Am I being unfair ?

[Carpetman]

Hi all, this question relates to my trainee who has been with me for 14 months since leaving school.He is learning upholstery & carpet fitting. I started him off right away on a 40 hour week earning the minimum wage which gave him a take home wage at the tender age of 15 of £ 141.20. After 6 months I put his wages up by 20 pence an hour which gave him about an extra fiver a week. At the beginning of April he started to pay tax and is now taking home roughly what he was when he first started.

Anyhow today he started having a go and reckoning his wage should go up every year ! I pointed out it went up after only 6 months. I should add that so far although I have gained a extra pair of hands and to be fair a good, reasonable reliable employee, he has not actually made me any money which I knew would be the case for the first year or so as he has to learn everything from scratch.

Basically I want to be fair with him but I need to tell him in a constructive type of way that perhaps he needs to buck his ideas (he still sleeps in the van on the shortest of journeys !)up a bit if he wants more pay.

I know apprentices who go to college at that age often get paid below the min wage. Surely a 16 year old taking home in excess of £140 a week is a half decent wage. I have also bought him all the tools and clothes he needs for work - he gets treated very well.

So what do you think ? Pay more or say 'show me your worth it !'

Cheers

 

[promohouse]

'show me your worth it !'

-------------------------
Best,

Lee

 

[Chunky Beagle]

I'm sure in the current climate you wouldn't find it difficult to fill his space with someone alot more eagor to work and earn.

I think he should be grateful that he even got that high pay with his training.

Most people, as you know, pay to get that sort of experience.

 

[VJT]

You are being fair, if he wants more he has to show that he's worth it!

Vicky

 

[deniser]

We pay our school girl Saturday girl £5.50 per hour when she is entitled to £4.83 under the minimum wage and we paid her £5 when she was entitled to £3.57. That is a totally unskilled job which anyone can do.

Presumably your carpet fitter is now reasonably well trained after 14 months? Does that not justify a pay rise above the minimum wage? If he is good at his job then surely better to keep him by paying a bit more than losing him and having to start all over again training someone else?

But sleeping in the van is not on IMO! I guess he will be 17 soon so you could make him drive the van (if safe if he is so tired!).

 

[Allan123]

Without a doubt show me your worth it.

Years ago when my partner was a trainee in a solicitors she earned a meer £340 a month for working fulltime 40hour week.

When she was ready to pass her NVQ and her wage go up to NMW they sacked her and brought in 2 school leavers again!

He obviously doesn't realise how much your wiping his arse at the moment, and should be lucky to have any job at all, never mind be on £8k a year at 16 with the perks of tools, clothes etc!

 

[winton50]

Sit him down and explain to him what makes the business tick, so for example you get paid per job so whether it's just you doing it, or the both of you then the money's the same. Also point out that people are expecting to pay less for their goods and services in many cases so you are lucky to make the money you do.

Maybe you should set out exactly what things would make him more valuable to you.

Then you can set a series of goals that, if he acheives them, will give him X amount as a pay rise.

That way you both win. He's got a clear set of aims, and it will actually make you money if you end up paying him more.

I think that you also need to be realistic as to his use to you. So would you have to train up a new assistant? Would you be able to expand if you took on another experienced fitter instead?

I know that it's difficult when someone you've treated well has a damn good moan but hopefully by making clear your thoughts it will lead to a much more productive relationship.

 

[Carpetman]

We pay our school girl Saturday girl £5.50 per hour when she is entitled to £4.83 under the minimum wage and we paid her £5 when she was entitled to £3.57. That is a totally unskilled job which anyone can do.

Presumably your carpet fitter is now reasonably well trained after 14 months? Does that not justify a pay rise above the minimum wage? If he is good at his job then surely better to keep him by paying a bit more than losing him and having to start all over again training someone else?

But sleeping in the van is not on IMO! I guess he will be 17 soon so you could make him drive the van (if safe if he is so tired!).

Thanks for your reply, but would you pay your Saturday girl £ 5.50 an hour if she was working 40 hours ?

 

[Ashley_Price]

Basically I want to be fair with him but I need to tell him in a constructive type of way that perhaps he needs to buck his ideas (he still sleeps in the van on the shortest of journeys !)up a bit if he wants more pay.

Yes, he should prove he is worth it, but I don't see any problem in him sleeping in the van - unless he's driving at the time. He could say that he is keeping himself fresh.

You should give him a quarterly and yearly review and then the result of the annual review determines if there is a pay rise or not. Why not set him targets to meet with a bonus if he exceeds them?

 

[ShortCouture]

it's possible that his new moans are driven by someone else's 'advice'. I agree with Winton50 - explain how the biz works, howe oyu make money - how you have paid forhimto learn etc and that he has not reached the point of making you any money. But it's important that you show him what he has to do to get there -and then help him do it.

Keep all your comments positive, so instead of 'you're not making me any money yet' you might say 'your training isn't quite complete but if we do a few things we can get you to a point where you are making money for the business'.

If you set him goals, then you can set the rewards when he reaches the goals. goals can be multi-staged and incremental.

A few truths wouldn't hurt either - a recession, people out of work, you can't just hike your prices etc

 

[maxine]

I agree with Winton too about explaining how the business works re income per job not per man hours.

I'd also suggest making a list of all main duties and then rate on a 1-5 where he is at in terms of competence. 1 being poor despite being shown several times, 2 poor but getting hang of it, 3 OK, 4 good most of the time and sometimes do on own, 5 brilliant and can do unsupervised all of the time.

Explain when he gets to a 5 he can do those things unsupervised and then you can talk about bonus.

It would also wind me up about sleeping in the van. Not only is it rude it is wasting valuable learning time.

 

[Barnie]

If this lad doesnt have any reviews or stepped pay rises of course hes right to ask for a rise

what i would do is sit down with him and plan out the next 2-4 years or your expectation of how long it will take him to become fully qualified, this includes letting him know the payscale and when he will get it plus whats he needs to achieve to get it.

then every 6 months do a review with him and let him know how hes doing on your agreement then annually or bi annually give him the pay rise according to the plan, if hes not met your targets for training then review a few months after.

 

[deniser]

Thanks for your reply, but would you pay your Saturday girl £ 5.50 an hour if she was working 40 hours ?

Yes but she would have to take on more responsibility to make her the person we want for a full time job (which she could quite easily do - I would trust her).

I can't get over the sleeping in the van thing though...... makes me think of people taking a quick nap under their desks in the office throughout the day! LOL!

 

[Doug]

discuss it with him. Explain the costs you have incurred to get him in and the time invested.
review his progress consistently and set periodical points to discuss wages etc.
Also explaining as someone else suggested how business works would give him a better idea.

sounds like he is a tad naive, which is understandable. I'm sure if you think he is doing well and has ability then it makes more sense to explain to him rather than starting from scratch with a new trainee.

 

[maxh]

Pay him £7.20 an hour and triple his workload.

 

I certainly do not think £140.00 for 40 hours work is either fair or acceptable! Doesn't this equate to about £3.50-£4 p/h? I was getting paid £4.50 per hour in my first job after leaving school in a Cinema and that was 12 years ago!

He now has 14 months experience so to pay a semi-sliked worker (regardless of age) this sort of money is really not fair IMO. Yes you trained him but it is irrelevant. He is obviously feeling put out by it and there is nothing worse than having an employee who is not happy, it can be cancerous to your business.

If you have no intention of putting his money up you must be straight with him that way he can go find someplace else to work rather than spend another 6 months moaning and b*tching and bringing a bad energy and atmosphere into your workplace.


Pay peanuts - get Monkey's.

If you want good staff who are reliable, hardworking, dedicated and enthusiastic you HAVE to pay them a realistic amount of money in order that they feel appreciated.

 

[estwig]

Have you beaten the boy with gripper rod yet?? If not make it a priority for tomorrow morning.

He needs to understand a little gratitude for having a job and the opportunity to learn a good trade.

 

[Carpetman]

I certainly do not think £140.00 for 40 hours work is either fair or acceptable! Doesn't this equate to about £3.50-£4 p/h? I was getting paid £4.50 per hour in my first job after leaving school in a Cinema and that was 12 years ago!

He now has 14 months experience so to pay a semi-sliked worker (regardless of age) this sort of money is really not fair IMO. Yes you trained him but it is irrelevant. He is obviously feeling put out by it and there is nothing worse than having an employee who is not happy, it can be cancerous to your business.

If you have no intention of putting his money up you must be straight with him that way he can go find someplace else to work rather than spend another 6 months moaning and b*tching and bringing a bad energy and atmosphere into your workplace.

Pay peanuts - get Monkey's.

If you want good staff who are reliable, hardworking, dedicated and enthusiastic you HAVE to pay them a realistic amount of money in order that they feel appreciated.

Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree with your opinion once you have learnt your trade and command a better wage. We are talking about a 16 year old who has only stepped onto the first rung of the ladder in his job. If Id started him off at £200 a week he ould still be asking for a rise - people inherently want more !

I'm not against paying him more but I need him to be able to justify his wage and I'm afraid there are too many weeks when he isn't doing that with the wage he is on just now, which isn't all his fault as I need to take the time to show him things. I'm sure some of you will understand my frustration when you do take the time to show someone how to do something only to have take the time to show them again a week later because they 'forgot'.

I guess this is what come from employing a teenager -I don't regret it but I wouldnt go down that road again.

Regards


Ps Michelle, If I'd had to pay more when I took him on there wouldn't have been a job there for him - have you thought of that ? What are his alternatives ? Macdonalds, Burger King, KFC ?? With respect to those establishments I am teaching him a skilled and sought after trade which will keep him in work for the rest of his life if he sticks at it !

 

[estwig]

Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree with your opinion once you have learnt your trade and command a better wage. We are talking about a 16 year old who has only stepped onto the first rung of the ladder in his job. If Id started him off at £200 a week he ould still be asking for a rise - people inherently want more !

I'm not against paying him more but I need him to be able to justify his wage and I'm afraid there are too many weeks when he isn't doing that with the wage he is on just now, which isn't all his fault as I need to take the time to show him things. I'm sure some of you will understand my frustration when you do take the time to show someone how to do something only to have take the time to show them again a week later because they 'forgot'.

I guess this is what come from employing a teenager -I don't regret it but I wouldnt go down that road again.

Regards

I think your spot on, I've never had a proper apprentice as such, but had plenty of youngsters working for me over the years. The main thing I always went by, was they had to earn their keep, same as the rest of us or they were gone, plain as.

£140.00 a week for a kid, no wonder he's always falling asleep in your van, he's got so much money he's off his trolley every night of the week and needs to sleep it off.

 

If he isn't pulling his weight you ought to give him a warning and then at least he knows where he stands.

You can't employ someone who doesn't do what they are supposed to do, you complain about it in the background (without them knowing) and then become frustrated with their lack of motivation and them asking you for a pay rise.

If you had bought his apparent laziness to his attention in a formal warning at least he knows what he needs to work on.

I am not trying to be difficult it's just I have worked for companies who do nothing but complain about certain members of staff but never tell them in a professional direct format.

If you are training him you should already be doing some sort of review process like the other posters mentioned.

 

[Carpetman]

Have you beaten the boy with gripper rod yet?? If not make it a priority for tomorrow morning.

He needs to understand a little gratitude for having a job and the opportunity to learn a good trade.

No I haven't done that yet !! You are right about the gratitude thing though - he doesn't realise what is actually involved in employing him (why should he !) he just turns up and draws his wages from the bank - in all seriousness he is on a good number but he won't realise that until he goes to work for someone else !

 

[truesilver]

Loads of comments here.

I agree with the accountant about showing him the workings behind the business. I'd say a bit more carrot and stick. Falling asleep on the job (even in the van) isn't a good sign.

May be plan together how he wants to progress and show him the rewards if he does.

Be a little careful though - reliable young apprentices are hard to find and if you do lose him that may mean having to trawl through quite a few slackers before finding someone as good.

Hope it goes well

L
________________________________________________________________
Truesilver.co.uk
Truesilver Coaching & Marketing

Speak to me about tapping into government funding for your small business

 

[Doug]

how about setting out goals for his development, and if he reaches them within a certain time frame and can demonstrate knowledge to a suitable level his pay goes up.

That was his pay is in his own hands to a certain and he can have something to aim for. That way you might get someone with a bit more motivation as well as preventing you from thinking that he isnt putting the effort in or that he isnt paying attention.

 

[BusinessRookie]

estwig - I will never understand the "gratitude" approach that a lot of employers take when it comes to paying employees.

"They should be grateful of the job in this climate" type of approach

Shouldn't the employer be grateful of the money that the employee makes for the business?
And shouldn't the employee be grateful of the opportunity as well?

My point is that it's give and take for both parties and should be a mutual relationship, not "I'm doing him a favour by giving him a job". You're not giving him anything, you're paying him to make money for you. If an employee is not making money for you (or adding value) then it does not make sense for them to be an employee.

If I was the employee then I'd be keeping my options open and know that I am valuable enough to work anywhere else at any given time. How this individual feels about their value is another matter.

 

[estwig]

estwig - I will never understand the "gratitude" approach that a lot of employers take when it comes to paying employees.

"They should be grateful of the job in this climate" type of approach

Shouldn't the employer be grateful of the money that the employee makes for the business?
And shouldn't the employee be grateful of the opportunity as well?

My point is that it's give and take for both parties and should be a mutual relationship, not "I'm doing him a favour by giving him a job". You're not giving him anything, you're paying him to make money for you. If an employee is not making money for you (or adding value) then it does not make sense for them to be an employee.

If I was the employee then I'd be keeping my options open and know that I am valuable enough to work anywhere else at any given time. How this individual feels about their value is another matter.

Normally I'd be in 100% agreement with you, because you are right.

But we are talking about a 16 year old (not much more than a child), it's a completely different scenario from an adult employee. Kids of this age need to be told, because they often don't understand, they may also need a firm hand to keep them in line.

A good trashing works wonders!!

 

[Matt1959]

most people work for the money and why not! I'd have thought there was enough profit in carpet fitting to chuck in some bonuses on a regular basis. I know you wouldnt dream of being paid in cash and not declaring but if you were and you shoved a bit this young guys way......isnt carpet fitting a job for hard grafters? people that work hard and play hard, working on to finish the job etc - it must be possible to up this chaps wages up relative to output. 99% of people are in it for the money so he's no different I bet.

 

[BusinessRookie]

Normally I'd be in 100% agreement with you, because you are right.

But we are talking about a 16 year old (not much more than a child), it's a completely different scenario from an adult employee. Kids of this age need to be told, because they often don't understand, they may also need a firm hand to keep them in line.

A good trashing works wonders!!

Ahh, touche

Maybe he does need a bit of grounding?

 

[Matt1959]

this is 2010 not 1910 though I know the above knocking into line posts are a bit tongue in cheek, how many guys would you have to go through before you got the one that responded positively to 3 years of paying for their own knowledge:|. Granted, this is how it was way back when but now? If it were me, I'd expect to pay peanuts for 12 months max as a kind of probation period then I would pay a wage that they could be pleased with. By that time I'd know whether the enhanced wage was worth paying. Upping a wage by 20p an hour doesnt exactly add to a positive vibe around the family dining table when the kid gets home and gets chatting about his day

 

[Carpetman]

Just a wee update,

i spoke to him today and tried to encourage him by saying that I need to see a wee bit more effort and gumption - He is a nice lad whom I like, when there are straightforward things to do there is no problem, its when he has to figure out something for himself, or do something which is out of his comfort zone or even just find something to do to keep busy when there is nothing obvious (there is ALWAYS something that could be done) - these are the times he lets himself down - and that is my point , he himself has to realise he is now in a working enviroment and has to pull his weight and earn his wage. If he does as I have asked I will only be to happy to reward him for his efforts !

Thanks for all the replies - they have helped a lot

 

[estwig]

Good luck with him Carpetman, I've had appos like you describe, where it's just me and him and if you can find a lad you like, can get along with and wanna help along, you gotta try and work things out.

It would be good for you and the boy to work things out, there is something very satisfying about passing on knowledge and helping someone younger, who you hope appreciates it.

One foot outta line and don't be shy with the griper rod, he'll understand it in the long run!!

 

[Carpetman]

Gripper rod !!

Nah I think a whack with the knee kicker would be more effective !!

That would wake him up

 

[Matt1959]

just to add to this thread, I use a young guy about 20 (been using him a couple of years now) evenings/ weekends as and when I need him for helping me with delivering heavy items to client homes and this guy is totally brilliant. He's strong as an ox, he's almost one step AHEAD of me alot of the time is knowing what to do next, he's good with customers, friendly, chatty, smiley, he's the best person I've EVER worked with in this capacity and I pay him around £10ph in his hand and he's worth every penny so there are some good ones out there.......

 

[unosais]

he should prove he is worth it. If he refuses there are others out there much more deserving and much more thankful to the pay that you are giving.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

We and our forefathers have spent many years cultivating the desires of the young to invest in must have products yet expect them to be happy with the proverbial 'orange and spinning top'. Different breed these days i'm afraid.

Youngsters. Work em hard, pay em well. Either that or get an experienced carpet fitter who's happy to work for peanuts but is 85 years old and moves like a slug

 

[Bri]

Carpetman, youve not resolved the sleeping in the van from last time have you? So obviously he's been talking in his sleep, just tell him you dreamt all that pay rise stuff.

One thing to do is next time your buying supplies give him a piece of paper tell him we need new tools, go and price them up for me. When he comes back keep it in your pocket for when he whinges about money, pay rise and buy your own tools or I buy your tools and we're quits. 16 yr olds respond kindly to this approach.

Have you given sleepy a nickname yet to embarass him in front of customers?

 

[adoralacy]

Absolutely ,"show me your worth it"

 

[adoralacy]

Abosolutely ,"show me your worth it"

 

[PayVector]

I used to have a driver in the army that would fall asleep every single time we stopped. I dsiciplined him once about it and got a pretty solid answer back.

He basically said some jobs we would be out for days on end and did he want a driver half asleep whilst driving or as rested as possible. I had to give it to him. He had just argued his way quite well into being able to sleep whenever not needed.

So there is your answer. Kick his a** into the army.

 

[Christine Hough]

Yes, he should prove he is worth it, but I don't see any problem in him sleeping in the van - unless he's driving at the time. He could say that he is keeping himself fresh.

Unless he finds motoring completely hypnotic, I would suggest he is not in an active and alert and to me this would be a significant problem and dubious attitude. Why is he not asking and curious, wanting to get to know you ( or whoever the driver is ) more and get to understand how you want things done?

He does not know how lucky he is!!!

My son with various technical skills was unemployed for six months after the company he was working for disappeared. I then took him on part time but was only able to pay him 110 per week. He did great work and used his initiative, but now he has landed a position with great opportunities. Still working about minimum wage and he is thrilled with it and going in seeing how he can better the business daily.

 

[Carpetman]

Further update - Mr Sleepy head slept in this morning, i had to phone him to wake him up. This left us playing catch up the whole day, result being we had to work til finishing time and then travel the half hour home thus making up for the half hour he missed in the morning - guess who slept for almost the whole half hour 'making up time' . I'm seriously getting hacked off, this is now becoming a major problem as far as I am concerned - especially as I'm knocking my pan in at the moment(not had a day off in weeks) so i can comfortably pay his 2 weeks holiday pay which starts on Friday.

My dilemma is he actually did a good days work for which i made a point of crongatulating him on. He may have fallen into the trap of thinking that I can't mange without him but he is forgetting that I struggled for 12 years doing all the lifting and shifting on my own.

Hacked off, pretty seriously hacked off !