£12/hour for SEO - too cheap?

[creospace]

The person I really need would be a real web all rounder with passion and deep knowledge, these people are thin on the ground and costly.

I have one of these in my sights and see them as central to the next step up in moving the business along. I can see why you would want one.

 

[RayB]

Another valuable post with great advice. We are moving (slowly) towards engineering me out of the nuts and bolts of the business and have some preliminary talks with potential investors in the near future with this in mind. I think one challenge faced by businesses like us is the people we need to replace me for example are not cheap.

d

Yep - good people ain't cheap.

But it all depends what you are trying to achieve - the end game in your business plan.

In our case, to achieve our end game for the first 5 year plan, I needed to build a management team (and the sales/profit to pay for it).

This meant accepting a reduced profit in the short term - to gain in the long term. But it was an easy decision to make once I had the clarity our business plan provided.

That achieved - I now have the time to work on the next 5 year plan and different directions.

 

[adventurelife]

Lots of us here seem to be travelling down the road. The following does not work for every person but you would be suprised how many businesses it does work for and it is not just the big boys. I also have accepted less profit by employing management but that gives me back time which I then have the freedom to decide on how to use it.

In todays environment due to the net you can earn in £ but get a lot of your work done in a different currency and at different rates

I am in the adventure sport business and the majority of what I do is UK based 80% plus. Everything I do is sold in £

My IT systems are from Canada at their rates, My £ buys 2 Can dollars
My suppliers of equipment are from China and I pay in US dollars
Lots and soon to be all my back end work gets done in India or in other locations and I pay in dollars or their local currency

A lot of everyones business can be outsourced to others who can do it just as well at great rates.

Lower fixed overhead and a much more variable cost base = more profit

 

[Annabelle]

Two more points from my side - if someone is really good in a thing that he is doing he must appreciate himself otherwise noone will do it for him. And second, sometimes people choose what is more expensive cause they think that it is better than something cheap. Maybe it's worth to think about it

 

[rickb]

<<<<<
Re: £12/hour for SEO - too cheap?
<<<<<<

It would be really expensive if at the end of the day, it doesn't improve your ranking! ... months down the line!
But it's a lot less expensive that hiring a "SEO expert" at say, £50 an hour and not improving your SE ranking either!
Never pay a consultant by the hour - try to pay by result.

Anyway, there is no "magic" to SEO - a lot could be achieved by getting more quality anchor text links. Here is a simple DIY guide to SEO - read up on how linking works and outsource the donkey work.

 

[creospace]

read up on how linking works and outsource the donkey work.

Your SEO is writing Links your website can't cash!

Whilst i'd agree it's not magic, I think we're all pretty aware that it's far more than just links!

 

[RayB]

Whilst i'd agree it's not magic, I think we're all pretty aware that it's far more than just links!

I cannot begin to describe how much I agree with you (although Ibrian might say otherwise)

The quality of your site is the bedrock, the foundations.

Sure you can link build, but if the site is crap it is like building a house on quicksand............

 

[RedEvo]

Never pay a consultant by the hour - try to pay by result.

A successful SEO outcome is most often a sale of a product or service, in fact that's the only way to put real value on an SEO effort as in most cases a visit isn't worth anything in isolation unless it converts. Making a sale depends on much more than just getting the click, it depends on many factors including the users perception of the offering, the company etc.

To lay all that on the SEO and expect them to risk their income on factors outside their control is unreasonable.

That's my humble opinion.

d

 

[rickb]

Your SEO is writing Links your website can't cash!

I said quality links!
And I repeat - simply "read up on how linking works and outsource the donkey work" ... perhaps to a lower cost country like Latvia!

 

[RayB]

I said quality links!
And I repeat - simply "read up on how linking works and outsource the donkey work" ... perhaps to a lower cost country like Latvia!

Ah, are you based in Latvia????

 

[rickb]

SEO effort as in most cases a visit isn't worth anything in isolation unless it converts

This is something completely different.
SEO could get you the traffic but to get the sale you need good copy, useful products, trust etc.
And I wouldn't advise outsourcing copywriting to someone beyond the geographic borders of your target audience. Not to Eastern Europe ... maybe not even to Scotland!

 

[rickb]

<<<<<<<
Ah, are you based in Latvia????
<<<<<<<

No but I think creospace (who commented on my post) is/was/would be.

 

[RayB]

This is something completely different.
SEO could get you the traffic but to get the sale you need good copy, useful products, trust etc.
And I wouldn't advise outsourcing copywriting to someone beyond the geographic borders of your target audience. Not to Eastern Europe ... maybe not even to Scotland!

Cool, so what ARE you advocating exactly?????

 

A successful SEO outcome is most often a sale of a product or service, in fact that's the only way to put real value on an SEO effort as in most cases a visit isn't worth anything in isolation unless it converts. Making a sale depends on much more than just getting the click, it depends on many factors including the users perception of the offering, the company etc.

To lay all that on the SEO and expect them to risk their income on factors outside their control is unreasonable.

That's my humble opinion.

d

agree success is measured by sales.and your other point

you make sure these things are in your control.

Earl

 

[rickb]

Yep - good people ain't cheap.

But paying more doesn't always get you a superior service! You might just get another cowboy on a fancier horse.

 

[RayB]

But paying more doesn't always get you a superior service! You might just get another cowboy on a fancier horse.

OK - I'm digging here, and the subtle approach did not work, so I'll ask a direct question:

What are you trying to sell?

 

[rickb]

What are you trying to sell?

My apologies ... I didn't realise I am suppose to sell something.
I am more of a consumer here .....
I don't market my services on forums - I let Google (and to a lesser extent MSN and Yahoo!) do that for us.

 

[I, Brian]

Some very interesting points.

Rather than quote endlessly, I'll bullet point:

1. Good rule of thumb in life and in business: "You get what you pay for". Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

2. The most powerful site has:
i) strong on-page SEO platform
ii) strong link profile to extend it

Hopefully that's helpful.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

And I wouldn't advise outsourcing copywriting to someone beyond the geographic borders of your target audience. Not to Eastern Europe ... maybe not even to Scotland!

Steve ain't gonna like that one bit

 

[Mark-UK]

I'll tell you one thing for free, people go on about cowboy SEO's etc but my experience within the last few months, some from sources on here I might add are that we the SEO sometimes have to be careful and are also prone to timewasters of the highest order and people who quite simply mess you around.

 

[JustOneUK]

SEO could get you the traffic but to get the sale you need good copy, useful products, trust etc.

For what it's worth...
No traffic = No sales, and it doesn't matter WHAT you have written on your page.


If an SEO can get you traffic... I would start with that.

 

[RayB]

For what it's worth...
No traffic = No sales, and it doesn't matter WHAT you have written on your page.


If an SEO can get you traffic... I would start with that.

I would start at the other end - what is point of that?

I'd rather 100 visits to a great page that converts, than 10,000 visits to a crap page.

And, with respect, this is where a lot of SEO's get it *totally* wrong....

 

[I, Brian]

SEO is about targeted traffic, fin. Any *competent* SEO should be clued in on that.

 

[creospace]

I said quality links!
And I repeat - simply "read up on how linking works and outsource the donkey work" ... perhaps to a lower cost country like Latvia!

And your point?

I'm British and my clients are british. Anyway back to the subject at hand.

It's obviously clear that assuming a website can convert on SEO alone is like adding salt to boiling water and assuming it will be soup.

 

[JustOneUK]

SEO is about targeted traffic, fin. Any *competent* SEO should be clued in on that.

Absolutely, as it's already targeted traffic it gives your page the best chance of converting.

And, with respect, this is where a lot of SEO's get it *totally* wrong....

Ray you are more than welcome to work backwards. I'm not entirely sure how you will gauge how well a page converts if it has no trafiic... but, well...ermm... oh, never mind.

 

traffic should be your No 1 consideration ,all else is minor considerations that can easly be sorted.If you think any other way you are in trouble before you start.

Earl

 

[RayB]

Ray you are more than welcome to work backwards. I'm not entirely sure how you will gauge how well a page converts if it has no trafiic... but, well...ermm... oh, never mind.

Simple If you understand sales, marketing and calls to action this stuff will come naturally - and is WAY MORE important than SEO/Traffic, for a new site

Get all that right, then spend time tweaking your usability and conversion

 

Simple If you understand sales, marketing and calls to action this stuff will come naturally - and is WAY MORE important than SEO/Traffic, for a new site

Rubbish try telling that to the multitude of poster who come on asking how to get more traffic.

Traffic is king for a website.

all else is minor tweaks,talking to yourself leads to various psychological problems as you well know.

Earl

 

[RayB]

Rubbish try telling that to the multitude of poster who come on asking how to get more traffic.

Traffic is king for a website.

all else is minor tweaks,talking to yourself leads to various psychological problems as you well know.

Earl

Cobblers

What is the point of traffic, if there is nowhere to park............

I'd sort the "car park" first, then get the traffic

 

[JustOneUK]

Cobblers

What is the point of traffic, if there is nowhere to park............

I'd sort the "car park" first, then get the traffic

that's why you are good at being a printer

Let's take a moment to reflect back (once again) to the definition of SEO according to Wikipedia.

Search engine optimization (SEO) is the process of improving the volume and quality of traffic to a web site from search engines via "natural" ("organic" or "algorithmic") search results. Usually, the earlier a site is presented in the search results, or the higher it "ranks", the more searchers will visit that site. SEO can also target different kinds of search, including image search, local search, and industry-specific vertical search engines.
As a marketing strategy for increasing a site's relevance, SEO considers how search algorithms work and what people search for. SEO efforts may involve a site's coding, presentation, and structure, as well as fixing problems that could prevent search engine indexing programs from fully spidering a site. Other, more noticeable efforts may include adding unique content to a site, ensuring that content is easily indexed by search engine robots, and making the site more appealing to users.

An SEO could possibly advise on what MAY help your webpage convert but there are EXPERTS that do this. Knowing what makes a webpage convert well is a trial and error system as shown in a recent thread where an EXPERT trialled two different pages - one made millions and the other broke even, he couldn't have trialled either without traffic.

here's the link to that thread.
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=49847

 

[RayB]

Let's take a moment to reflect back (once again) to the definition of SEO according to Wikipedia.

I don't disagree with any of that

The problem is that SEO should be part of the business, not THE business - and driving traffic to a bunch of crap - is, well, crap

 

[creospace]

It doesn't matter how much traffic you have coming to your site, if the site doesn't 'do it' for the visitor you ain't going to get the sales.

Where it's good copy or design or whatever - site comes first then worry about traffic. Although in fairness a good development company woudl consider all of it at the same time.

 

[RayB]

It doesn't matter how much traffic you have coming to your site, if the site doesn't 'do it' for the visitor you ain't going to get the sales.

Where it's good copy or design or whatever - site comes first then worry about traffic. Although in fairness a good development company woudl consider all of it at the same time.

*Exactly* - It is obvious

 

[JustOneUK]

*Exactly* - It is obvious

Obvious is not a word I would choose.

There are a lot of "not so good" websites out there getting a shed load of traffic and making millions. There are some beautiful well designed and fantastically worded sites out there that get NO traffic and .. well, basically they are going to go broke.

Gimme the traffic (SEO) option instead of the overly webdesigned option EVERYTIME. Webdesign is not the job of an SEO per se, although they see enough to know what is very, very lame and hence are generally pretty well experienced in the "web development" field too.

Traffic is king followed closely by content... and then design. Getting conversions is embedded in there somewhere, but you won't get a single conversion with no traffic.

 

[RayB]

Obvious is not a word I would choose.

There are a lot of "not so good" websites out there getting a shed load of traffic and making millions. There are some beautiful well designed and fantastically worded sites out there that get NO traffic and .. well, basically they are going to go broke.

Gimme the traffic (SEO) option instead of the overly webdesigned option EVERYTIME. Webdesign is not the job of an SEO per se, although they see enough to know what is very, very lame and hence are generally pretty well experienced in the "web development" field too.

OK - in the realms of small business, which is what we are (mostly) here, examples please.............

 

[JustOneUK]

Example of which? Bad site millions or Good site nothing?

 

[RayB]

Example of which? Bad site millions or Good site nothing?

Do you run a real business? That would be a good starting point

 

[JustOneUK]

Do you run a real business? That would be a good starting point

What do you mean?
Are you saying I need to be a printer to know everything about SEO? :|

You lost me completely.

 

[RayB]

What do you mean?
Are you saying I need to be a printer to know everything about SEO? :|

You lost me completely.

No - I am saying that SEO is totally and utterly pointless, if the shed load of other business factors are not considered first

 

[Bathead]

No - I am saying that SEO is totally and utterly pointless, if the shed load of other business factors are not considered first

Every aspect of the business is important. SEO, website, operations, accounts.... blah

A good SEO will want to as understand the business as fully as possible. A good SEO will then want to understand the target audience. There may be aspects of the website the SEO will advise on changing, not only code wise but presentation too. SEO is (should be) an intrinsic part of the business, so yes all areas of the business need to considered. I don't see SEO as a bolt on. And I don't see a choice between SEO or a website, they both go hand in hand.

Mick