The problem with website designers

[japancool]

My day job is in IT, but as my boss knows I also work in e-commerce, he asked me if I knew anyone who could redesign their website.

I said I do but... none of them would be appropriate for what he wants.

The issue is that we operate in a very niche industry. We don't need to rank on Google, we don't advertise and we don't need a social media presence. Most of the designers he's approached fall into one of two categories - they either want to re-do the whole thing with bells, whistles and dancing girls (and run to tens of thousands of pounds), or they're just going to use pre-made templates and whack a bit of content on it, probably outsourced to someone in India to do.

What we want is a simple, professional looking site that's not going to age quickly. Our current site runs on Wordpress, is "kinda" responsive, and has about 20 pages - we probably only need 5. It perhaps needs the occasional update, but it needs to be simple, and effective. No blogs, and definitely no pictures of staff. We might update the occasional video or bit of text, but that's it.

My boss is the kind of person who knows exactly what he's looking for - the moment anyone starts suggesting things we don't want or didn't ask for, he'll just switch off and chances are, put the phone down. The question is... well, I'm not entirely sure what we're looking for, but it's definitely not someone who primarily specialises in e-commerce sites. Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

 

[ctrlbrk]

and definitely no pictures of staff

Why? Do you have a bad tattoo?

 

[Blood Lust]

My day job is in IT, but as my boss knows I also work in e-commerce, he asked me if I knew anyone who could redesign their website.

I said I do but... none of them would be appropriate for what he wants.

The issue is that we operate in a very niche industry. We don't need to rank on Google, we don't advertise and we don't need a social media presence. Most of the designers he's approached fall into one of two categories - they either want to re-do the whole thing with bells, whistles and dancing girls (and run to tens of thousands of pounds), or they're just going to use pre-made templates and whack a bit of content on it, probably outsourced to someone in India to do.

What we want is a simple, professional looking site that's not going to age quickly. Our current site runs on Wordpress, is "kinda" responsive, and has about 20 pages - we probably only need 5. It perhaps needs the occasional update, but it needs to be simple, and effective. No blogs, and definitely no pictures of staff. We might update the occasional video or bit of text, but that's it.

My boss is the kind of person who knows exactly what he's looking for - the moment anyone starts suggesting things we don't want or didn't ask for, he'll just switch off and chances are, put the phone down. The question is... well, I'm not entirely sure what we're looking for, but it's definitely not someone who primarily specialises in e-commerce sites. Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

The first thing to do is to get some clarity from him over what he is after. I would ask him to put on an email what features it needs and what it might need over the next two years.

I am tempted to say ignore him about the professional templates as we both know thats going to be the cheapest and easiest option. I would create some free logins to cheap website creation sites and put together a few 5 page prototypes. It wont cost anything because you wont be taking any of them live.

Print them off and go show him. Ask if he likes any, or parts of any, and what he doesnt like. If he picks one thats great, if not you will need to take what he likes and dislikes onboard and create another prototype.

Once he is happy tell him the monthly cost and offer to manage it for him seeing as you know about e-commerce. Point out you can see through all BS so can prevent sales calls trying to get him to signup to extras.

 

[japancool]

I am tempted to say ignore him about the professional templates as we both know thats going to be the cheapest and easiest option.

"Cheap" is not a consideration. He's not prepared to spend thousands on it, but he'll spend what he needs to spend.

I would create some free logins to cheap website creation sites and put together a few 5 page prototypes. It wont cost anything because you wont be taking any of them live.

I'm not going to do it myself. I don't have the time, and I'm not a designer.

If he's shown a design based on a template, it will be rejected. There wouldn't even be a discussion.

 

[Fagin2021]

I'm not a web designer but I've built a few simple 'brochure' sites for friends and it's been an absolute nightmare dealing with people who know only what they don't want. You go back and forth, back and forth until everyone is thoroughly irritated and both of you wish you'd never started.

I learned to say, "scour the internet until you find a site you like and we'll discuss it from there". Probably not the best approach but it gives you a starting point. Of course, you'll still have to provide the content.

 

[fisicx]

The problem with almost all designers is they begin with the design.

The proper way to begin is with research. This will dictate the content from which you get the structure and then finally worry about what it looks like.

Nobody really cares about what your website looks like. As long it's easy to navigate, has the right content, there are trustmarks and obvious calls to action it will convert.

Every single site in the world is based on a template. It might be a custom template but it's still a template. No designer starts from scratch, they all use a set of standard modules to build the template.

 

[Byzantium]

Not too far away from why I came here to ask a few questions.

Every designer slags off every other designer and everyone who says they can build a website says the website you currently have is crap and they could build one so much better. The simple fact is that whilst they cannot all be right, they can in fact all be wrong !

Most don't listen or they only hear half what you say and when they send it away to the 3rd world to get the technical assistance you thought they had in house then your project is largely screwed from day one.

In the end, this is why I have looked at templates, as in Shopify, because whilst far from perfect as everyone who is a designer has told me (strange that isn't it ?) it removes the need for the design part of the problem and if say only 1 in 20 actually knew what they were talking about, then my guess is that Shopify is better than a 5% crapshoot you hit the right guy.

But 20/20 will say that this is wrong without coming up with a viable alternative that isn't costed based on a "how much money have you got ?" type of project build estimate.

If you find someone, let me know, please !

 

[LPB 123]

Not too far away from why I came here to ask a few questions.

Every designer slags off every other designer and everyone who says they can build a website says the website you currently have is crap and they could build one so much better. The simple fact is that whilst they cannot all be right, they can in fact all be wrong !

Most don't listen or they only hear half what you say and when they send it away to the 3rd world to get the technical assistance you thought they had in house then your project is largely screwed from day one.

In the end, this is why I have looked at templates, as in Shopify, because whilst far from perfect as everyone who is a designer has told me (strange that isn't it ?) it removes the need for the design part of the problem and if say only 1 in 20 actually knew what they were talking about, then my guess is that Shopify is better than a 5% crapshoot you hit the right guy.

But 20/20 will say that this is wrong without coming up with a viable alternative that isn't costed based on a "how much money have you got ?" type of project build estimate.

If you find someone, let me know, please !

Does the OP want an ecommerce site though? So I don't think Shopify is suitable for this particular site.

OP I think you do need someone to just put some content on a template for such a simple site like this. They just need to be a good designer and that will make it look good. Think more graphic designer with website experience than Web designer with graphics experience.

If your boss knows what they want then the brief should be tight and therefore easy to get something they'll be happy with.

 

[japancool]

Does the OP want an ecommerce site though? So I don't think Shopify is suitable for this particular site.

No, we're specifically not looking for an e-commerce site. That's one of the issues, many designers or agencies specialise in e-commerce, which has different considerations.

 

[DontAsk]

Five pages of static content? HTML did me fine for a good few years, including "e-commerce".

 

[japancool]

Good for you.

 

[KM-Tiger]

The issue is that we operate in a very niche industry. We don't need to rank on Google, we don't advertise and we don't need a social media presence.

I have a client in a very similar situation.

They created their own brochure-type site using Wix. It does its job and they are very pleased with it. They are perfectly aware of the limitations, but don't have need of more.

I know many people scoff at Wix, but there are cases where it provides a good solution.

 

[ctrlbrk]

I know many people scoff at Wix, but there are cases where it provides a good solution.

I don't know if people scoff at Wix for my same reasons, but 4 out of 5 Wix sites I visit (on average) are unusable from a UX point of view. Menu navigation simply does not work.

 

[DontAsk]

Good for you.

You'rev welcome.

 

[antropy]

I'm not entirely sure what we're looking for, but it's definitely not someone who primarily specialises in e-commerce sites

Haha well that rules us out then!

Paul.

 

[antropy]

Nobody really cares about what your website looks like.

Highly questionable. Humans are visual animals and attractive design sells.

Paul.

 

[fisicx]

Highly questionable. Humans are visual animals and attractive design sells.

Paul.

What I meant was they aren’t too fussed about the details. As long as the general shape of the site is ok they will use it quite happily.

 

[antropy]

What I meant was they aren’t too fussed about the details. As long as the general shape of the site is ok they will use it quite happily.

So design doesn't matter as long as it's good, I see

Paul.

 

[fisicx]

So design doesn't matter as long as it's good, I see

Paul.

You know exactly what I mean.

For example, it might spend weeks finding the exact shade of green when no two people will ever see it the same way you so. Same with font families and the hundreds of other minor styling elements people fuss over. It really doesn’t matter.

I’ve done a lot of testing on this and even with major changes and experiments with minimalist and complex layouts and it made no difference to conversions. The only thing that did was adding sliders and animations. And that was to reduce conversions.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Same with font families and the hundreds of other minor styling elements people fuss over. It really doesn’t matter.

It does matter if you cannot read the text!

There seems to be a fashion that has developed to put very light grey text on a white background. I find I simply cannot read it and click away somewhere else. An example is the GBNews website.

 

[fisicx]

It does matter if you cannot read the text!

There seems to be a fashion that has developed to put very light grey text on a white background. I find I simply cannot read it and click away somewhere else. An example is the GBNews website.

Indeed. Usability and accessibility often get forgotten in the desire to by hip and funky.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

My day job is in IT, but as my boss knows I also work in e-commerce, he asked me if I knew anyone who could redesign their website.

I said I do but... none of them would be appropriate for what he wants.

The issue is that we operate in a very niche industry. We don't need to rank on Google, we don't advertise and we don't need a social media presence. Most of the designers he's approached fall into one of two categories - they either want to re-do the whole thing with bells, whistles and dancing girls (and run to tens of thousands of pounds), or they're just going to use pre-made templates and whack a bit of content on it, probably outsourced to someone in India to do.

What we want is a simple, professional looking site that's not going to age quickly. Our current site runs on Wordpress, is "kinda" responsive, and has about 20 pages - we probably only need 5. It perhaps needs the occasional update, but it needs to be simple, and effective. No blogs, and definitely no pictures of staff. We might update the occasional video or bit of text, but that's it.

My boss is the kind of person who knows exactly what he's looking for - the moment anyone starts suggesting things we don't want or didn't ask for, he'll just switch off and chances are, put the phone down. The question is... well, I'm not entirely sure what we're looking for, but it's definitely not someone who primarily specialises in e-commerce sites. Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

What you've described is exactly what we wanted and got.
Drop your name and number in a PM with some brief details and I'll put in front of my web guy.
He writes everything from scratch.

 

[webchap]

Some interesting comments and a good debate. I’ve been designing websites for over 20 years now and never farmed anything out to India although I have taken on sites for clients who have been down that route and as the old saying goes, buy cheap, buy twice.

You say the site uses WordPress but now only needs to be 5 pages. If it is only rarely going to be updated (2-3 times a year?) then no real need to use WordPress with its constant plugin updates. Clean coded HTML5 would be better and faster loading with manual updates as and when.

In regards to what the client wants, I’ve had it all, a graphic designer has sent me a pixel perfect version of what they want and I’ve matched it up perfectly and I’ve also had a client draw a sketch of what they want on a piece of paper and said “make it look funky” ??‍

Happy to offer any advice on DM if required.

 

[japancool]

Just to clarify - the decision isn't up to me. I've been asked to recommend anyone I know who could do the job. Feel free to message me a portfolio or a site that matches what I've described, and I will pass it on to the FD, but it's him who will ultimately choose.

 

[webchap]

Sure, DM sent

 

[antropy]

Just to clarify - the decision isn't up to me. I've been asked to recommend anyone I know who could do the job. Feel free to message me a portfolio or a site that matches what I've described, and I will pass it on to the FD, but it's him who will ultimately choose.

Here are our non-ecommerce sites just in case: https://www.antropy.co.uk/portfolio/cms/

Paul.

 

[antropy]

I’ve done a lot of testing on this and even with major changes and experiments with minimalist and complex layouts and it made no difference to conversions.

There must be a reason big companies spend small fortunes on design and branding though

Paul.

 

[fisicx]

There must be a reason big companies spend small fortunes on design and branding though

Paul.

To often they listen to marketing wonks.

Nationwide has just changed their logo. The new one is naff. But do any nationwide customers care? I’d suggest not.

There was a survey a while back where people were asked to draw famous logos. Almost everyone got it wrong.

Can you accurately describe the Starbucks logo? Have a go then visit their website to see how wrong you were.

 

[antropy]

Nationwide has just changed their logo. The new one is naff. But do any nationwide customers care? I’d suggest not.

You've never read The E-Myth then? That goes into detail about how small details such as colours and shapes have a noticeable affect on sales and conversions in all aspects of business ranging from logos and websites to the colour of suits that sales people wear (blue is best btw).

Can you accurately describe the Starbucks logo? Have a go then visit their website to see how wrong you were.

I was pretty close with "an illustrated woman in a dark green circle with lines radiating outwards", but then I have a graphic design degree.

Paul.

 

[fisicx]

You've never read The E-Myth then? That goes into detail about how small details such as colours and shapes have a noticeable affect on sales and conversions in all aspects of business ranging from logos and websites to the colour of suits that sales people wear (blue is best btw).

Yes. But it's an old book and whilst some of the concepts are still valid many are out of date. Colours and shapes may have some influence but the detail less so. 50px circle or a 48px circle doesn't matter. It's the circle people see.

I was pretty close with "an illustrated woman in a dark green circle with lines radiating outwards", but then I have a graphic design degree.

This just proves my point - it was the general shape of the logo you recalled not the details.

 

[japancool]

50px circle or a 48px circle doesn't matter. It's the circle people see.

Well, the size of the font does matter in terms of useability. The font face may not - although serif fonts and sans serif fonts give a different impression of the goods or service you offer.

 

[fisicx]

Well, the size of the font does matter in terms of useability. The font fact may not - although serif fonts and sans serif fonts give a different impression of the goods or service you offer.

Agree. Usability and accessibility are far more important to conversions than the exact shade of green you use in a border.

Sans-serif is generally a better choice for readability. But you also need to consider line length and the FOG index. Which means you may need to adjust the width of your content get the right balance for your target readers. In other words, the design is dictated by the content which is created for your target customer.

 

[antropy]

This just proves my point - it was the general shape of the logo you recalled not the details.

Ahh but I also remembered it looked totally professional and well made. If it appeared slightly bodged I would have picked up on that and remembered it. Design obviously does matter and pixel perfectness does matter also. Even if most people don't have a design background they can sense when something is slightly off.

Paul.

 

[fisicx]

Ahh but I also remembered it looked totally professional and well made. If it appeared slightly bodged I would have picked up on that and remembered it. Design obviously does matter and pixel perfectness does matter also. Even if most people don't have a design background they can sense when something is slightly off.

I agree with you. But if you just use Arial for you website font nobody is going get upset. If you use #080808 instead of #000000 nobody would ever notice.

And they might think something is a bit wonky with the logo but eye tracking shows they move on within a fraction of a second. The wonky logo might even be something they remember and return to the site because it wasn't perfect.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Just to clarify - the decision isn't up to me. I've been asked to recommend anyone I know who could do the job. Feel free to message me a portfolio or a site that matches what I've described, and I will pass it on to the FD, but it's him who will ultimately choose.

You've described what isn't wanted but I must have missed the bit where you said what you did want?

 

[japancool]

You've described what isn't wanted but I must have missed the bit where you said what you did want?

Better to show the FD a portfolio, and if he decides to go ahead, he can discuss that directly with the web designer.

 

[fisicx]

The problem with portfolios is people often focus on the design and miss the fact that the website is often ineffective. As is the case with many sites that are seen in the website review forum.

 

[japancool]

The problem with portfolios is people often focus on the design and miss the fact that the website is often ineffective. As is the case with many sites that are seen in the website review forum.

He will look at the sites and decide whether he thinks the designer can come up with something that he wants.

"Effectiveness" isn't so important in the normal sense for us. Our site isn't there to attract new customers, it's for the benefit for our existing customers.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Better to show the FD a portfolio, and if he decides to go ahead, he can discuss that directly with the web designer

I'm with fisicx on this one. My webguy's portfolio is not representative of what he does for us. I want a CRM Database, he does it. I want something special added, he does it. I want an e-store he does it and it's those that you'll see on his own site.

 

[Paul Carmen]

We build sites to the spec that clients need, but crucially we inject customer and market research, plus lead gen and conversion knowledge into the process. The aim is to deliver a profitable outcome.

Most clients either work closely with us, or are led by the research/insights, and these projects tend to be very successful. These sites don't always look that pretty, but are led by customer journeys and a commercial/business goals.

Some are very prescriptive about what they want a site to look like and aren't interested in customers, research and data, these projects often flounder or waste a lot of money/time, as they border on vanity projects.

Our portfolio is about projects that have delivered big updates in leads, sales, calls, reduced PPC cost etc, some good looking sites don't even feature on it.

I've read the thread and I'm not really sure what is wanted. It could be called "the problem with customers", as HIPPO effect led projects are always problematic, often with no thought to customers, copy, images, purpose of the site, behaviour on different devices, system integrations etc.

If he knows what he's looking for, he should articulate it as a brief, with what's needed and what's isn't clearly detailed, then people can quote properly for the work.