Accountant - Am I being taken for a ride ?

[Marantzdigital]

Hello UKBF !

I'm hoping to hear (or not to hear) your opinions on my situation.

Summary :
What exactly should I be getting from my accountant?
I pay monthly. I don't get any contact or updates like a review or catch-up. I have been running the business for 1.5 years and not seen any 'accounts' or paperwork relating to my taxes or business performance.

I did have about 2 hours of sit down questions to fire at my ACC at the last appointment I made (otherwise never hear from him) which he did answer and I appreciate time is money so that's worth my monthly payment itself.

But I find that my ACC doesn't suggest ways for me to better my business or save or things to do eg what to consider claiming, unless I pop the qusestion.

Is this normal?

Am I expecting the ACC to do more than his role or should I be looking at a business advisor for the above?

What exactly am I paying monthly for is my concern..

Are there intervals or checkpoints I should be having?

I got a late filing notification which I had to alert him of but he said it's fine don't worry.

I run a small slow paced passion turned business. I know how to buy and sell but the protocol of the business world, I am still in the early stages of understanding.

I dont claim on my car for work, or my home office. Probably lots of other things that could help my business grow.
I've reached out but my ACC didn't really offer a solution..

Your experienced thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

What services did you sign up for - do you have a contract or letter of engagement which states what they will be doing?

 

[DoolallyTap]

what you don't say, is - how much you are paying per month. Without knowing this it is almost impossible to form an opinion.

 

[Mark T Jones]

From experience (on here & amongst my clients) most accountant disputes boil down to lack of communication.

At risk of stereotyping, accountant tend to be poor at conveying exactly what services they are offering, or at clarifying levels of service.

As the customer, it down to you to be exactly clear what level of service you are seeking / prepared to pay for. That applies to this accountant and any other you may change to

 

[AndreasC]

As you say time is money and I hear this a lot and it comes down to expectations. What does your monthly fee include? If one off advice is extra which is normally is then you would have to pay based on time.

I have clients that have the same view and i tell them I am not a mind reader (I won't know when they are thinking of doing something they want advice on) and it comes at a cost which some are keen to avoid or keep down as much as possible. If they are happy to pay we have monthly or quarterly meetings.

On the late notice it depends what it is for as to whether it is as bad as it sounds but you shouldn't be getting those and your accountant should be legitimately maximising costs you claim in the business.

If you aren't happy with them and would like to move get in touch

 

[Marantzdigital]

It's £60 per month which I thought sounded fine as an hour at a mechanics will cost you that for example. £60 could be eaten into with anyone offering professional services for an hour or two very easily I'm sure.

I am blaming myself for not using him for what he's there for (eg pestering him with all my idea) so I put it down to my own newbie teething-feet-finding issue).

I didn't realise I would have to find potential solutions and run them by him.

I haven't got any contract or paperwork in place - I naively assumed that an accountant has you on their books and looks after any paperwork due and is there to advise you on your business if they clearly see you're missing out on anything.

I Understand he probably has 20+ other clients to deal with.

But just not sure if I've got the wrong end of the stick or am not playing the game right? It's hard enough trying to navigate the business world.

 

[UK Contractor Accountant]

I pay monthly.

For what?

Need to clarify with Accountants what services are covered in your monthly DD.

My experience is that most small sized Accountancy Firms are reactionary based when it comes to advisory services - only give advice in response to a specific request. The day to day accounts & tax preparation services are generally carried out at the junior staff level who are not really qualified to give advice.

Advisory (tax planning) services should be carried out at the Partner/Qualified staff level - you are, in most cases, looking at a 3 figure per hour charge out rate for this service.

 

[Newchodge]

Are you a sole trader or a ltd company? Is your accountant a member of a professional body?

 

[DoolallyTap]

You need to say if you are a Ltd company or sole trader/partnership.
£60 per month, less than 1 hour. For that you should only expect some micro or small business accounts.

Your accountant will want to charge for everything else so if you want to ask questions, be ready to pay. Your accountant is not there to make suggestions for improving your business, unless you ask, that's your job.
He may not even know anything much about your business, his role is figures, what you do is almost irrelevant.

 

[DontAsk]

I pay monthly. I don't get any contact or updates like a review or catch-up. I have been running the business for 1.5 years and not seen any 'accounts' or paperwork relating to my taxes or business performance.

That's a big red flag for me. After 1.5 years you must have has a set of final accounts to submit by now. When did you submit your accounts for the year end? I would expect them to be turned around within a few weeks, a month at the most. You should have a set if accounts to sign off as director, and they will detail what corporation tax you owe, if Ltd.

I got a late filing notification which I had to alert him of but he said it's fine don't worry.

It's not fine.

Self assessment or company accounts? If you are Ltd, when was your year end?

It's £60 per month

£720/yr is not unreasonable, depending on the size of the company.

I would start looking for another accountant.

 

[PCD]

You have already been paying him towards the accounts so it is probably worth contacting him and asking what he needs to complete the first accounts and when they are likely to be ready for your approval. You can then see how he does with them and with any questions you have on them. You will then be better place to decide if he is providing the service which you require or if you need to consider a change.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't think the cost is bad but it's not always about the money
We all need accountants that we can get on with and gel with and iMO it is neither parties fault . We do put some professionals on a pedalstal resulting in us giving too much respect and not demanding enough ot exactly what want.
It maybe time to find a more suitable accountant

 

[estwig]

I've been with a big national firm of accountants for the last 15 years or more, they have thousands of clients like me, back bedroom warriors!

You'd think the service would be cold, impersonal, it's quite the opposite. Amanda who works for them has been doing my books for over 10 years, she is absolutely great, answers any questions I have really quickly, she has a team of chartered accountants behind her if needed.

I don't expect any input from my bean counters, I don't really want any, they are not business people, they count beans, ensuring I don't pay more tax than I have too!

I have always believed in really looking after your bean counter, submit monthly receipts and invoices on time, always answer any queries straight away, try to be considerate and cheerful!

 

[Mr D]

Accountant should be doing your accounts. From over a decade experience of using accountants they will answer questions but won't tell you how to run your business.
If you have a query you ask them if you can't find out the information elsewhere. Depending on contract they can of course charge you for the time.

Both accountancy businesses I have used have done a contract setting out what they will do for their fees.

 

[Marantzdigital]

For what?

Need to clarify with Accountants what services are covered in your monthly DD.

My experience is that most small sized Accountancy Firms are reactionary based when it comes to advisory services - only give advice in response to a specific request. The day to day accounts & tax preparation services are generally carried out at the junior staff level who are not really qualified to give advice.

Advisory (tax planning) services should be carried out at the Partner/Qualified staff level - you are, in most cases, looking at a 3 figure per hour charge out rate for this service.

After my initial conversation with him I felt comfortable enough to commit and excuse my naivity but can only recall being told that I have to set up a £60 monthly direct debit and everything else will be handled, apart from any thing that needs to be paid for eg I think pensions paperwork. No mention of being charged per session or for advice. He has always said I can ask anything and in the 1.5 years I've had two 2 hour 'ask the accountant about things you googled' sessions. No charge. I believe that £60 is to do any basic paperwork, I haven't been informed or altered to anything that will be extra, but of course I would be happy to pay it if need be.

Are you a sole trader or a ltd company? Is your accountant a member of a professional body?

LTD company. Running for about 1.5 years with same accountant, hes a one man band, doesn't have a website just a small office.

You need to say if you are a Ltd company or sole trader/partnership.
£60 per month, less than 1 hour. For that you should only expect some micro or small business accounts.

Your accountant will want to charge for everything else so if you want to ask questions, be ready to pay. Your accountant is not there to make suggestions for improving your business, unless you ask, that's your job.
He may not even know anything much about your business, his role is figures, what you do is almost irrelevant.

He's actually not charged me for anything extra, I guess my business doesn't really do very well, it's really slow paced intact and I don't do a lot of activity out of the ordinary online retail : buy with card sell on website with bank setup. I did tell myself this too, the accountant is the numbers man. Planning the business would be for another professional perhaps, but when googling from feeling unsure about the situation, I saw sites saying the opposite; that a good accountant should understand the business and help you grow as your growth means their work increases, I got the impression that an accountant was like a micro mentor from these sites, which then lead me to further question my situation.

That's a big red flag for me. After 1.5 years you must have has a set of final accounts to submit by now. When did you submit your accounts for the year end? I would expect them to be turned around within a few weeks, a month at the most. You should have a set if accounts to sign off as director, and they will detail what corporation tax you owe, if Ltd.


It's not fine.

Self assessment or company accounts? If you are Ltd, when was your year end?


£720/yr is not unreasonable, depending on the size of the company.

I would start looking for another accountant.

I think it's less the money but more the activity. I'm not sure exactly what the fee is for, sounds very silly of me not to know what I am paying for doesn't it ! I am a LTD Company. Company accounts. End of year was around October 2022. I heard nothing from him, call me silly but I thought we would have a one year sit down and see how the business is doing (I must have watched too many movies) then in December 2022 I contacted him to say I wanted a to pop down as not sure what's happening with business, thinking to drop it as i don't feel I was doing it right / reaping enough benefits for running it eg using my own things car home etc. I asked if I could see my tax accounts to see what I owed so I can work out myself if I have done right or wrong in my way of doing business and he said he would get that to me in Jan mid as he was on holiday - fair enough, he's human too everyone needs a holiday!

You have already been paying him towards the accounts so it is probably worth contacting him and asking what he needs to complete the first accounts and when they are likely to be ready for your approval. You can then see how he does with them and with any questions you have on them. You will then be better place to decide if he is providing the service which you require or if you need to consider a change.

He asked for 1 years bank statements and that was all. I've not heard from him it's been a month since he was back in the UK. I appreciate some places need the chase, but I don't know what I'm chasing requesting. I'm on this forum to learn so please enlighten me as to anything or particulars I should be researching, it would.be much appreciated.

I don't think the cost is bad but it's not always about the money
We all need accountants that we can get on with and gel with and iMO it is neither parties fault . We do put some professionals on a pedalstal resulting in us giving too much respect and not demanding enough ot exactly what want.
It maybe time to find a more suitable accountant

I agree. I think cost is okay if you feel okay to pay it also the comfort factor being able to talk to a professional openly. At the same time part of the reason for this thread is that I was questioning myself in regards to am I expecting more than the accountants Role, is this normal ? It's like taking a car for a service and expecting them to fix any problems as part of said service - yep I've done that with my first car but you live and learn. Maybe my understanding of the ACCs role is wrong hence I also thought perhaps I am mixing up an ACC with a business advisor.

I've been with a big national firm of accountants for the last 15 years or more, they have thousands of clients like me, back bedroom warriors!

You'd think the service would be cold, impersonal, it's quite the opposite. Amanda who works for them has been doing my books for over 10 years, she is absolutely great, answers any questions I have really quickly, she has a team of chartered accountants behind her if needed.

I don't expect any input from my bean counters, I don't really want any, they are not business people, they count beans, ensuring I don't pay more tax than I have too!

I have always believed in really looking after your bean counter, submit monthly receipts and invoices on time, always answer any queries straight away, try to be considerate and cheerful!

Not expecting any input - I think this is where I have my wires crossed as I genuinely thought I would get some input like oh you should do XYZ and it will help you save money make money etc. If I was an accountant I would advise my clients with the basics, but that's just me.

Accountant should be doing your accounts. From over a decade experience of using accountants they will answer questions but won't tell you how to run your business.
If you have a query you ask them if you can't find out the information elsewhere. Depending on contract they can of course charge you for the time.

Both accountancy businesses I have used have done a contract setting out what they will do for their fees.

Will answer but won't tell. Nail on the head this is my ACC. I have to ask silly questions like what's the flux capacitor and things I may have misinterpreted on the interwebs and put it forward to him before he says yes or no it doesn't work like that. Seems a bit odd way to communicate with a client or another human, if you know your field why not share the basics rather than waiting for newbies and dummy's to ask silly questions and make silly mistakes.

 

[MBE2017]

I always recommend finding an Accountant based on personal recommendation myself. I got really lucky, got a recommendation years ago from a friend, only ever used the same woman for over thirty years.

She has very fair prices, because I am semi retired this year she didn’t feel justified in charging myself, but I always pay people for their time. I would recommend always ensuring you pay your accountant on time. Look after them and they will look after you.

 

[Socio South West]

Others have made good points for you to take on board @Marantzdigital

If you want business advice, accountants aren't always the best people to get it from unless your advice is on tax implications or finance based.

Alarm bells should be ringing on publication of accounts and filing of returns - ACTION REQUIRED. It may be that a simple upping of communication will solve the issue, but there are a lot of accountants out there who will be glad of a new customer if necessary.

 

[fisicx]

Why pay monthly. I talk to my accountant once a year. He does the accounts submits to HMRC and CH and tells me how much tax I need to pay. Couldn’t be any simpler. And costs a lot less than you are paying.

 

[Marantzdigital]

Why pay monthly. I talk to my accountant once a year. He does the accounts submits to HMRC and CH and tells me how much tax I need to pay. Couldn’t be any simpler. And costs a lot less than you are paying.

I think this is how my setup is, Ive spoken to him twice really in 1.5 years only out of my own accord.

I can only see on my companies house public profile the following :

- Confirmation statement submitted
- Corporation statement

 

[fisicx]

There should be a copy of the annual accounts as well. And you should hold a copy as well.

Think it’s time to change accountants. There are some members here who are excellent accountants.

 

[Marantzdigital]

I can't see that listed on my public companies house records.

 

[Uwe (Invoiceberry)]

Is the accountant doing bookkeeping for you, or why do you pay monthly?
Except for the monthly payroll, I get invoices from my accountant on a per-service basis (e.g. consultation, annual accounts, etc.)

Bookkeeping services usually charge per month. Some accountants also have packages (including calls/meetings) and charge a monthly flat fee.

 

[Mr D]

I think this is how my setup is, Ive spoken to him twice really in 1.5 years only out of my own accord.

I can only see on my companies house public profile the following :

- Confirmation statement submitted
- Corporation statement

Every year you will have accounts to submit - you have supplied all the info needed to the accountant in a format the accountant accepts?
Then chase them. Your company will be fined if you don't supply the accounts before the deadline.
You can see the deadline on the companies house website under your company details.

 

[PCD]

The accountant, particularly as a one man band could have been very busy in January sorting out any final personal tax returns. We are now two weeks into February so he is hopefully catching up on other work including your accounts. Give him a call for a progress report. One slight concern might be your own personal tax return for the year ended 5th April 2022 which if required would have been due by 31st January. A personal tax return might have been due if drawing dividends from the company or if you had other untaxed income. If only salary under PAYE you might get away without a return if one has not been issued.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Hello UKBF !

...

Summary :
What exactly should I be getting from my accountant?
....

You should be getting what you paid for.

It sounds like the issue is a lack of communication and understanding on what you want and need, and what your accountant is doing / has agreed to do.

My advice - go back to your accountant and ask the questions you've asked here. It's not unreasonable.

I do find it odd you've had no accounts or tax returns yet and have a late filing warning but I dont know your circumstances. I would certainly ask for more information on the late filing warning.

 

[Marantzdigital]

I can see on my public companies house information:

First accounts made up to 30 xxx 2022 due by 9 xxx 2023

The last time I spoke to the accountant, he said everything was okay he submitted everything, nothing to worry about

 

[DWS]

I can see on my public companies house information:

First accounts made up to 30 xxx 2022 due by 9 xxx 2023

The last time I spoke to the accountant, he said everything was okay he submitted everything, nothing to worry about

You said up thread that your year end was October 2022 so accounts would not be overdue, just contact them and ask for an update as well as a date of when you can expect to receive your year end accounts to approve and sign off.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

I can see on my public companies house information:

First accounts made up to 30 xxx 2022 due by 9 xxx 2023

The last time I spoke to the accountant, he said everything was okay he submitted everything, nothing to worry about

Your accountant should never submit any accounts or tax returns without your authority.

What exactly has your accountant submitted?

If you've not yet had the first accounts for approval I really would ask your accountant when you will have them.

 

[Marantzdigital]

Hello forum

I have been watching the thread and taking in the replies. Got a notification earlier this week about it so thought I would update.

Things are no better but as a fool I will stick by my man until I put on my big boy pants and set myself free.

Just to mention this is my first business and first experience with accountancy.

The accountant does answer my calls anytime and always gets back to me with an answer.

He doesn't fully understand the nature of my business but he's getting there.

He leaves my submissions till the very last minute which causes me stress as obviously he is asking me for information and if there is any obstacle in getting the documents or working out what happened (due to my error and fault).

My 1st vat return was submitted a day late. He was working on it prior, as I saw he had his own notes and spread sheets and that queries for some transactions etc.

My confirmation statement was not submitted on time. I sent him the reminder letter they sent me. Then I got fed up as he didn't do anything and did it myself as I got nervous. I paid the fee.

I'm also keeping all records and handing him over spread sheets CSVs with transactions sales income etc also receipt pdf or JPG noted on the CSV docs to make things swift so I feel I am doing a lot of the work - happy to do so but am I paying too much?


The fees are £60 per month for company accounts.

£150 per quarter for VAT return.

I don't see why it's £150 for the vat return as technically is it not the same almost work wise as doing the accounts? Sounds a bit much but as I say muggings here is going to stick at it till I have enough toys to throw out of my pram.

It did also cross my mind that I need my own spread sheets to show my own calculations as if he missed one transaction or doesn't class it as fit for submission , I could be loosing a lot of money...

I'm personally a person who doesn't like to rely on others especially with my money.

Does anyone DiY account for themselves, is it worth it?

Thanks for reading.

Wish me luck

 

[Byzantium]

I might be having a word with mine this year once they have completed things this month because the fees seem to be rising when technology is making their job easier.

Unless you have complicated accounts with lots of noise around taxes, allowances, etc. then it doesn't matter to a spreadsheet or a chart of accounts whether there are 100 entries or 10000 entries, as long as they are all classified correctly.

I refuse to use the crappy Xero, Kashflow, Quickbooks, Sage nonsense which is undoubtedly good if that is your ecosystem but from the outside, Excel is my baby and will remain so.

The accountant can have a spreadsheet with pivot tables doing their job each year and think themselves lucky.

 

[Scalloway]

Does anyone DiY account for themselves, is it worth it?

You can DIY your accounts if you wish. A couple of points I would consider though.

1. You currently pay £720 a year to your accountant. How long would it take your business to earn £720? Are you better off foregoing that income to spend the time preparing your accounts?
2. Do you understand Corporation Tax well enough not to end up paying more tax than you need to?
3. Or do you have the time to spend learning how accounts and tax works?

From a personal perspective I tried doing DIY car maintenance and decided it was easier and safer paying a garage to do it. On the other hand my brother did all his own work, up to doing an engine swap with an engineer mate.

 

[DontAsk]

It's £1320/yr!

Do your own bookkeeping and leave the accountant to do the end of year orocessing.

Any decent accounting software will support MTD and allow you to do your own VAT return with a few mouse clicks once a quarter, saving £600/yr straight off, and costing way less than that.

As for the remaining £720, what's the turnover? How do you supply the data to the accountant? If you choose the same software as them they will probably have very little work to do.

 

[Marantzdigital]

Good points here

I fear that DiY one mistake could loose me more than the annual £1320, which is £60 x12 monthly plus £150 x4 for the vat work.

Contradicting this I fear the professional I use could be missing things or not categorising or putting things though that I know should go through as expenses or refunds etc. I guess that's for me to take action and be more involved in asking what exactly he is putting through etc but surely at that point I would be doing all of the book keeping anyway, and it would be like comparing notes?

I'm not overly hurt by the fees although it does seem high, as you say above I could spend a month making that £1320 and be done with it for the year instead of spending months trying to learn how it's done. It's a smart thing to learn and will save thousands over X periods but I think until I'm ready to commit, it's not worth considering the DiY route. Unless obviously there is something I have totally over looked and I'm already doing the book keeping perhaps and should only be paying for review and submission?

I am sending my accountant my bank statements, sales and refunds records in CSV format. My bank allows uploading of receipts and categorising plus adding notes.

I don't have a high volume of sales or purchase and am VAT reg due to the high value of goods rather than profit margins incase anyone was wondering. I think it actually works out a little better being VAT reg as a sidenote, when I asked the accountant if I should reg for VAT as I worked out it might be a bit better he was not supportive of the idea and said get to near the threshold and see. Even when I got near he wasn't particularly supportive of the idea. I took it that he doesn't want the extra work as I was an easy £720 to make and now he would actually have to work (lol).

As I say, nice person and there when I need to ask a question. Not suggestive for my businesses progression however and maybe having that touch would have put all the other worries aside.

Can't have it all I guess.

Sorry for the ramble, typing what's running through my head. Thanks for replies it's comforting to read your experiences and thoughts

 

[TigerTPW]

Good points here

I fear that DiY one mistake could loose me more than the annual £1320, which is £60 x12 monthly plus £150 x4 for the vat work.

Contradicting this I fear the professional I use could be missing things or not categorising or putting things though that I know should go through as expenses or refunds etc. I guess that's for me to take action and be more involved in asking what exactly he is putting through etc but surely at that point I would be doing all of the book keeping anyway, and it would be like comparing notes?

I'm not overly hurt by the fees although it does seem high, as you say above I could spend a month making that £1320 and be done with it for the year instead of spending months trying to learn how it's done. It's a smart thing to learn and will save thousands over X periods but I think until I'm ready to commit, it's not worth considering the DiY route. Unless obviously there is something I have totally over looked and I'm already doing the book keeping perhaps and should only be paying for review and submission?

I am sending my accountant my bank statements, sales and refunds records in CSV format. My bank allows uploading of receipts and categorising plus adding notes.

I don't have a high volume of sales or purchase and am VAT reg due to the high value of goods rather than profit margins incase anyone was wondering. I think it actually works out a little better being VAT reg as a sidenote, when I asked the accountant if I should reg for VAT as I worked out it might be a bit better he was not supportive of the idea and said get to near the threshold and see. Even when I got near he wasn't particularly supportive of the idea. I took it that he doesn't want the extra work as I was an easy £720 to make and now he would actually have to work (lol).

As I say, nice person and there when I need to ask a question. Not suggestive for my businesses progression however and maybe having that touch would have put all the other worries aside.

Can't have it all I guess.

Sorry for the ramble, typing what's running through my head. Thanks for replies it's comforting to read your experiences and thoughts

Having been on both sides of that fence, I can confidently say people's expectations of how much an accountant cares about accuracy and helping them create the most efficient business are largely unfounded (I could go on for ages so I'll leave it there).

One of the main things people can do to help themselves is make the records they send in as clear and detailed as possible. The more work the accountant has to do to figure out what transactions are for and if tax allowances are available, the harder its is for them to advise you. As already said here, putting together the accounts is done by cheaper staff so the accountant you speak to won't have trawled through all your records in detail and the less experienced person putting together the accounts for review isn't likely to have run a business so may not pick up or understand transactions correctly. Consistency of how things are recorded helps too so I would ask for some advice around that first.

That said, it sounds like you have the wrong accountant for you as you should be receiving a more pro-active service than you are. Regardless of what you pay it is not unreasonable to expect them to remind you when you need to get your records in and annual accounts submitted.

There are plenty of good ones out there so ask other businesses for recommendations.

 

[DontAsk]

I am sending my accountant my bank statements, sales and refunds records in CSV format. My bank allows uploading of receipts and categorising plus adding notes.

I don't have a high volume of sales or purchase and am VAT reg due to the high value of goods rather than profit margins incase anyone was wondering. I think it actually works out a little better being VAT reg as a sidenote, when I asked the accountant if I should reg for VAT as I worked out it might be a bit better he was not supportive of the idea and said get to near the threshold and see. Even when I got near he wasn't particularly supportive of the idea. I took it that he doesn't want the extra work as I was an easy £720 to make and now he would actually have to work (lol).

Gey some proper accounting software.

I use the same software as my accountant. At year end I provide them the database, they do their thing and return the accounts for signing a week or two later (maybe a bit longer if I hit a busy period). Sending .csv must be causing them a lot more work to enter that data ain their system.

For the VAT returns I click a few buttons and it's sent off to HMRC. With a low volume of sales it is not onerous to correctly categorise and check each transaction as you enter it.

What sort of mistake is going to cost you £1320?