E Bay regard "delivered to an address" as the customer receiving the item.

Justin Smith

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He doesn't have to explain anything. The signature just records that a delivery has been made not where the package was left.
He wouldn't come back on Monday. He only gets paid for deliveries. He delivered; he gets paid.
Returning to the depot means someone else will get the money (drivers don't get the same routes each time).
No matter how you argue it you got the service you paid for. As @Nico Albrecht said: you accepted the eBay TOS which do not require a signature for a low cost item. £82 is low cost.
I have been in the mail order game for 15 years, you are a software bloke, who knows more about the mail order business in general and carriers in particular ? Stop telling me what a carrier would do when I know different.
I would also venture to suggest you do not know much about customer service either.

>>£82 is low cost<<

Really ? Would you like to give me the £82 to cover it then ?
But if £82 is "low cost" what is the 60p that the seller would have had to pay for a signed for delivery ? Something and nothing.
My business would never send out an £82 order without a signed for delivery, NEVER.
 
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Justin Smith

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I'm going to back it up as well once again

There is nothing to explain ,the driver fulfilled their part of the contract with the parcel company
You just wont accept the fact that the driver did nothing wron
Here or she got rid of it and that's all they have to do under the agreement with that company
Maybe I have been unclear. The driver did NOT leave that parcel in a safe place, no way whatsoever.
But, having said that, the party most to blame here is the seller because :

1 - They did not send an £82 order signed for (which would have cost a grand total of 60p extra....)

2 - The seller has appalling customer service. If he wants to be tight and save 60p then HE has to accept the responsibility when it goes wrong.
 
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Justin Smith

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At this stage nobody gives a **** about your £85 parcels and your obsession with a signature for low value items.
Thanks for your empathy but you are wrong old chap.
I am so ****ing mad about this I am determined to publicise the fact that E Bay consider a delivery to an address (even if left in an unsafe place) a delivery to a customer and will then not get involved if it goes missing.
Pretty much all the other posters on all the other forums agree with me that what has happened is appalling, it's totally unacceptable. They almost all blame the driver though, and he is in the wrong, but the seller is even more so. He deserves to go bust and I hope he does.

I am pretty sure I have seen that Evri driver in my shop before, multiple times actually, as we accept parcels for the two flats above and a few of the other other properties around here.
I shall be having a word with him when I see him next....
 
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fisicx

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You are wrong. It’s not the fault of the seller.

The contract was fulfilled.

And £82 is considered a low cost item. Maybe not to you but in a commercial consideration it is.
 
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DontAsk

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Maybe I have been unclear. The driver did NOT leave that parcel in a safe place, no way whatsoever.
But, having said that, the party most to blame here is the seller because :

1 - They did not send an £82 order signed for (which would have cost a grand total of 60p extra....)
No blame whatsoever attaches to the seller for doing that.

2 - The seller has appalling customer service. If he wants to be tight and save 60p then HE has to accept the responsibility when it goes wrong.
You are conflating two completely separate issues. He's may be just an appalling seller, full stop.
 
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fisicx

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I am so ****ing mad about this I am determined to publicise the fact that E Bay consider a delivery to an address (even if left in an unsafe place) a delivery to a customer and will then not get involved if it goes missing.
Of course they won’t get involved. Did you read the T&C? The problem is your designated place of delivery. You chose a location that is insecure.
 
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Justin Smith

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You are wrong. It’s not the fault of the seller.

The contract was fulfilled.

And £82 is considered a low cost item. Maybe not to you but in a commercial consideration it is.
>>You are wrong. It’s not the fault of the seller.<<

Well is sure as hell isn't my fault, so whose fault is it ?

>>The contract was fulfilled.<<

Are you trolling here ?
Maybe you have misunderstood what happened. I never got the item, it never entered my premises as it was left on the pavement side of a locked door.

>>And £82 is considered a low cost item. Maybe not to you but in a commercial consideration it is.<<

Ok, if the seller thinks it's such a small amount he can't be arsed to send it signed for, why doe he not refund me ?
I'll tell you why, because it is not a small amount. If it were, say, a fiver, then a decent E Bay seller would just write it off and send out another for the sake of good feedback. But it isn't it's £82 and he's taken the decision he'll take the hit with a bad feedback score rather than lose possibly £70 (£82 less his profit), and leave his customer to carry the can.
He's a tw8t. and his customer service is so bad he does not deserve to be in business. FACT
 
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Justin Smith

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I can trump that.
My business NEVER sends UK orders of that value (and considerably more) requiring a signature.
But then I don't use Evri. NEVER.
Bearing in mind every carrier we have ever used (TNT, FedEX, APC, DX Express and DX Freight) requires a signature, unless specifically asked to leave without one, who do you use ?
 
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Justin Smith

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Justin Smith said:
Maybe I have been unclear. The driver did NOT leave that parcel in a safe place, no way whatsoever.
But, having said that, the party most to blame here is the seller because :

1 - They did not send an £82 order signed for (which would have cost a grand total of 60p extra....)

No blame whatsoever attaches to the seller for doing that.
How can you possibly say that ?
As a mail order seller it is only acceptable to send out an order without a signature if you are prepared to carry the can if it goes tits up.
He isn't, therefore he is in the wrong
 
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Justin Smith

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Of course they won’t get involved. Did you read the T&C? The problem is your designated place of delivery. You chose a location that is insecure.
You are trolling now.
How is a shop insecure ?
Answer, it's only insecure if it never gets into the shop, which it did not.

I agree that a pavement, which is effectively where it was left, is not secure.
But the delivery address was :

ATV, 419 Langsett Rd,

NOT

Pavement outside ATV 419 Langsett Rd.....
 
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fisicx

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Well is sure as hell isn't my fault, so whose fault is it ?
It is yours - for choosing a location where deliveries can take place when closed. Sensible people designate a safe place at their home address.
Maybe you have misunderstood what happened. I never got the item, it never entered my premises as it was left on the pavement side of a locked door.
Correct. Because that's where you told them to leave it. Read the T&C of both eBay and Evri.
Ok, if the seller thinks it's such a small amount he can't be arsed to send it signed for, why doe he not refund me ?
Why should he? The parcel was delivered to the correct address.
He's a tw8t. and his customer service is so bad he does not deserve to be in business. FACT
No. He fulfilled his part of the contract. The parcel was delivered. it's your fault for not understanding how things work.
 
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There are four parties to this nightmare :

1 - The seller
2 - The carrier
3 - E bay
4 - Me, the buyer

The seller should not have sent out an £82 order with no signature required (almost unbelievably Evri only charge an extra 60p (sixty pence !) for a signature).
The carrier should not have left the order in an unsafe place.
E Bay should not be leaving their customers in the lurch and out of pocket.
The only one who has done nothing wrong is me, and yet I am losing £82, EIGHTY TWO POUNDS !

I will be signing up for Amazon Prime and not using E Bay again, and certainly not for anything over the value of about £10....
If you think about it - but you won't accept it - the only one who has done anything wrong is you.

The seller sent your order that was delivered to the address that you specified. Sending it 'unsigned' is neither here nor there. If the package wasn't delivered the seller would have had to replace it or refund you, then take it up with the delivery company. But it was delivered. To the correct address.

The carrier delivered the package to the specified address. It wasn't 'signed for' so they didn't need to collect a signature. It's not their job to decide whether a place is safe or not to leave a delivery.

eBay can't be blamed and have no reason to get involved. The order was placed and delivered to the specified address. End of story.

You seem to have placed an order on the assumption that it would be sent 'signed for' and the further assumption that if the carrier couldn't get a signature, (to a closed retail shop), that they would call again another day. Those are pretty big assumptions.

Sorry, but there's only one party at fault.
 
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fisicx

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But the delivery address was :

ATV, 419 Langsett Rd,
And the parcel was delivered to that location. Access wasn't possible so they left it next to the door. They had no other option. Taking it back to the depot wasn't an option if they wanted to get paid.
 
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fisicx

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As a mail order seller it is only acceptable to send out an order without a signature if you are prepared to carry the can if it goes tits up.
It didn't go tits up. It got delivered to the address on the order. It just so happens that the address wasn't a safe place. And that's your fault. not the seller, driver, evri or ebay.
 
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You are trolling now.
How is a shop insecure ?
Answer, it's only insecure if it never gets into the shop, which it did not.

I agree that a pavement, which is effectively where it was left, is not secure.
But the delivery address was :

ATV, 419 Langsett Rd,

NOT

Pavement outside ATV 419 Langsett Rd.....
Also, the pavement outside ATV doesn't extend to the shop. There's a small non-pavement area leading to a short flight of steps to the ATV front door at the top of which is a door with a letterbox. Just the place to leave an 'unsigned for' package. Not secure, certainly, but that's not the carriers fault.
 
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Justin Smith

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Also, the pavement outside ATV doesn't extend to the shop. There's a small non-pavement area leading to a short flight of steps to the ATV front door at the top of which is a door with a letterbox. Just the place to leave an 'unsigned for' package. Not secure, certainly, but that's not the carriers fault.
>>Not secure, certainly, but that's not the carriers fault<<

You've just contradicted yourself right there.
 
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fisicx

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Ahh, so you are trolling.
So despite all posts suggesting you are mistaken in your accusations your only response is to accuse me of trolling. It would be amusing if it wasn’t so sad.
 
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Justin Smith

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If you think about it - but you won't accept it - the only one who has done anything wrong is you.
The seller sent your order that was delivered to the address that you specified. Sending it 'unsigned' is neither here nor there. If the package wasn't delivered the seller would have had to replace it or refund you, then take it up with the delivery company. But it was delivered. To the correct address.
The carrier delivered the package to the specified address. It wasn't 'signed for' so they didn't need to collect a signature. It's not their job to decide whether a place is safe or not to leave a delivery.
eBay can't be blamed and have no reason to get involved. The order was placed and delivered to the specified address. End of story.
You seem to have placed an order on the assumption that it would be sent 'signed for' and the further assumption that if the carrier couldn't get a signature, (to a closed retail shop), that they would call again another day. Those are pretty big assumptions.
Sorry, but there's only one party at fault.
This is utter cobblers.

You seem to have placed an order on the assumption that it would be sent 'signed for' and the further assumption that if the carrier couldn't get a signature, (to a closed retail shop), that they would call again another day. Those are pretty big assumptions.

This is not a £5 order and as such they are not "pretty big assumptions", they are the assumptions anyone would make, particularly for an £82 order. In fact, from memory, I cannot remember receiving an order of that value without having to sign for it.

The long and short of it is part of the reason I am so ****ing angry is I would never treat one of my customers like that **** treated me. As I have said more than once, with an appalling attitude to his customers like he has I do not think he deserves to be in business and I hope he goes bust.
There's a reason why he has not got 100% positive feedback.

The only thing I did wrong was forget that 98.5% positive feedback is actually not that good.
 
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fisicx

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fisicx

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I missed this bit, where does the OP say that?
Where they said it was to be delivered to their shop. But the shop was closed so the driver did what all drivers do and left it by the door.
 
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fisicx

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All drivers? Not round here they don't........
If you read my first post I said the service you get depends on the driver.

The argument from Justin has consistently been that blame is apportioned to the seller. This is fundamentally incorrect. The seller has no control over the actions of the driver and can not be held responsible for the theft of the item. Especially as there is photographic evidence of delivery to the designated address.
 
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Justin Smith

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To those on here who seem to be arguing that an Evri driver would leave a parcel anywhere first time and never come back (even if it is "signed for"), and, even more controversially, arguing he would be right to do that, what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

Left the £82 order on our steps as that, it could conceivably be argued, is our "land" ?

And what if it got wet ?
Whose responsibility would that have been ?
 
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Justin Smith

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Cheap service and you got what you paid for
I didn't pay for it not choose which carrier to use, the seller did. And if he knows that Evri provide crap service then it is HIS responsibility, not mine.
Note, I was not given the option to ask for signed for delivery, that is yet more reason why this is the seller's fault. As I have said numerous times, any mail order seller should only ever send anything out unsigned for if HE is prepared to carry the can if it goes wrong.
 
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Newchodge

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    If you read my first post I said the service you get depends on the driver.

    The argument from Justin has consistently been that blame is apportioned to the seller. This is fundamentally incorrect. The seller has no control over the actions of the driver and can not be held responsible for the theft of the item. Especially as there is photographic evidence of delivery to the designated address.
    Except that is the seller's responsibility, alone, to ensure safe delivery of the item to the recipient. If they choose to use a courier whose drivers don't perform, that is the seller's fault.
     
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    To those on here who seem to be arguing that an Evri driver would leave a parcel anywhere first time and never come back (even if it is "signed for"), and, even more controversially, arguing he would be right to do that, what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

    Left the £82 order on our steps as that, it could conceivably be argued, is our "land" ?

    And what if it got wet ?
    Whose responsibility would that have been ?
    It's your responsibility to provide a secure (and dry) place to have parcels delivered. If that isn't your workplace, find somewhere that is secure. It's the same reason I don't have parcels delivered to my home. There is no safe (or dry) place to leave a parcel. So I have all parcels delivered to somewhere that is.
     
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    Nico Albrecht

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    I didn't pay for it not choose which carrier to use, the seller did. And if he knows that Evri provide crap service then it is HIS responsibility, not mine.
    I have a different opinion. If you visit any eBay listing for the product and click on the "postage and payment" section, you can view the delivery service chosen by the seller. This allows me to determine the delivery provider before making a purchase. In situations involving Evri, I either provide my home address or request the seller to use an alternative service, and I am willing to pay extra if it helps avoid potential issues. Additionally, with Evri, there's the option to reschedule or redirect parcels, so the recipient could have chosen to reschedule delivery for Monday.

    Except that is the seller's responsibility,

    Two thoughts arise in this context. Firstly, since it's a business address, it might be regarded as a business transaction, potentially falling outside the scope of consumer law. I wonder if this also applies to business-to-business (B2B) transactions.


    Furthermore, I find it puzzling that eBay is promptly siding with the seller, contrary to its usual buyer-friendly stance. Given eBay's historical inclination to favor buyers in a majority of cases, the deviation in this particular situation suggests the existence of a provision in their terms of service, agreed upon by the buyer. This provision may permit the parcel to be considered delivered upon reaching the seller's premises. My suspicion is that eBay has legally confirmed this arrangement, allowing them to endorse a substituted nominated delivery service as fulfilled once it arrives at the seller's property.

    As for assigning blame or determining actual responsibility, it's unclear in this scenario. The seller purchases discounted labels from eBay, not directly from a carrier, and eBay seems to assert its position confidently in this case.

    From citizens advise :

    Your item was delivered by a courier​

    Check your terms and conditions or account details - they might include other places for delivery, like your porch or a neighbour’s house. If you agreed to them, it’s not the seller’s responsibility if your order has gone missing.

    I believe eBay managed to secure legal coverage through the terms of service agreed upon by the buyer, absolving both the seller and eBay from any liability.




    I understand that the current situation is less than ideal for the buyer, with eBay seemingly operating within the framework of terms of service that may not be favorable. The most advisable course of action might be to address the issue with the payment provider through a dispute. Additionally, for future transactions, it's essential for buyers to carefully read and understand the terms of service they agreed to before making a purchase. Taking responsibility and being accountable for choosing a service that aligns better with their specific needs is also a prudent approach.

    Just my thoughts here. I might be wrong!
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    It's your responsibility to provide a secure (and dry) place to have parcels delivered. If that isn't your workplace, find somewhere that is secure. It's the same reason I don't have parcels delivered to my home. There is no safe (or dry) place to leave a parcel. So I have all parcels delivered to somewhere that is.
    Exactly this its no longer a five day week as far as internet sales deliveries are concerned
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Justin Smith said:
    To those on here who seem to be arguing that an Evri driver would leave a parcel anywhere first time and never come back (even if it is "signed for"), and, even more controversially, arguing he would be right to do that, what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?

    It's your responsibility to provide a secure (and dry) place to have parcels delivered. If that isn't your workplace, find somewhere that is secure. It's the same reason I don't have parcels delivered to my home. There is no safe (or dry) place to leave a parcel. So I have all parcels delivered to somewhere that is.
    Hold on a sec !
    Nobody is ever in at a particular address all the time, and, of my addresses the chances of someone being in, particularly during the working day is FAR higher at my shop.
    And most people do not live somewhere and have place where an item can just be left and be safe because, by defintion, if the driver can get into it then so can anyone else.

    But I do not believe you have answered the question I posed :

    what, in your esteemed opinion, would he have done if the front door to our porch had been locked ?
     
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