Staff member taken vehicle without permission for personal use and had an accident

[J.Js]

One of our staff took a vehicle from our business premises over Easter weekend without our knowledge or permission to collect some timber for their personal use.
They crashed into the back of a car and have badly damaged both vehicles. We suspect the vehicle they hit is written off. Who is liable, us or him? We are unsure whether to let the insurance company know the circumstances cause we don't want them to back out of paying cause we won't have the funds to cover it and strongly suspect our staff member will refuse to. Citation told us we can't force him to pay for it. Any advice on the best way to deal with thus would be helpful.

 

[Newchodge]

One of our staff took a vehicle from our business premises over Easter weekend without our knowledge or permission to collect some timber for their personal use.
They crashed into the back of a car and have badly damaged both vehicles. We suspect the vehicle they hit is written off. Who is liable, us or him? We are unsure whether to let the insurance company know the circumstances cause we don't want them to back out of paying cause we won't have the funds to cover it and strongly suspect our staff member will refuse to. Citation told us we can't force him to pay for it. Any advice on the best way to deal with thus would be helpful.

Report him to the police for taking without consent. Your insurance will then cover it.

Have you ever, in the past, allowed him to do something like this without taking action?

 

[fisicx]

Let the insurance deal with it.

You then take disciplinary action against the thief. This will include reporting the theft to the police.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

We are unsure whether to let the insurance company know the circumstances cause we don't want them to back out of paying cause we won't have the funds to cover it and strongly suspect our staff member will refuse to

Call your Insurer today and submit the claim - they will then deal with the Third Party claim and damage to their vehicle.

Your insurer is unlikely to cover damage to your own vehicle, but it depends on the insurer and policy wording. Speak to them and they will tell you if they will cover your own vehicle.

Citation told us we can't force him to pay for it

Who are Citation? The employee stole a vehicle and caused damage - why do citation say that you cannot pursue the employee for the cost of the damage? Surely he is legally liable for loss or damage?

 

[IanSuth]

presume he means this citation

Health & Safety and Employment Law Services | Citation

Citation provide health & safety and employment law services to small-medium sized businesses across the UK. Contact us today.

www.citation.co.uk

business and legal support for sme's

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Thanks @IanSuth

Citation told us we can't force him to pay for it

So, on what grounds did they say that? Has the employee raised any dispute or comment to say that he had permission to use the vehicle, or it was common practice for employees do use the vehicles for personal use?

 

[Newchodge]

Unless it is written into the contract, which would be unusual, an employee cannot be required to pay for losses arising from a mistake in the course of their employment, so I would probably agree.

However, this was not in the course of their employment and should lead to disciplinary action. It should also be reported to the police as TWOC. Surely the employer's insurance should pay for damage caused to a vehicle during a TWOC?

EDIT: As the vehicle was being driven without permission, if it is not reported t the police will the insurance be invalid? For the third party as well as the employer?

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Surely the employer's insurance should pay for damage caused to a vehicle during a TWOC?

Possibly. If a car is stolen, then yes, damage to the car would be covered. Taking without consent is not theft (as there was intent to return the vehicle) and therefore theft cover under the policy is not relevant. It is down to the Insurer and policy as to whether the damage to their own car is covered.

As the vehicle was being driven without permission, if it is not reported t the police will the insurance be invalid? For the third party as well as the employer?

They will need to speak to their Insurer - who may insist on this being reported to the police. However in my experience this is unlikely to be required in this situation.

The insurance will not be invalid for the third party - the Road Traffic Act will ensure that the insurance policy will still deal with the third party claim. However Road Traffic Act does not deal with their own vehicle, so may find that they have to deal with their own car themselves without support from the insurer.

 

[UKSBD]

Has the employee *borrowed" the vehicle before and a manager just turned a blind eye to it?

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Has the employee *borrowed" the vehicle before and a manager just turned a blind eye to it?

This is very relevant and likely to have a significant impact on the OP's situation!

 

[J.Js]

Has the employee *borrowed" the vehicle before and a manager just turned a blind eye to it?

They have on the odd occasion asked to borrow vehicles, and we have usually given permission if its for a valid reason. The vehicle they took this time was one without a tracker, which is now raised questions as to how many times he may have borrowed it without our knowledge before. We've only found out this time because he had an accident.

 

[J.Js]

Thanks @IanSuth



So, on what grounds did they say that? Has the employee raised any dispute or comment to say that he had permission to use the vehicle, or it was common practice for employees do use the vehicles for personal use?

We aren't sure what grounds other than it seems that employees have the right to pretty much get away with anything and as employers we seem to always just have to suck it up. No it isn't normal for our employees to use vehicles for personal use apart from the odd occasion when they ask permission.
We are now unsure as to whether he has been borrowing it without our knowledge frequently.

Report him to the police for taking without consent. Your insurance will then cover it.

Have you ever, in the past, allowed him to do something like this without taking action?

We aren't aware of him doing this before, but are now wondering if he may have without our knowledge.

 

[J.Js]

Call your Insurer today and submit the claim - they will then deal with the Third Party claim and damage to their vehicle.

Your insurer is unlikely to cover damage to your own vehicle, but it depends on the insurer and policy wording. Speak to them and they will tell you if they will cover your own vehicle.




Who are Citation? The employee stole a vehicle and caused damage - why do citation say that you cannot pursue the employee for the cost of the damage? Surely he is legally liable for loss or damage?

Apparently cause it isn't specifically written into our contract that they have to pay damages, we can't force anything. The law is always on the side of the employees by default, never the employer.

 

[J.Js]

Update:
The employee only gave our details to the driver he hit, and didn't get any from the other party, so we have no way of contacting them. The other party has now gone directly to our insurance company and insurance are asking if we accept liability. We are unsure whether to accept liability, as it was outside of work hours, and being used for personal use without permission. Or do we have to accept liability just because it was our vehicle.

 

[Mark James]

Hang on hang on - have you hauled this employee into the office yet?

 

[UKSBD]

Update:
The employee only gave our details to the driver he hit, and didn't get any from the other party, so we have no way of contacting them. The other party has now gone directly to our insurance company and insurance are asking if we accept liability. We are unsure whether to accept liability, as it was outside of work hours, and being used for personal use without permission. Or do we have to accept liability just because it was our vehicle.

Could just saying, yes, we accept liability, be your best option?

Then sort oput the other matter later.

 

[Newchodge]

Could just saying, yes, we accept liability, be your best option?

Then sort oput the other matter later.

1. Report it to the police.
2. Tell the insurance company the vehicle was being used by an employee without permission.
3. Start the disciplinary process.

For heaven's sake this happened over a week ago. You should have done these things by now.

 

[Newchodge]

The law is always on the side of the employees by default, never the employer.

That is simply not true.

The law is impartial. If you failed to ensure your written contracts covered this kind of damage, that is your fault (or the fault of your advisers), not the fault of the law. You have the power to dismiss this employee. If you don't bother to take action that is a management failing, not a failure of the law.

What has Citation (to whom you are presumable paying a huge sum of money) suggested that you do?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

How important is this person to your business apart from the time he has stolen the van?!

I always agree with at @Newchodge but not today

I would just put it though the insurance or you will bring alsorts of agro on yourself

 

[Newchodge]

How important is this person to your business apart from the time he has stolen the van?!

I always agree with at @Newchodge but not today

I would just put it though the insurance or you will bring alsorts of agro on yourself

Employing someone you cannot trust is never a good idea.

 

[UKSBD]

How important is this person to your business apart from the time he has stolen the van?!

I always agree with at @Newchodge but not today

I would just put it though the insurance or you will bring alsorts of agro on yourself

The real world can be a lot different to what others see.

I used to work on the building for a small building company who had several "pool vehicles"

Several members of staff would drive the vehicles, bosses new about it, never said anything.

I used to take one home, have use of it whenever I liked, used it for picking up stuff whilst doing work on my own house, thought nothing of it (and neither did bosses).

It was only as I got more business savvy and was using forums like UKBF that I realised I probably was never insured for this.

Fortunately, nothing ever happened, but looking back it makes me wonder what would have happened if I had an accident?

Would my bosses have

1. Reported it to the police.
2. Told the insurance company the vehicle was being used by an employee without permission.
3. Started the disciplinary process.

Probably not, as I weas a valued employee/member of the team and they would have just accepted liability and left it to the insurance to sort out.

Had they not, they've suddenly got a number of pool vehicles which people wouldn't then use.

 

[Newchodge]

The real world can be a lot different to what others see.

I used to work on the building for a small building company who had several "pool vehicles"

Several members of staff would drive the vehicles, bosses new about it, never said anything.

I used to take one home, have use of it whenever I liked, used it for picking up stuff whilst doing work on my own house, thought nothing of it (and neither did bosses).

It was only as I got more business savvy and was using forums like UKBF that I realised I probably was never insured for this.

Fortunately, nothing ever happened, but looking back it makes me wonder what would have happened if I had an accident?

Would my bosses have

1. Reported it to the police.
2. Told the insurance company the vehicle was being used by an employee without permission.
3. Started the disciplinary process.

Probably not, as I weas a valued employee/member of the team and they would have just accepted liability and left it to the insurance to sort out.

Had they not, they've suddenly got a number of pool vehicles which people wouldn't then use.

But in this instance there was a system for employees to seek permission to drive vehicles, which was, on occasion, granted. That is a completely different scenario to an employer giving tacit approval by being aware of personal use and not preventing it.

 

[UKSBD]

But in this instance there was a system for employees to seek permission to drive vehicles, which was, on occasion, granted. That is a completely different scenario to an employer giving tacit approval by being aware of personal use and not preventing it.

We don't know that.

The OP may be a hands off business owner who is in the office doing the office work.

They may have managers on site who are more flippant and turn a blind eye to things. (edit to add: until things go wrong)

 

[Newchodge]

We don't know that.

The OP may be a hands off business owner who is in the office doing the office work.

They may have managers on site who are more flippant and turn a blind eye to things. (edit to add: until things go wrong)

We do know that. Have a look at posts 11 and 12.

 

[UKSBD]

We do know that. Have a look at posts 11 and 12.

We are hearing what the OP is saying

We don't know if someone lower in the management chain was asked permission or if it was just the way things were.
ie.
lower management turned a blind eye to blokes ocassionaly using vehicles

I wouldn't be surprised if similar scenarios happen throughout the country every day

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Update:
The employee only gave our details to the driver he hit, and didn't get any from the other party, so we have no way of contacting them. The other party has now gone directly to our insurance company and insurance are asking if we accept liability. We are unsure whether to accept liability, as it was outside of work hours, and being used for personal use without permission. Or do we have to accept liability just because it was our vehicle.

Have you spoken to the employee about how the accident happened?

Was he definitely at fault and caused the accident
- if he is to blame, then accept liability and leave it to insurers.
- If he was not to blame, then tell insurers why you think the other driver is to blame and leave it with to insurers

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I wouldn't be surprised if similar scenarios happen throughout the country every day

Wiltshire police force love trying to find company vans on the M4 with no insurance for the driver when a mistake has been made.
I think they just pull any van over that belongs to a medium to large company just to spot check the driver insurance
I dont think there is any serious crime in Wiltshire