79p an hour wage

[Beachcomber]

I have known other pub landlords who are or were when I knew them in a rut............

Unfortunately we never get to hear what, if anything, these landlords have done to turn their business around.

Are they actively promoting their pub, putting on events and drawing people in - or are they just opening the doors and hoping people come in?

I imagine there are alot that fall into the latter catagory - just like many tradesmen I know who are low on work, blaming the economy but doing nothing to actually find work apart from waiting for the phone to ring.

 

[businessfunding]

It's not his fault the pub trade has taken a dive. It is his fault he is tied into his position and has to watch his business go down with the pub trade.

I have seen absolutely no evidence that the pub trade has taken a dive. People love to quote the number of pubs that are closing - they are mostly suburban pubs; to make a coherent comparison you need relevent stats on number of pubs opening in town centres, footfall in those pubs and the number of hotels, now ully licenced that are being used by the public (very real change on coastal towns)

The only established fact is that the pub trade is changing, and to succeed you need to change with it.

I slightly regret using the term idiots and would amend it to 'misguided'. In my days on big banks we did a lot of loans to publicans and I would stand by the statement that more than half of them were deeply misguided about what running a pub entailed. Sadly in their arrogance or enthusiasm they seldom took legal advice and often walked direcxtly into bad leases, bad premises or simply the wrong 'job'.

And again, the Echo are doing nothing to support the pub trade - they are simply stirring.

 

[Consistency]

Unfortunately we never get to hear what, if anything, these landlords have done to turn their business around.

Are they actively promoting their pub, putting on events and drawing people in - or are they just opening the doors and hoping people come in?

I imagine there are alot that fall into the latter catagory - just like many tradesmen I know who are low on work, blaming the economy but doing nothing to actually find work apart from waiting for the phone to ring.

Who knows! I don't go into pubs and so can't say but there are often changes from what I see when I walk by. There are some who put the boards outside to show they are open with nice notices saying food available etc and even though the centre is very wide and plenty enough roon for these boards and pay the council a rent to have them there, still get the disabled moaning that they might crash into them in their scooters and that they are hazards.

People are petty but others are the ones who pay for it. Sometimes they try but there are so many stumbling blocks.

 

[Consistency]

Unfortunately we never get to hear what, if anything, these landlords have done to turn their business around.

Are they actively promoting their pub, putting on events and drawing people in - or are they just opening the doors and hoping people come in?

I imagine there are alot that fall into the latter catagory - just like many tradesmen I know who are low on work, blaming the economy but doing nothing to actually find work apart from waiting for the phone to ring.

It has to be said there are many who dive in, thinking that a business is easy money. People should look before they leap but sometimes, such as a bloke who was in the HR department in the army, 27 years old and getting £26,000 redundancy money!!!!!!! My disaproval of that kind of money is probably for another thread but still, they get an amount of money and nose dive on reputaions.

How many threads do we see crop up time and time again "I have an SIA licence and want to start my own security company". They have not got a clue what it entails and a lot of them are an insult to their badge anyway. It is a sad state but people are not working their way up, they are diving in.

 

I slightly regret using the term idiots and would amend it to 'misguided'. In my days on big banks we did a lot of loans to publicans and I would stand by the statement that more than half of them were deeply misguided about what running a pub entailed.

But you still lent them the money.

Earl

 

[Banned]

Unfortunately we never get to hear what, if anything, these landlords have done to turn their business around.

So on here everyone (being business experts who could do a better job) simply presume they haven't tried at all.

We don't know as you say. So why not presume he tried everything possible, rather the opposite?

 

[Gillie]

I have seen absolutely no evidence that the pub trade has taken a dive.

http://www.camra.org.uk/article.php?group_id=4200 You see no evidence? Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place?

How many threads do we see crop up time and time again "I have an SIA licence and want to start my own security company". They have not got a clue what it entails and a lot of them are an insult to their badge anyway. It is a sad state but people are not working their way up, they are diving in.

So to have a successful business then Connie, you need to work your way up before you can own it?

I think perhaps you might mean get some experience of the business before opening up on your own - surely??

Oh and the figure for rent each month for this pub was £3,000 and not the £30,000 Connie kept quoting.

 

[Consistency]

http://www.camra.org.uk/article.php?group_id=4200 You see no evidence? Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place?




So to have a successful business then Connie, you need to work your way up before you can own it?

I think perhaps you might mean get some experience of the business before opening up on your own - surely??

Oh and the figure for rent each month for this pub was £3,000 and not the £30,000 Connie kept quoting.

Right on all fronts Gillie.

 

[businessfunding]

But you still lent them the money.

Earl

Sometimes. Too often. Fortunately I can shelter behind that fact that I wasn't a decision-maker.

Also worth pointing out that that was in the days before the MMC opened the flood of Pubcos. these were mainly brewqery-tied, but the failure (and alcoholism) rate was still phenominal.

 

[businessfunding]

http://www.camra.org.uk/article.php?group_id=4200 You see no evidence? Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place?



.

Nope. Not a single mention of pub openings, footfall or turnover.

As a pure guess I would suggest that today's economic climate is putting a squeeze on town entre pub too, but on a 10-year trend many town centres have been transformed (probably not in a good way) by the influx of 'Superpubs' and bars. Superpubs have between 3 - 5 times the footfall of a rural pub, but still count as one licenced premise.

Similarly all hotels are fully licenced and often serve as bars whereas previously wre residents only.

Like all statistics there are any number of variables.

In fairness to this article, it is pointed at the social effects around the demise of rural pubs which is avery different discussion.

 

[alanc]

The hidden agenda being that a lot of these pub chains are more interested in running the pubs down and selling the empty property.
The value of the properties far outweight their low rents.

This post has hit the nail on the head.

I know the pub in question. Several others along the same road have been demolished and re-developed for housing. A significant planning decision in this area has meant that a number of these developments have been higher (in height) than has been previously allowed in Cheltenham. This makes the land occupied by the pub very valuable.

 

[Philip Hoyle]

Why oh why won't people get proper "due diligence" when they commit themselves to buying a business/lease?

This thread reminds me of a classic example a few years when a prospective client came in for his "freebie" first meeting. He was buying an existing business, part of which was leasehold premises. He showed me some rough workings which he said were his forecasts and also some very amateur annual accounts which the seller had provided (no sign of any accountant certificate). All he was interested in was how much I'd charge to do the book-keeping and tax returns.

I tried and tried to point out potential flaws, i.e. no proper accounts, and what were clearly flawed forecasts, and also warned him about signing the lease as he openly admitted not only hadn't he read it, but he hadn't even seen it, and he point blank refused to pay for a solicitor to review the lease, nor pay for me to check over the "books" and do some sensible forecasts and "what if" planning scenarios.

In the end, I was so frustrated about his complete lack of interest in checking it all out properly, I just shook his hand and wished him good luck. I didn't bother sending him a quote. Next thing, I see he's bought the business. Didn't last a year before it had closed down.

Unfortunately, some people just won't take (pay for) proper professional advice simply out of arrogance that they know better!

 

[businessfunding]

and your a business mentor

Indeed I am; and armed with my input many prospective publicans would walk away, whilst others woiuld be going in with their eyes far more open as to what it was really all about; thus have a far greater chance of success.

I don't know what your point is however, as it makes no attempt to illustrate that the pub trade has taken a dive and adds zero value. If anyone can prvide comprehensive stats I will be happy to accept that I'm wrong.

 

[thebigIAM]

I thought it a sad little tale. I would feel sorry for anyone in that position, even if I had followed their progress for a long time and had seen it coming a mile off.

What I don't recommend is that you hang on and hang on. The minute you realise you would be better off financially filing for bankruptcy, you should look after number one and just get on with it.

 

[businessfunding]

I comletely agree, Philip.

It's not clear whether the main issue is arrogance or 'saving', but the licenced trade, but in many cases these are people putting their life savings at stake but fear they will be ripped off if they spend a few hundred quid on professional advice.

An astonishing numbe of the 'ripped off' threads on this forum really boil down to 'did you read the contract?'

We've all done it, but you can't really blame others if you blindly sign your life away.

 

[Cobby]

Maybe the rewiring didn't need to be done seven years ago???????

He is a tennant, not buying the place anyway.

I really don't know how to make this point any clearer. If someone tells you that you are responsible for the repairs to something for the duration of the contract (say 10 years), you check the 'something' to see what state it is in before saying yes to the contract. That way you know how much you may be required to pay out for the upkeep.

Maybe the rewiring didn't need doing seven years ago, but if his lease is for 10 years then surely he should have checked it to see if it would last the duration of his lease? It's called due diligence and it sounds like this guy didn't do it.

That's not to say he hasn't worked his backside off since then and done everything conceivable to keep his business running, he just made mistakes when he began.

 

[Philip Hoyle]

It's not clear whether the main issue is arrogance or 'saving', but the licenced trade, but in many cases these are people putting their life savings at stake but fear they will be ripped off if they spend a few hundred quid on professional advice.

I think a lot of it is down to the nannying and "no fault" culture we seem to have these days. People are accustomed to getting recompense for things that happen to them, whether it's PPI compensation, compensation for tripping up, legal aid and citizen's advice bureau help, and loads of charities, all set up to help people get their "rights". They don't realise that none of this is available in the business environment and that there is no-one to look after them and they do have to start looking after themselves.

 

[megamuel]

Some good points being made on both sides here. I think the fact is, most pub landlord are not business peoples as such. They mostly will have worked in the trade for years and taken the next logical step to have their 'own' pub. But otherwise they would not have started up a business. It's easy for people to say now with hindsight "Why would they sign a lease with a pub management company?". But 5 or so years ago when business was good and the figures looked great, how were they to know that the industry would take a battering and the pubcos would be squeezing them for all they've got? There is due diligence and then there is seeing into the future!

As for the rewiring, why should the landlord have to pay for it? It's not his property after all. The pubco own it. If it was a house the tenant wouldn't have to pay for it. Doesn't seem fair at all.

Oh and 'kickstartbtm', you are probably right about it mainly being suburban pubs closing down. Why do you think that is the case? It seems to be around here as most of the pubs in my local town have been there for years, but they do seem a lot quieter.

Sam.

 

Oh and 'kickstartbtm', you are probably right about it mainly being suburban pubs closing down. Why do you think that is the case? It seems to be around here as most of the pubs in my local town have been there for years, but they do seem a lot quieter.

Sam.

The power of money.

Looks like thats where most business will end up.

Earl

 

[Philip Hoyle]

Some good points being made on both sides here. I think the fact is, most pub landlord are not business peoples as such. They mostly will have worked in the trade for years and taken the next logical step to have their 'own' pub. But otherwise they would not have started up a business. It's easy for people to say now with hindsight "Why would they sign a lease with a pub management company?". But 5 or so years ago when business was good and the figures looked great, how were they to know that the industry would take a battering and the pubcos would be squeezing them for all they've got? There is due diligence and then there is seeing into the future!

As for the rewiring, why should the landlord have to pay for it? It's not his property after all. The pubco own it. If it was a house the tenant wouldn't have to pay for it. Doesn't seem fair at all.

Oh and 'kickstartbtm', you are probably right about it mainly being suburban pubs closing down. Why do you think that is the case? It seems to be around here as most of the pubs in my local town have been there for years, but they do seem a lot quieter.

Sam.

Yes, all goods points, but pubs have been closing down for longer than the past few years. I've been doing accounts/book-keeping, etc., for pubs for the best part of the last 28 years, and remember pubs were closing down in the 1980's and 1990's - it's nothing new.

As for rewiring etc., yes, I agree it wouldn't happen in a house, but business leases are different - they're businesses and tenant repairing leases are common for lots of businesses - not just pubs, but also shops and offices etc. I have a tenant repairing lease for my offices which I know means that I'd have to do whatever repairs are necessary, inside and out - the property owner has no responsibility at all for repairs - that's why I had a survey done before I signed the lease! I know that if it needs a new roof, then I'll be footing the bill for it. You can't just assume that the owner will pay because they'd have to if it was a house!

 

[Consistency]

I am not saying he is completely innocent and that he is a total victim, I have not seen the contract, the pub, the man, the anything aside from the news article but a very good lesson is, is that he should have read the contract. That may well not have saved him.

There are a lot of people who go into businesses feet first and dive in, especially if they have just come into a bundle of money and want to invest. They may be sat in a bar and see all these notes going over the bar and think "wow, that's easy money, I'll have a piece of that".

There are some contracts where changes have to be accepted or leave and if he leaves he throws away all what he has done. I think he is doing the right thing in leaving.

I still have sympathy with him as he is a bloke who is as said earlier trying to make his way in the world. It is not just him, my original post was about so many business owners who are putting their own money in to survive, using their personal savings, cashing in pensions if they had one at all to pay staff redundancies, accumulated holiday pay etc. It is a side of society that seems not talked about and on a business forums, most business owners do not want to and understandably so admit any sign of weakness.

The re-wiring is only a part of the problem and I am sure that article only gives us a snippet of the reality.

 

[Consistency]

The sickening thing would be, if he pays for the rewiring, he is effectly giving £20,000 donation to the next tennants as even with that done, he is still going under.

 

[Gillie]

Yes, all goods points, but pubs have been closing down for longer than the past few years. I've been doing accounts/book-keeping, etc., for pubs for the best part of the last 28 years, and remember pubs were closing down in the 1980's and 1990's - it's nothing new.

As for rewiring etc., yes, I agree it wouldn't happen in a house, but business leases are different - they're businesses and tenant repairing leases are common for lots of businesses - not just pubs, but also shops and offices etc. I have a tenant repairing lease for my offices which I know means that I'd have to do whatever repairs are necessary, inside and out - the property owner has no responsibility at all for repairs - that's why I had a survey done before I signed the lease! I know that if it needs a new roof, then I'll be footing the bill for it. You can't just assume that the owner will pay because they'd have to if it was a house!

Yep I recall my ex - who are the time was an Area Business Banking Manager with the worlds biggest - some 20 odd years ago coming home with tales of various pubs applying and not getting money even then - its nothing new!

I do know that in my particular part of the world - the town next to me has four closed down pubs - within the last year - all boarded up - and yet I can only think of one new one - and that was opened some 5 years ago - a purpose built Wetherspoons.

I do know that the Greater Manchester powers that be are extremely reluctant to change planning permissions on pubs and allow them to be turned in to anything else - which means they merely stand boarded up for a lot of years.

 

[MASSEY]

Who cares if pubs shut down?

Pubs are too expensive for the masses of porpers in this country.

pubs are too expensive to run.

Thus, they are a bad business model in general.

This is why so many are going into food now. Many shut down and refurb to return as food, that's where the money is.

Get out, get into something that makes a living.

 

[10032012]

The rewiring issue MIGHT be a break clause.

If he can dispute the fact that its not his responsibility (unless contractually agreed - was it an FRI lease? If so he has not a leg to stand on) - he could force determination in a court as he could not run the business with the wiring not replaced due to the law and H&S.

I think its likely it would be an FRI case though.

What is the exact specifics here? I do not think there is a possibility of a never-ending lease without a break clause. I could be wrong. Its likely there is no break clause but there must be an end term. I cannot really add anything here without reading the agreement.

 

[10032012]

Who cares if pubs shut down?

Pubs are too expensive for the masses of porpers in this country.

pubs are too expensive to run.

Thus, they are a bad business model in general.

This is why so many are going into food now. Many shut down and refurb to return as food, that's where the money is.

Get out, get into something that makes a living.

Yeah, I do not want to upset anyone here but any pub that has gone out of business in the last 5-10 years that didn't serve food (not talking of peanuts etc.) deserved to shut down.

The life cycle of a business includes Decline and eventually death. If you reach decline you cannot sit it out... you need to seriously focus on rescuing the business. A simple case of running a business you enjoy by refusing marketing - ongoing marketing would have clearly shown other pubs starting to do food and keeping their trade. You cannot blame it all on supermarkets.

 

Yeah, I do not want to upset anyone here but any pub that has gone out of business in the last 5-10 years that didn't serve food (not talking of peanuts etc.) deserved to shut down.

The life cycle of a business includes Decline and eventually death. If you reach decline you cannot sit it out... you need to seriously focus on rescuing the business. A simple case of running a business you enjoy by refusing marketing - ongoing marketing would have clearly shown other pubs starting to do food and keeping their trade. You cannot blame it all on supermarkets.

I suspect the death of pubs is very much to do with financial institutes owning them and letting them out at unaffordable rents.

Which is what is happening to the small town high streets nation wide.

The greed of people who only deal in money has been shown on many occasions to be destructive to societies.IMHO

Earl

 

[QuickHomeBuyers]

I reckon these supermarkets need to controlled.

Pubs
Butchers
Furniture
Off license
Bike shops
Electronics
- Now windows and then god know what is going to be consumed by these supermarkets.