small independent high street shop so i know how important every sale can be to us smaller guys. I have bought as much as i can from other independents and will be getting most of the Christmas meal from butchers and greengrocers too.

 

[Mr D]

I have multiple issues with amazon. Them being a retail devil isn't one of them.
Have purchased many items from them and from 3rd party sellers. Plus other companies in the UK and overseas on ebay and other websites.

High streets, sadly way too many shops close early. Some as early as 5.30pm even. While using a early 20th century business model in the 21st century the high street doesn't want to improve itself.

Hasn't quite cottoned on to the fact that people decide where they spend their money. And more is moving away from the high street every year, slowly but surely.

 

[Mr D]

My gripe with Amazon is that if I order multiple items they come in multiple LARGE boxes. Such a waste even though we recycle what we can.
Singing boxes? that's a new one for me.
I try to support small UK and local business when I can.

If you order from me there's a chance you'll get multiple large boxes too. Don't always have the smallest size that will fit a particular item in stock or have the items in the same county as each other.

 

[billybob99]

I am addicted to Prime. Sometimes there is a delivery van just for me.

Am I missing the point that you simply recycle the cardboard boxes.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I think its my 4th year without Amazon. Stopped using them for 2 reasons.

1/ They took additional money from my account for non-existent 24 hour delivery which was actually 4 weeks. I wasn't even in the country at the time.

2/ When they took over Lovefilm someone in their office tried to transfer £2,000 out of my account when he thought I was on holiday.

 

[Colin_W]

A good few years ago I sarcastically predicted that there would be a day when the only two retailers left would be Amazon and Tesco. I would love to shop more from independent or smaller retailers, but as Mr D mentioned above, a lot of retailers complain about the impact that online is having on their business, but then don't change their ways to appeal to today's customer.

I happened to be in the care today when a feature came on about the department store Watt Bros where the (fairly young) MD was extolling the virtues of not having an online presence as it takes people away from the stores and not buying into late-night opening. Although their business has done reasonably well since he took over, if he visits any of his stores and looks at the typical customer profile, he will see that it is not sustainable as his current customers will disappear over time and he is not attracting new (younger) customers to replace them.

While I would love to use Amazon less, the fact that I get "free" one day delivery, their products are always competitively priced and they have almost everything I want to buy on one website means it would take a lot to persuade me to shop around or visit multiple sites. And I am definitely not one for carrying bags around town centres when I can get them delivered straight to my door.

The question is - other than those who shop elsewhere for idealogical reasons (and nothing wrong with that at all) what can other retailers do to attract the habitual Amazon shopper?

 

[Mr D]

The question is - other than those who shop elsewhere for idealogical reasons (and nothing wrong with that at all) what can other retailers do to attract the habitual Amazon shopper?

Thanks for that Colin.

A couple of things I have seen over the years (and experienced a few times).
Boots used to have a bunch of late evening opening prior to Christmas, as I recall a Thursday night.
Back in the early 90s I'd spend £60 to £100 on presents in the store in one night, I worked a 7 day week at the time so didn't usually get access to shops. Mail order and Boots meant I could do some of my own Christmas shopping.

More recently a couple of towns have tried a Christmas evening market. Not necessarily the daytime market people renting the stalls and pushing the market times with advertising. The one time I went the weather was poor so cannot say was wildly successful. Local shops by the market were shut in those evenings.

Of course the obvious one and not done by all shops is have a website for online shopping.
Whether collect in store or pay extra for delivery - would a shop owner find it cost effective to spend an hour a day packing say £200 of sales extra to have someone take to the post office same day / next day?
I know most of my competitors in my local area, I use them for stock research. A number of them sell offline and all but one have websites. Around half I can order online. The others missing out on around a sixth of UK total retail sales.

 

[quikshop]

It still amazes me that some high street shops still don't accept contactless payments, others no card payments at all. Our local House of Fraser employs a bloke to open the door and greet shoppers... but their touch screen online ordering terminals don't work

Amazon has launched "high street" shops in the US without any shop workers, all products are on the shelf and you simply scan them and pay automatically. Unless our high street retailers adapt our only choice will be whatever Amazon decides it is.

 

[alexsmith2709]

While I would love to use Amazon less, the fact that I get "free" one day delivery, their products are always competitively priced and they have almost everything I want to buy on one website means it would take a lot to persuade me to shop around or visit multiple sites. And I am definitely not one for carrying bags around town centres when I can get them delivered straight to my door.

The question is - other than those who shop elsewhere for idealogical reasons (and nothing wrong with that at all) what can other retailers do to attract the habitual Amazon shopper?

I think the "competitively priced" thing is my biggest hate with Amazon. They are not competitively priced, they under cut everyone. Thats not being competitive. There is no possible way a high street shop can compete with them on price and that is all some customers look at. They can sell some of the same items i sell at less than my ex VAT cost price, other items i've looked at they can only be making 10-50p per item, but that is enough for them selling thousands a day, but not for a high street shop selling 10-20 a day. I understand they have buying power, but that is only part of it, they are happy making less profit per item and using their grey area tax arrangements.

I would like to know some ideas to attract habitual amazon shoppers apart from the obvious stay open 24/7 (or just longer hours) and have an online shop offering free next day shipping. These 2 ideas aren't really feasible for many.
Part of my explanation for charging more than amazon to those who do not understand buying power etc is the customer service i offer and the fact that they are currently in my shop and can have the item right now.
Reducing business rates is a good start by the government, but isnt the complete solution. Some high street shops do need to change, i agree, but so do peoples attitudes to high street shopping. If you dont care about the high street and want to do shopping online, thats fine, i guess its the people that shop online most of the time and then complain that the high street is dying that i have most problem with.

 

[quikshop]

I think the "competitively priced" thing is my biggest hate with Amazon.

Retailers not only have to reduce their RP to compete but pay double-digit % commission per sale on Amazon's platform. On a most basic level money that ought to be going to a UK retailer is going into the coffers of a US multinational.

It's of course a matter of choice, some retailers margins are strong enough to live with their US sales tax, but for most it's an act of corporate self-harm.

What surprises me is the lack of a EU or UK alternative. OnTheMarket the property website was set up by estate agents tired of paying fees to Rightmove and Zoopla. Are there really no entrepreneurs out there willing to put the leg work into building a "small business" online movement?

 

[Mr D]

It still amazes me that some high street shops still don't accept contactless payments, others no card payments at all. Our local House of Fraser employs a bloke to open the door and greet shoppers... but their touch screen online ordering terminals don't work

Amazon has launched "high street" shops in the US without any shop workers, all products are on the shelf and you simply scan them and pay automatically. Unless our high street retailers adapt our only choice will be whatever Amazon decides it is.

Plus whatever choice I decide to give my customers. Plus whatever choice some other sellers decide to give their customers.
There is no reason why other businesses must act as amazon does.

 

[Mr D]

I think the "competitively priced" thing is my biggest hate with Amazon. They are not competitively priced, they under cut everyone. Thats not being competitive. There is no possible way a high street shop can compete with them on price and that is all some customers look at. They can sell some of the same items i sell at less than my ex VAT cost price, other items i've looked at they can only be making 10-50p per item, but that is enough for them selling thousands a day, but not for a high street shop selling 10-20 a day. I understand they have buying power, but that is only part of it, they are happy making less profit per item and using their grey area tax arrangements.

Great.
One of my larger competitors is a multi site business, the local shop is in the highest rent area for miles around. Always multiple customers in the shop, this time of year the queue at the tills is probably 20 foot long.
What he sells at £29.99 I'm selling at £22.99 - under his ex VAT level. Does that mean I'm not competitively priced? I'm buying at £8, he's buying cheaper than that as he'll be doing a £10k order every month with the UK supplier.
We both have a competitor selling online at £15.

We are each of us making a profit. Why do you care which one of us sells the same item at the price we choose to sell at?
Is it a question of control? Of someone somewhere deciding what price items must be sold for and by whom?
I'm sure amazon would not mind if they were required to increase the price, more money for them to expand with, more money to pay to Luxemburg in taxes.

 

[Mr D]

Retailers not only have to reduce their RP to compete but pay double-digit % commission per sale on Amazon's platform. On a most basic level money that ought to be going to a UK retailer is going into the coffers of a US multinational.

It's of course a matter of choice, some retailers margins are strong enough to live with their US sales tax, but for most it's an act of corporate self-harm.

What surprises me is the lack of a EU or UK alternative. OnTheMarket the property website was set up by estate agents tired of paying fees to Rightmove and Zoopla. Are there really no entrepreneurs out there willing to put the leg work into building a "small business" online movement?

We could of course pay the amount we would pay in commission to instead sell at a market, marketing costs for own website etc.
Using amazon (or indeed any site) has costs. You can choose which site you sell on, maybe they'll have sufficient customers for you.
In the meantime I'll sell on amazon with its millions of customers and think the cost of selling is cheap at only 18%. Which like all other company costs is built into my pricing anyway!

 

[quikshop]

You can choose which site you sell on

Of course, it's all about choice. What happens when Amazon through their comprehensive metrics of your sales decide that they'll produce their own version of what you sell and give their product pride of place in front of customers?

It is about control; if Amazon was just a retail platform there would be no issue. Amazon exists to take money off your business, and when it decides it can make more money by cutting your business out of the loop then it will as it is to an increasing number of retailers in the States. You have no control over that.

 

[Mr D]

Of course, it's all about choice. What happens when Amazon through their comprehensive metrics of your sales decide that they'll produce their own version of what you sell and give their product pride of place in front of customers?

It is about control; if Amazon was just a retail platform there would be no issue. Amazon exists to take money off your business, and when it decides it can make more money by cutting your business out of the loop then it will as it is to an increasing number of retailers in the States. You have no control over that.

Amazon can produce what I sell and give their product pride of place if they wish. Nothing stopping them.
Just as they'll use data to figure out what to stock so will I. Including the sales rankings on their site!
Looking at what other people sell in order to sell the same, been doing that for years.

Amazon exists to sell, it also provides a platform for me to sell for which it charges a fee.
By using their site I gain access to millions more customers.
Just as if I decide to take a shop in a shopping centre I would expect to gain access to more customers than a shop buried in middle of an industrial estate.

How can amazon cut my business out of the loop? They are one place I sell, not the entirety of places available to sell.
I think you may be confusing amazon with internet.

 

[alexsmith2709]

Great.
One of my larger competitors is a multi site business, the local shop is in the highest rent area for miles around. Always multiple customers in the shop, this time of year the queue at the tills is probably 20 foot long.
What he sells at £29.99 I'm selling at £22.99 - under his ex VAT level. Does that mean I'm not competitively priced? I'm buying at £8, he's buying cheaper than that as he'll be doing a £10k order every month with the UK supplier.
We both have a competitor selling online at £15.

We are each of us making a profit. Why do you care which one of us sells the same item at the price we choose to sell at?
Is it a question of control? Of someone somewhere deciding what price items must be sold for and by whom?
I'm sure amazon would not mind if they were required to increase the price, more money for them to expand with, more money to pay to Luxemburg in taxes.

I think you may have misunderstood what i meant about Amazon selling below my ex VAT cost price. You say you buy at £8 and you competitor buys for less. What if your competitor is buying at £6 and selling at £7.50 inc VAT instead of £29.99? How would you compete then?
An example would be there is a product which i currently buy at £7.60 ex VAT and Amazon are selling at £8.99 inc VAT. This is below my price without me making any profit, some people assume i am ripping them off when i dont even make as much margin as i would like. My price is competitive with many other shops, including big names and im sure they get the same reaction from their customers.
I have other high margin products i sell, which are my main sellers and thats how i survive. Any business can sell at whatever price they like, most businesses sell at the highest price possible to remain competitive and to make as much profit as possible, whereas Amazon seem to go the opposite way and sell at their lowest price possible just to make sales.
Before i had this business i thought Amazon was great, now i understand more about their pricing and business practices, im not such a fan.

 

[NickGrogan]

They are not competitively priced, they under cut everyone. Thats not being competitive.

As a customer, this is pretty much exactly what competitive means for most products.

When choosing energy suppliers, most people and businesses choose the cheapest, because its a commodity. 8 energy suppliers have closed down this year, because there is no margin and SSE/Npower have just scrapped their planned merger.

There is no possible way a high street shop can compete with them on price and that is all some customers look at.

Depends what your selling and to who, many shops are doing well.

They can sell some of the same items i sell at less than my ex VAT cost price, other items i've looked at they can only be making 10-50p per item, but that is enough for them selling thousands a day, but not for a high street shop selling 10-20 a day. I understand they have buying power, but that is only part of it, they are happy making less profit per item and using their grey area tax arrangements.

As you don't know their buying price and margins, this is just guess work. Given that Amazon is highly profitable, they're making money somewhere.

I would like to know some ideas to attract habitual amazon shoppers apart from the obvious stay open 24/7 (or just longer hours) and have an online shop offering free next day shipping. These 2 ideas aren't really feasible for many.

No, these wont help you compete with Amazon, you can't out Amazon them. You need to think differently.

As a customer I see shops empty on weekday mornings, with bored staff doing nothing, and yet at 6pm, when I've got time to shop, the shops are closed.

If I was a retailer I wouldn't consider opening before midday and would probably not bother to open Monday to Wednesday either. (as a shop at least)

What if your competitor is buying at £6 and selling at £7.50 inc VAT instead of £29.99? How would you compete then?

Unless you're selling a commodity, when people don't only buy the cheapest.

Otherwise Mercedes, BMW, Audi and just about every other car company would be out of business, along with clothes brands, and just about every other brand.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I use Amazon Prime.

I also use real shops, favouring independents where it makes sense to do so.

The opportunity for indie retailers is to inject some fun and soul into the shopping experience (which my local greengrocer does to great effect) Unfortunately, far too many of them take an entitled stance and ruin the experience by moaning about big retailers or online.

 

[Mr D]

I think you may have misunderstood what i meant about Amazon selling below my ex VAT cost price. You say you buy at £8 and you competitor buys for less. What if your competitor is buying at £6 and selling at £7.50 inc VAT instead of £29.99? How would you compete then?
An example would be there is a product which i currently buy at £7.60 ex VAT and Amazon are selling at £8.99 inc VAT. This is below my price without me making any profit, some people assume i am ripping them off when i dont even make as much margin as i would like. My price is competitive with many other shops, including big names and im sure they get the same reaction from their customers.
I have other high margin products i sell, which are my main sellers and thats how i survive. Any business can sell at whatever price they like, most businesses sell at the highest price possible to remain competitive and to make as much profit as possible, whereas Amazon seem to go the opposite way and sell at their lowest price possible just to make sales.
Before i had this business i thought Amazon was great, now i understand more about their pricing and business practices, im not such a fan.

Buying at 6 and selling at 7.50?
I would compete the same way I do now where I buy at 8 and sell at 22.99.

His selling price has no impact on my selling price. Why should it?
Do you set your prices based on what you want or on what your competitors are doing?

Why are you bothered by a competitor selling cheap? Why are you bothered about what people think of you? If it's that upsetting then sell something else instead.

Amazon business model works for them. No reason why you must follow it, instead come up with your own business model that works for you.

If Amazon are such a threat then are there other large businesses that are a threat too? Are there other small sellers that are a threat because they operate a different business model to yours?
You may well have come across Amazon sellers who have as a major goal being the cheapest seller even when you know they must be losing money on the sale. Are they a threat to you?

 

[SteveHa]

I solved all of my shopping issues about 15 years, when I adopted Christmas free Christmas.

 

[Mr D]

I use Amazon Prime.

I also use real shops, favouring independents where it makes sense to do so.

The opportunity for indie retailers is to inject some fun and soul into the shopping experience (which my local greengrocer does to great effect) Unfortunately, far too many of them take an entitled stance and ruin the experience by moaning about big retailers or online.

Earlier this week Amazon were giving evidence to MPs. From what I recall the guy from Amazon pointed out that Amazon are not responsible for the death of the high street - majority of UK sales are still made offline and Amazon only get some of the online sales.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Earlier this week Amazon were giving evidence to MPs. From what I recall the guy from Amazon pointed out that Amazon are not responsible for the death of the high street - majority of UK sales are still made offline and Amazon only get some of the online sales.

Interesting point. In fact Amazon's competitors are doing a hell of a lot of marketing for them..

 

[quikshop]

His selling price has no impact on my selling price. Why should it?
Do you set your prices based on what you want or on what your competitors are doing?
Why are you bothered by a competitor selling cheap?

Are you actually suggesting your competitors pricing model shouldn't matter?

I have a very happy colleague who would disagree having stolen market share by undercutting his competition and driving a number of them out of business. Amazon's success is largely built on driving down prices in comparison to the high street and indie ecommerce shops simply by having multiple retailers of the same item on the same platform.

Perhaps your Amazon goggles are blinding you to business basics

 

[Mr D]

Are you actually suggesting your competitors pricing model shouldn't matter?

I have a very happy colleague who would disagree having stolen market share by undercutting his competition and driving a number of them out of business. Amazon's success is largely built on driving down prices in comparison to the high street and indie ecommerce shops simply by having multiple retailers of the same item on the same platform.

Perhaps your Amazon goggles are blinding you to business basics

I'm suggesting that your pricing model should be what matters to you.
If your goal is to be the cheapest seller in the UK you can of course take account of every competitor.
Do not mind those of us looking to cover our own costs and make a profit.

What does market share matter? Its affecting turnover.
Who makes better profit per item?

 

[alexsmith2709]

My point about pricing is focusing on customer that shop on price and get annoyed at me/other small business and accuse them of ripping them off, when all they are trying to do is make a living. I understand it from the customer point of view, 2 products exactly the same, Amazon at £10, big name high streets and smaller businesses at £15-20, of course you are going to choose the cheapest.

I dont try and compete on price with Amazon, i know i cant compete. I have knowledge of my products and industry and i provide good customer service. I have many loyal customers because of this. Other large businesses aren't really threat because they face the same issues as me in regards to pricing compared to Amazon.

I do have a relatively good idea of Amazons buying price for the same products as i sell, so yes it is guess work, but it would be fairly accurate.

I sell other stuff that amazon dont and also offer services. These make my business work and i do focus on these.

I do largely forget about amazon on my day to day running of my business as i dont try and compete, but maybe its the fact it has become a one stop shop for everything and its the first thing on many peoples minds when they want something and this hurts many small businesses so i have made the choice not to shop their where possible.

 

[NickGrogan]

customer that shop on price and get annoyed at me/other small business and accuse them of ripping them off

Do people actually get upset that your price isn't the same/less then Amazon?

 

[Mark T Jones]

Are you actually suggesting your competitors pricing model shouldn't matter?

I have a very happy colleague who would disagree having stolen market share by undercutting his competition and driving a number of them out of business. Amazon's success is largely built on driving down prices in comparison to the high street and indie ecommerce shops simply by having multiple retailers of the same item on the same platform.

Perhaps your Amazon goggles are blinding you to business basics

Without knowing you or your friends' businesses, I do always fear for small business models that rely on being permanently cheaper - in about 95% of cases they are fundamentally flawed or non-scaleable

There are of course some strong discount models - Primark & Wetherspoons spring to mind - they are based on superb sourcing & supply.

The Jury is out on Amazon, with huge VC-backing and many years of losses my personal suspicion is that they won't be the cheapest in the long term.

 

[alexsmith2709]

Do people actually get upset that your price isn't the same/less then Amazon?

Yes. More often than i would have thought. Some people are very passionate about price and on occasion have even got quite angry towards me about it. This is still a minority though.
One the other hand, there is one high street chain that often sends their customers down to us because we are more knowledgeable, have a better range of stock and on occasion have been known to be cheaper.

 

[Mr D]

Yes. More often than i would have thought. Some people are very passionate about price and on occasion have even got quite angry towards me about it. This is still a minority though.
One the other hand, there is one high street chain that often sends their customers down to us because we are more knowledgeable, have a better range of stock and on occasion have been known to be cheaper.

Then you have encountered a different customer demographic than wanted by those of us offering the items at higher prices.
There will always be those going for the cheapest seller. They are probably the people not shopping at John Lewis or Waitrose. Online they may well be buying mostly from Chinese sellers - often the cheapest 3rd party sellers on an amazon page including amazon.

 

[Mr D]

Without knowing you or your friends' businesses, I do always fear for small business models that rely on being permanently cheaper - in about 95% of cases they are fundamentally flawed or non-scaleable

There are of course some strong discount models - Primark & Wetherspoons spring to mind - they are based on superb sourcing & supply.

The Jury is out on Amazon, with huge VC-backing and many years of losses my personal suspicion is that they won't be the cheapest in the long term.

Amazon focuses on growth over profit. Risky in its own way but has worked for them.
They could slow their growth and increase profits, affecting value and future profits...

 

[NickGrogan]

Yes. More often than i would have thought. Some people are very passionate about price and on occasion have even got quite angry towards me about it.

That's a marketing issue, more than a problem with Amazon.

Perhaps you should be looking at how you can benefit from these customers, or put them off from visiting your shop in the first place.

 

[Mr D]

That's a marketing issue, more than a problem with Amazon.

Perhaps you should be looking at how you can benefit from these customers, or put them off from visiting your shop in the first place.

And those customers with the price problem will have trouble with every business selling the item if it doesn't meet the customer idea of a price.

Not just Alex. Everyone, including amazon, because they are selling an item at a higher price than Han So.

 

[NickGrogan]

Very true, there are reviews on Amazon where people are complaining about being overcharged or it being too expensive.

Its better, for almost all businesses, to not be attracting these customers in the first place.

 

[Noah]

Given that Amazon is highly profitable, they're making money somewhere.

Are they? I thought the Amazon business model is to corner the market using investor funds and slave labour until they have an effective monopoly and then ramp up pricing to extort customers who have deprived themselves of any alternative.

I may be misinformed.

 

[NickGrogan]

Are they? I thought the Amazon business model is to corner the market using investor funds and slave labour until they have an effective monopoly and then ramp up pricing to extort customers who have deprived themselves of any alternative.

I may be misinformed.

$2.5 - 3 Billion per Quarter. Sounds good to me.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

I would like to pitch in as well and personally think Amazon does a fantastic job. They solve anfd have solved many problems and diversified their business. AWS is quite good to be honest. Also on some of their goods pricing is better than ebay. Problems they solved, no need to keep parts for stock with their competitive pricing and next day delivery no need to keep stock anymore. Returns, work very good specially on items where sellers area nightmare to deal with such as aftermarket toners and ink.

 

[Mr D]

Are they? I thought the Amazon business model is to corner the market using investor funds and slave labour until they have an effective monopoly and then ramp up pricing to extort customers who have deprived themselves of any alternative.

I may be misinformed.

Well my business will offer an alternative. I expect a bunch of you people will also be willing to offer alternatives to Amazon if they try that.
Unless Amazon buy up all businesses and impose non compete requirements covering everything... Then they would be complete idiots to try what does not work.

Trouble with that idea you have for Amazon is it generally fails big time.
And these days there are tons of sellers who would be able to provide goods to people.