Post Office plan to sack Horizon IT reviewer kept secret, documents reveal

WaveJumper

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    Well the "sh**" show continues there are people here who really should be facing a prison sentence having followed this saga for years now it really has become quite depressing.

     

    fisicx

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    Subscribe to private eye. This isn’t new news.

    And sadly just one of many coverups by many companies, councils and governments.
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    Well the "sh**" show continues there are people here who really should be facing a prison sentence having followed this saga for years now it really has become quite depressing.

    Including the Lawyers of the post office who withheld vital information, lets find out who the legal company was
     
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    Newchodge

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    "Including the Lawyers of the post office who withheld vital information, lets find out who the legal company was"

    I think many of them were in-house, although, certainly not all. There have been some fairly unpleasant comments about them in the Law Society Gazette, and some faced very uncomfortable questioning at the enquiry. I expect the lawyers' regulatory bodies will be taking appropriate action in due course.
     
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    fisicx

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    I expect the lawyers' regulatory bodies will be taking appropriate action in due course.
    A stiff telling off followed by a G&T in the members bar. Judging by how they have dealt with previous complaints.
     
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    eteb3

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    So who can tell me why these shysters have done anything wrong, as directors?

    I’ve never understood how a director can justify applying any ethics to their decisions. They have a duty to promote the success of the company, and if their best judgement is that protecting its brand at all costs is the best way to do that, isn’t that what they have to do?
     
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    prophet01

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    So who can tell me why these shysters have done anything wrong, as directors?

    I’ve never understood how a director can justify applying any ethics to their decisions. They have a duty to promote the success of the company, and if their best judgement is that protecting its brand at all costs is the best way to do that, isn’t that what they have to do?
    Because they also have a duty, in acting to promote the success of the company, to take into account, inter alia:
    • the likely consequences of any decision in the long term
    • the need to foster the company's business relationships with suppliers, customers and others
    • the impact of the company's operations on the community and the environment,
    • the desirability of the company maintaining a reputation for high standards of business conduct.
    ...and, of course, perverting the course of justice is a criminal offence.
     
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    Jass T

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    So who can tell me why these shysters have done anything wrong, as directors?

    I’ve never understood how a director can justify applying any ethics to their decisions. They have a duty to promote the success of the company, and if their best judgement is that protecting its brand at all costs is the best way to do that, isn’t that what they have to do?
    Is your question what they did wrong or why they did wrong...?
     
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    Jass T

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    So who can tell me why these shysters have done anything wrong, as directors?

    I’ve never understood how a director can justify applying any ethics to their decisions. They have a duty to promote the success of the company, and if their best judgement is that protecting its brand at all costs is the best way to do that, isn’t that what they have to do?

    Long term the Post Office brand has been damaged much more than it would have, had they accepted their earlier mistakes. Both financially and has a brand.
    Also their motive for doing it is also one that is questionable. Was it really about trying to protect the Post Office brand. Or was it more about covering up the own reputation and protecting bonuses.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Long term the Post Office brand has been damaged much more than it would have, had they accepted their earlier mistakes. Both financially and has a brand.
    Also their motive for doing it is also one that is questionable. Was it really about trying to protect the Post Office brand. Or was it more about covering up the own reputation and protecting bonuses.
    I have been listening to some of the enquiry evidence. In particular I have listened to some of the investigators. The ones who did the job that the police should have done. One of them said this week that, despite the fact that one of the postmasters he prosecuted, who died some years ago, was posthumously cleared of all wrong doing, he was still convinced that postmaster had been guilty.

    Apart from the appalling failure of the Post Office to ensure that their investigators were fully trained in how to investigate a criminal offence - note, they are supposed to look for all evidence, not just the evidence that convicts, there is a more complicated issue.

    Many of those convicted were not convicted of theft, but of false accounting. They were personally responsible for making good any losses, no matter how they were incurred. Once they had used their savings and re-mortgaged their homes, some falsified their records to hide the shortfalls caused by the computer flaws. Technically, they were guilty of false accounting and that is what the investigators concentrated on - it did not matter whether computer flaws existed, because those persecuted (and I mean that word) HAD falsified their accounts. That offence did not rely on whether the computer was accurate of not.

    I do hope that some of the senior people involved, including the post office legal advisors, do not escape prison for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
     
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    Newchodge

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    I've always believed justice is a balance, yet the Post Office system was simply to collect as much evidence to prosecute, but disallow any evidence or even chance of getting evidence to the contrary - I somehow doubt any will go to prison, just get a strong ticking off.
    I think some of the lawyers involved may be struck off.
     
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    eteb3

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    Apart from the appalling failure of the Post Office to ensure that their investigators were fully trained
    Another issue is the incentives on PO as a private prosecutor: it’s in charge of investigation, disclosure, prosecution, and recovery, and recoveries help its bottom line

    Most importantly, afaict they have no duty to consider whether prosecution is in the public interest (unlike CPS)

    It’s a recipe for corruption and we see it elsewhere: a 70yo neighbour of mine has a conviction for fly-tipping because she mistakenly believed the “entry” alongside her house was hers, her neighbour dobbed her in, and our council which had promised an increase in flytipping convictions went after the lowest hanging fruit. Needless to say, she pleaded guilty.
     
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    eteb3

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    Is your question what they did wrong or why they did wrong...?
    Clearly it’s a moral outrage. My question is whether anything in company law could have stopped a good faith reputation-management strategy that involved shafting the little guy.

    More generally I’m becoming persuaded that the conclusion of a shrill, lefty book I saw reviewed may be correct: corporations are all psychopaths, and are constitutionally prevented from truly ethical behaviour.

    Seems the best we can hope for is that their enlightened self-interest is a tolerable proxy for ethics - but that depends on a realistic chance of being caught, and I have my doubts about that.
     
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    Newchodge

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    My question is whether anything in company law could have stopped a good faith reputation-management strategy that involved shafting the little guy.
    Possibly not in company law (I don't know enough about it) but conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is certainly something to take into consideration.
     
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    japancool

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    I have been listening to some of the enquiry evidence. In particular I have listened to some of the investigators. The ones who did the job that the police should have done. One of them said this week that, despite the fact that one of the postmasters he prosecuted, who died some years ago, was posthumously cleared of all wrong doing, he was still convinced that postmaster had been guilty.

    Apart from the appalling failure of the Post Office to ensure that their investigators were fully trained in how to investigate a criminal offence - note, they are supposed to look for all evidence, not just the evidence that convicts, there is a more complicated issue.

    Many of those convicted were not convicted of theft, but of false accounting. They were personally responsible for making good any losses, no matter how they were incurred. Once they had used their savings and re-mortgaged their homes, some falsified their records to hide the shortfalls caused by the computer flaws. Technically, they were guilty of false accounting and that is what the investigators concentrated on - it did not matter whether computer flaws existed, because those persecuted (and I mean that word) HAD falsified their accounts. That offence did not rely on whether the computer was accurate of not.

    I do hope that some of the senior people involved, including the post office legal advisors, do not escape prison for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    Not only that, but sub-postmasters were made responsible for losses due to armed robbery, despite the post office refusing to upgrade the security systems.

     
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    Russ Michaels

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    It is truly disgusting that they have been allowed to get away with this and put other innocent people in an prison, obviously because of post office links to government. They are obviously all crooked AF.

    Is also proves once be again that being religious and believing in God or having faith does not make anyone a good person or stop them doing evil things.
     
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    Is also proves once be again that being religious and believing in God or having faith does not make anyone a good person or stop them doing evil things.

    “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil – that takes religion.”

     
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    Newchodge

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    WaveJumper

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    I think, and hopefully the public at large are waking up to the fact that you (sweeping statement I know) can’t trust many a big corporation and you certainly shouldn’t be putting your trust and faith in government / politician’s to be doing the right thing. None of this should have happened if those in power had not signed off on a system which they had been told was flawed and like many a “scandal” traces its routes right back to the door of those in government & power at the time including the dear old PM. Big contracts and big money at stake and I wonder how many had their feet firmly in the trough.

    Without side tracking my own thread we could probably start a list of scandals going back over the years for me LIBOR was another such case where innocent people went to prison whilst those at the top. And I mean here again, the top of government Gordon Brown plus those in the Bank of England who were at the heart of this but miraculously all seemed to be able to duck under the radar and put the blame on others. If you fancy an interesting read seek out Andy Verity’s book Rigged
     
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    japancool

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    A subpostmaster is wrongly accused of nicking £200,000 and gets 3 years in prison.

    Carillon collapsed owing £1.3 BILLION. Not one person has gone to jail.

    Michelle Mone defrauds the government of several hundred MILLION. How long do you think she'll get?

    It looks like the more you defraud, the lesser the sentence. What's wrong with this country?
     
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    prophet01

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    Carillon collapsed owing £1.3 BILLION. Not one person has gone to jail.
    This all that happened to the lead protagonists:
    "The Insolvency Service, acting on behalf of the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, has accepted a disqualification undertaking from Richard Howson for 8 years for his conduct as a director of Carillion Plc.
    This follows the disqualification undertakings the Insolvency Service accepted from Zafar Khan on 29 June 2023 and from Richard Adam on 13 July 2023."
    Howson has simply continued his career in the US:
    Disgraced ex-Carillion boss lands senior US role months after UK boardroom ban
     
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    Newchodge

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    This all that happened to the lead protagonists:
    "The Insolvency Service, acting on behalf of the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, has accepted a disqualification undertaking from Richard Howson for 8 years for his conduct as a director of Carillion Plc.
    This follows the disqualification undertakings the Insolvency Service accepted from Zafar Khan on 29 June 2023 and from Richard Adam on 13 July 2023."
    Howson has simply continued his career in the US:
    Disgraced ex-Carillion boss lands senior US role months after UK boardroom ban
    Their auditors, kpmg, were fined £21,000,000. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67087757

    I cannot find any suggestion that the NCA investigated whether anything criminal went on. If there was nothing criminal, they cannot get prison sentences.
     
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