2024 Budget Results For Businesses

[Duke Fame]

The bus ticket cap and hospitality business rates relief are COVID hangovers - should we be looking at these being cancelled altogether?

Being on the fringes of hospitality, I understand the extreme issues they had during COVID, but is 4 years of special treatment with rates too much? Many other high street businesses are struggling and do not get this treatment!

You are looking at it the wrong way, if we are trying to give businesses a chance to thrive, we should be removing taxes and costs, not adding them.

It's always seemed so weird that in the UK, we give any number of reliefs and grants to TV & Film yet we tax the bejesus out of proper businesses

 

[Duke Fame]

I thought she said before the election that she wanted growth, I've not seen anything in the media today that any thought has been given to creating growth.

 

[BubbaWY]

I thought she said before the election that she wanted growth, I've not seen anything in the media today that any thought has been given to creating growth.

And the OBR certainly doesnt see any significant growth.

 

[Duke Fame]

One of the most galling parts of the budget was the cheering from the Labour backbenches. Many of whom wont have ever run their own business and not have had any clue on how the budget measures will effect businesses. I know my local MP left uni, worked for a Union and then became an MP. What clue has he got about anything? (I appreciate it would be the same under a Tory budget).

Our Constituency went to Labour this time for the first time ever.

I spoke to him pre-election and I said I needed to know what their plans were for businesses and the economy. He said he'd spoke to lots of businesses and they tell him they want better NHS, more buses and a better environment, I asked him to name one of those businesses as I'd never come across a business that had those priorities.

The kid's 30, went to uni, to study history and got a job at Westminster council and a Labour Councillor at that council. Literally no life experience at all except brown-nosing in the labour party.

Too many MPs are now MPs because it's the best paid job they can get rather than a service having achieved things.

I'd encourage people to have better experience before being an MP. Make MP's pay to be based on their previous 3 years tax returns so they will only receive say 120% of their average earnings over the previous 3 years.

 

[Duke Fame]

And the OBR certainly doesnt see any significant growth.

Yep, 1yr, 5yr, 10yr Gilts have all gone up suggesting the city see very little growth in the economy

 

[Casabian]

There aren't many labour supporting business people.

I don't have figures to back this up any more than you do, but I suspect there will be more supporters of a centrist Labour party among business people than you might think.

That doesn't necessarily mean all those supporters will welcome yesterday's budget, of course. But I think in general - and I admit this is based on anecdote alone, albeit 20+ years worth of anecdote - business people are more pragmatic with respect to party politics than the age-old 'Labour = anti-business' trope would suggest.

Support for a party is not perpetual, of course. And neither is opposition to one. Parties change over time, and every single administration will get some things right and some things wrong. In general I felt the Blair era was a great time to set up a small business. Now, much less so. Some governments are just dealt a much weaker hand, regardless of which party is in charge.

 

[Duke Fame]

I don't have figures to back this up any more than you do, but I suspect there will be more supporters of a centrist Labour party among business people than you might think.

That doesn't necessarily mean all those supporters will welcome yesterday's budget, of course. But I think in general - and I admit this is based on anecdote alone, albeit 20+ years worth of anecdote - business people are more pragmatic with respect to party politics than the age-old 'Labour = anti-business' trope would suggest.

Support for a party is not perpetual, of course. And neither is opposition to one. Parties change over time, and every single administration will get some things right and some things wrong. In general I felt the Blair era was a great time to set up a small business. Now, much less so. Some governments are just dealt a much weaker hand, regardless of which party is in charge.

Labour 1997-2003 were Ok with business and Ok with the economy. It went downhill from then on.

This Labour govt is acting more like a 1974 version of itself, there is very little to encourage business.(for that matter, the Tories were doing a decent impression of Edward Heath’s version too.) Will Kemi be our Maggie?

 

[Daybooks]

The AI Budget.
More incentive to replace employees with Bots

Keep quiet. Rachel will put National Insurance on that too.

Unless of course it allowed me to claim the Employer’s Allowance .

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Double cab pickups are back to being classed as cars for tax purposes!

 

[Duke Fame]

Double cab pickups are back to being classed as cars for tax purposes!

That's interesting, flew under the radar. Compared to the big kick in the teeth to farmers, it's just a punch in the head but still gong to hurt farmers and builders.

Unpeel the layers, she has made a bit of ballsup of all this.

 

[Duke Fame]

What's not been covered in any of the news, possibly because she didn't mention it in the budget speech, is about BADR (Entrepreneurs Relief).

So I'll update UKBF as this is an area of interest for me and there's some small print in the actual budget document published online.

BADR, the concessionary CGT rate of 10% that some business owners can avail of when selling their businesses, goes up.

From 6 April next year, it's 14%. It goes up again a year later to 18%.

Thanks for that, I missed that too.

Sadly, it's a bit too early for Starmer to sack her but it's not good.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Compared to the big kick in the teeth to farmers

I believe that this will only affect under 20% of farmers and there are ways of managing it to be a lot less.

A bit like the bus fares, why should farmers get this preferential treatment and not other business people.

Over they years, there have been too many concessions, deals and under the table agreements to appease certain groups - why can't we all be on the same deal

 

[pentel]

I believe that this will only affect under 20% of farmers

The average farm size in the UK is 217 acres. Average agricultural land value is around £12,000 per acre. so the average farm value is around £2.6m. IHT bill £260,000. The only farms it wont affect are those under around 80 acres, less than half the average size.

 

[Newchodge]

The average farm size in the UK is 217 acres. Average agricultural land value is around £12,000 per acre. so the average farm value is around £2.6m. IHT bill £260,000. The only farms it wont affect are those under around 80 acres, less than half the average size.

But the vast majority are tenant farms. Many of the owners are large companies. And you are ignoring the 1 million tax free allowance.

 

[pentel]

And you are ignoring the 1 million tax free allowance.

£2,600,000 - £1,000,000 = £1,600,000
£1,600,000 * 20% = £320,000

Looks like my calculations were incorrect, but not in the direction you thought!!!

 

[Newchodge]

£2,600,000 - £1,000,000 = £1,600,000
£1,600,000 * 20% = £320,000

Looks like my calculations were incorrect, but not in the direction you thought!!!

Thanks, I just saw 2.6M value, 0.26M tax as a bit simplistic, without thinking about the arithmetic!

 

[Duke Fame]

I believe that this will only affect under 20% of farmers and there are ways of managing it to be a lot less.

A bit like the bus fares, why should farmers get this preferential treatment and not other business people.

Over they years, there have been too many concessions, deals and under the table agreements to appease certain groups - why can't we all be on the same deal

Are you talking about IHT?

If we were running a business, we'd consider what the outcomes we desire are rather than cutting out noses off to spite our faces. We don't go creating a business strategy to hurt people we don't like (TBPH that seems fun but you know what I mean)

 

[UKSBD]

The average farm size in the UK is 217 acres. Average agricultural land value is around £12,000 per acre. so the average farm value is around £2.6m. IHT bill £260,000. The only farms it wont affect are those under around 80 acres, less than half the average size.

How many of those £2.6m are owned outright by 1 person?

 

[DontAsk]

A simple average doesn't say anything about distribution of farm sizes. Those under 80 acres could be the majority with the average skewed by a few large farms. Some farmers are very, very well off.

 

[Duke Fame]

A simple average doesn't say anything about distribution of farm sizes. Those under 80 acres could be the majority with the average skewed by a few large farms. Some farmers are very, very well off.

Some are, the normal IHT rules apply to value of savings etc. The allowances are given to passing on farms as going concerns.

Of an individual farmer has savings of millions of ££££, the normal rules apply.

Valuing agricultural land is fairly difficult and the intention is to keep the farm in family hands if possible.

 

[pentel]

Those under 80 acres could be the majority with the average skewed by a few large farms.

80 acres is 32 Hectares; This is approx the average size of farm, See:

Agricultural facts: Summary

www.gov.uk

Figure 1.4. This shows farm size by area along with the associated data.

 

[Newchodge]

the intention is to keep the farm in family hands if possible.

Why? The owner of a non-agricultural business may want to keep the business in family hands if possible. Why don't they get the same tax exemptions?

 

[DontAsk]

See https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/01/farmers-shocked-budget-inheritance-tax-estates

TLDR:

Clarkson bought a farm specifically to avoid inheritance tax.

Many farms will not be affected.

 

[Clinton]

Why? The owner of a non-agricultural business may want to keep the business in family hands if possible. Why don't they get the same tax exemptions?

Farms are a unique business that benefit from inter-generational care and taking the long term view (decades rather than months or years). Go to businessesforsale.com or Daltons and you won't find farms listed for sale.

Investors and acquirers (apart from oddballs like Clarkson wanting to create some TV) don't generally invest in farms like they do in non-agricultural businesses.

Let's not forget that Labour promised, in order to get elected, that they wouldn't interfere with Agricultural Property Relief.

There may be an ulterior motive behind this - a move away from self-sufficiency in food and a hard-left intention to break up family farms (leading to soviet style collectives or government licensing).

That'll give the government the ability to force more solar panels onto farm land, or to reduce meat production, to meet their stupid net-zero objectives.

 

[DontAsk]

Very few farms affected in practice https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

 

[apricot]

Will we pay a 25% corporation tax for 22-23 filing?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Our Constituency went to Labour this time for the first time ever.

I spoke to him pre-election and I said I needed to know what their plans were for businesses and the economy. He said he'd spoke to lots of businesses and they tell him they want better NHS, more buses and a better environment, I asked him to name one of those businesses as I'd never come across a business that had those priorities.

The kid's 30, went to uni, to study history and got a job at Westminster council and a Labour Councillor at that council. Literally no life experience at all except brown-nosing in the labour party.

Too many MPs are now MPs because it's the best paid job they can get rather than a service having achieved things.

I'd encourage people to have better experience before being an MP. Make MP's pay to be based on their previous 3 years tax returns so they will only receive say 120% of their average earnings over the previous 3 years.

Acording to a interview Nigel Farage stated that none repeat none of the front benches of eith side had anyone who had run a business or been in business as we know it. not sure if true or false about tham but guess its true

 

[pentel]

Very few farms affected in practice https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

This assumes average price of agricultural land is £5000 per acre..... Average, not lowest..... Cant seem to find much if any at that price ( I now expect to see lots of posts linking to really poor quality land! )

 

[Chris Ashdown]

This assumes average price of agricultural land is £5000 per acre..... Average, not lowest..... Cant seem to find much if any at that price ( I now expect to see lots of posts linking to really poor quality land! )

Out of touch these days, but how does inheritance tax vary between selling a business and farms is there any difference

 

[ecommerce84]

Being a NIMBY, why should I, as a driver, be supporting bus users, especially when my local buses are well below the £2 level!

Why should childless people have to pay towards schools? Why do I pay my council tax for them to spend it on adult services that I don’t use? Why should I contribute to the NHS even though I don’t use it?

Bus users are more likely to be from poorer income households, and are quite often unable to afford a car of their own so the £2 bus fare has probably been a big lifeline for some. More people on buses means less people on the roads, which means less traffic which is something every driver wants. And as a bonus, bus travel generally does less damage to the planet than travelling by car.

The £2 bus scheme was a really good policy, and it’s surprising that it was introduced by a Conservative government but even more surprising that it was taken away by a Labour government, reducing the social mobility of the poorest people in the process.

I’m also a car driver but I agree with @MikeJ that I would have rather seen it kept in exchange for a slight hike in fuel duty.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

When you consider the number of people under say 20 who cannot either afford a car / Insurance or teenagers wanting to go to town, gyms or any other pastime and then add on the over 65's who don't want to drive anymore plus quite a few who have never learnt to drive Plus all the people in the country. That adds up to a large % of the country population

 

[Nathanto]

Clarkson bought a farm specifically to avoid inheritance tax.

A friend of mine did exactly the same a few years ago. He bought a 200 acre farm specifically for the tax advantages with no intention whatsoever of doing any proper "farming".

If that was becoming a thing then it was only a matter of time before the rules were changed to try to discourage non-farmers from buying farms.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

That was the thing about the ULEZ, Kahn managed to keep all the poor people out of the city and those who did get in, he made them use the most polluted part of city so they died quicker...genius

uhh? Please explain further.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Which is fine, it's up to individuals to earn enough to meet their lifestyle choices, it's not for businesses to be obliged to pay.

So it's OK for businesses to be obliged to pay if they are over 20, but not below?

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

There aren't many labour supporting business people.

Where did you get that from? I know lots! Probably just over half of my business friends/acquaintances.

You are trying to set up a divide - 'all business people are Conservatives (or others) - simply not the case.

 

[Gill Courage]

There are ways of changing the rules so that the intention is met. Bitching that "rich people" are using methods of avoiding tax is stupid. They set the rules; set them sensibly.
An 80 acre farm is a hobby smallholding and does not sustain a multi-generational family. A real farm cannot survive losing 20% of its value every generation. In a few short years they will all be gone - sold off piecemeal to give the government money to waste. Big corporations are not affected because the death of individual shareholders will not hurt them.
Change the rules on farming to be the same as they were, last week, for family businesses. Only going concerns where the owner is a controlling interest and involved in the business could benefit. It might suit to add, for farmers, that leasing out the land does not count.......wouldn't be the most convoluted rule they have ever come up with. Although, business is business and why should they not all be treated the same?
We are close to retirement and had planned to liquidate the business we have spent decades building and running since we have no kids and no other pension provision. Our business is fully portable. Guess we'll just go abroad (again) - might stay there till we die and dodge the IHT as well. Our business is fully portable.
I'm happy to pay fair taxes but half, or more, of anything extra we work hard for is just not going to happen. The government doesn't seem to realise that many people can simply work less and enjoy life more.
And, as for the "covid dividend" for retail and hospitality............other business sectors have been hit to make up for what was given to them. Our business rates tripled, literally overnight.

 

[HFE Signs]

Personally I feel the Labour Party are playing a very risky game, there will be a lot of SME's who will be tipped over the edge - they are discouraging entrepreneurship, people will question if it's really worth the risks and efforts that come with running your own business.

It is pretty much what we expected from Starmer though, so no real surprise.

Lets hope our money goes into helping the younger generations and the NHS - I'd like to see some speedy results next.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

If the farms were placed into a limited company, would that get around the CGT issue? Or if they are put into a trust?

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I am no political expert and I do lean left, however, to me, it appeared that the previous lot were just kicking the can down the road knowing that it was unlikely they would get back in and just did enough to prevent several services crashing.

I have started another thread, below to discuss what we would do if we were the PM/Chancellor to generate more tax revenue and make running a business easier.

How Would You Generate Revenue For the UK And Make Life Easier For UK SMEs?

Following on from the budget, there is obviously a lot of resistance from (small) businesses. However, I think we all agree that things need changing and the country needs more funds. I do not agree with some of the budget changes, however, does anyone else have ideas on how we could get out...

www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk

 

[Duke Fame]

Where did you get that from? I know lots! Probably just over half of my business friends/acquaintances.

You are trying to set up a divide - 'all business people are Conservatives (or others) - simply not the case.

Perhaps it's different around the country, I'm in Cheshire and the business people do not tend to side with Labour.

I think there was a thought that Labour would be more Tony Blair than Tony Benn so they got a chance, sadly, we have the latter.