Another late payment thread - tricky circumstances

DevChips

Free Member
May 16, 2016
6
0
I have several outstanding invoices with a limited company I worked for as a freelancer. I had been chasing them for payment when I decided enough was enough and refused to do any further work for them in August 2015. The total amount outstanding is nearly £20,000 and the last invoice was issued in September 2015. At the time, the company had absolutely no money that I am aware of and subsequent to my departure, did barely any business at all, but they told me they had the intention of building it back up in early 2016 (delay tactics I'm sure). I saw no point in taking any further action at that point because all I would be doing is forcing the company down the pan, along with any chance of future payment.

Early this year, the company was renamed to replace another company owned by the same party which was forced into administration by HMRC. Te company number is the same, they just changed the name and directors to try and reduce exposure to the other company. Their intention was obviously to retain their clients from the dead company and keep trading. I only know this because I've been keeping an eye on them for an opportunity, but of course they didn't make any effort to inform me.

So, several questions arise;
  1. Does the name change affect the invoices issued last year in any way?
  2. I know they are still struggling financially, but what are my options for collection? A payment plan perhaps?
  3. Can I charge interest?
  4. What should my next step be?
I'm over the angry stage, but I would really like to start working towards a resolution.
 

GGGSurrey

Free Member
Sep 15, 2010
342
32
If for example the OP was certain that the company currently had no assets and there was a danger that a reminder from the OP of the outstanding invoice would cause them just to give up, would it be better for the OP to hold off taking any action?
 
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If for example the OP was certain that the company currently had no assets and there was a danger that a reminder from the OP of the outstanding invoice would cause them just to give up, would it be better for the OP to hold off taking any action?

Until when?

The OP needs to gain title to the debt, THEN he can enter into some kind of payment plan - or force the debtor into liquidising his company (which ruins his credit rating and anybody doing due diligence will see the compulsory winding up and refuse him credit).
 
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DevChips

Free Member
May 16, 2016
6
0
Thanks everyone. The reason I'd been holding off until now is because I didn't want to force the company into liquidation, because then I would never see anything.The truth of the matter is that they have no intention of ever paying me back, and I need to take some action. I just want to make sure I don't shoot myself in the foot along the way by giving them reason to wind up. The best outcome for me would be to get a payment plan going, so I want to make sure I take the right steps to achieve that goal.
 
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L

Lovetts Solicitors

In theory you can chase the debt for up to six years, although realistically you're not going to want to leave it that long!

Interest will run from the date the invoices became overdue, and assuming you don't have anything in your T&Cs or on the invoices to contradict, then you should be able to claim Late Payment interest of 8.5% (8% above base rate). You may also be entitled to Late Payment compensation of between £40-£100 per outstanding invoice.

Obviously if there's absolutely no money in the company then you do run the risk of going to the trouble to get a Judgment only to find it can't be enforced, or that they will just wind up the company. But as has been said above if they have gone to the trouble of renaming the company then clearly they want to try to continue trading, which does give you some potential leverage.

As has been suggested above a Letter Before Action is probably a good starting point. If they respond to say they can't afford to pay you now then you can look into a payment plan. If they won't play ball then you can always issue a claim and go for judgment. As part of the Judgment process they have the opportunity to put forward a proposal to pay in instalments, and if they don't you can ask the court to order they pay instalments of a certain amount each month until the debt is cleared
 
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nelioneil

Free Member
Jan 22, 2013
790
140
Until when?

The OP needs to gain title to the debt, THEN he can enter into some kind of payment plan - or force the debtor into liquidising his company (which ruins his credit rating and anybody doing due diligence will see the compulsory winding up and refuse him credit).

Is is true in reality that a directors own credit rating can be affected by company circumstances and liquidation (assuming no personal guarantees)? Or are you talking about the company specifically?
 
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Is is true in reality that a directors own credit rating can be affected by company circumstances and liquidation (assuming no personal guarantees)? Or are you talking about the company specifically?

So let us imagine that I am a sleazy jerk that deliberately runs up debts with no intention of paying them off. To do this, I launch a series of shell companies and create a credit carousel and in doing that, one of my bogus companies looks healthy and I sucker in some suppliers and sell them goods and services to the value of, say, £100,000.

I liquidate the company, strip out all assets and turn my trouser pockets out and tell them and the courts that there is no money to be had. Boo-hoo, sob, sob.

Now I phoenix one of these companies, or start a new one, and I approach you for supplies. You, being a reasonable and intelligent person, look me up and lo-and-behold, you see a string of dormant or dissolved companies and even a forced liquidation by the courts.

Although I personally am not responsible for the debts of those defunct companies, you would have to be stark-raving bonkers to give me two-and-sixpence in credit.

There are three important aspects to this whole issue -

1. Sensible people will check your history! If you run up debts and then liquidate your Ltd., (SpongeBob plan or whatever wheeze you pull) no supplier that has an ounce of sense will ever give you credit again. Even your very presence as a shareholder in another company will poison that company and destroy its credit.

You personally may be able to buy a new car on the never-never or get a mortgage, but you will have a long, hard battle to get back any believability as a business person.

2. Check their history as company directors! If you fail to check, you only have yourself to blame! My grandfather always used to say that instead of punishing criminals, we aught to be punishing the victims for stupidity. A bit harsh perhaps, but there is more than just a grain of truth in that (and was used by Collodi in his story 'Pinocchio' - the gorilla judge sent Pinocchio to prison for being duped by the fox and the cat).

If you lend money (i.e. supply on credit) to a company or individual, check their history! Look them up in DueDil or one of the dozens of other company check sites. If they have had a string of companies, some of which have been liquidated, dissolved or otherwise vanished, or if they have recently created a string of companies that have not yet filed any accounts, or otherwise look a bit dodgy - AVOID THEM AT ALL COSTS (or at least just supply on a cash-in-advance basis).

I realise that there may be many on this forum that will feel attacked by those words. They think that hiding behind the Ltd. formation is a legitimate business tool and stringing people along in the hope (against hope!) of getting some money down the line is a legitimate negotiating tactic.

It isn't. It is a crime. It is fraud.

The problem is, that the police, the prosecutor's office and the courts have become far too lax in enforcing the law. As long as the potential defendant went through some nominal attempts at turning things around, they throw their hands up in the air and say "Oh well, it is just too hard to prove fraudulent intent!"

That is arrant nonsense and just bloody-minded laziness on their part. Lying, cheating and stealing has now become institutionalised as a result.

3. ACT QUICKLY! Never ever allow the grass to grow under your demands. The very moment that a debt is in default, letter before action, followed by action and without ANY delay. GET IN THERE FIRST!!!

Time and time again, experience shows that if you act quickly, you get paid. If you are stupid enough to be fobbed off with silly sob stories, excuses and/or sudden complaints about the product or service provided, you go all the way to the back of the queue and will get zilch.

These dead-beats will pay you, if you act swiftly and with no deviation or remorse.

Why?

Because they are doing the exact same thing to dozens of others that they have not told you about! HMRC, rent, utilities, other suppliers, leasing agreements, car payments, even wages, you name 'em and they'll be in massive arrears.

They will need to keep you quiet, so as not to alarm all the others. The only way they can do that successfully is to pay you!
 
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Why are they more likely to pay if the OP acts swiftly?

Read -

Because they are doing the exact same thing to dozens of others that they have not told you about! HMRC, rent, utilities, other suppliers, leasing agreements, car payments, even wages, you name 'em and they'll be in massive arrears.

They will need to keep you quiet, so as not to alarm all the others. The only way they can do that successfully is to pay you!
 
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@The Byre - good advice. Leaving debts in the hope that debtors' circumstances will improve is merely giving them more opportunities not to pay you. Nothing more.

As stated above, letter before action, then take court action.

Also, as this is over 10k, I would hire a solicitor, rather than issuing court proceedings yourself. It's too much cash to risk screwing it up, and you'll recover your solicitor's costs.

Dean
 
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L

Lovetts Solicitors

One thing that's also worth pointing out is that because since the debt is greater than £10,000 but less than £25,000 if there's a dispute or any defence then it is likely the case would be allocated to the Fast Track. This means that unlike a small claim you will be able to recover most of your legal costs should you win (in theory you can claim all your costs but it's incredibly rare for a judge to award you more than about 80-90% of your costs in reality). However the opposite is true as well - in the event you lose (or there is a counter-claim that you don't defend) then you would be liable for the other side's costs.

As Dean has said above for this size of debt we'd really recommend you take legal advice. If you want give us a ring or PM me with your number and we'd be happy to have an initial chat if you're interested.
 
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