Possible House Tenant Issue

[Helpneededfast]

We purchased a house for our daughter and while it has been refurbed she has married her short term bf, who have moved in a month ago. Now her husband who is from a very extended family has mentioned to my daughter last week that his uncle may be coming up for a few months along with "other family members", he has not asked me and put my daughter under pressure - she has said she will see what I say.. My issue is I do not want a situation where the other 9 people turn up and refuse to move out, as they are in rented property in London and struggling paying bills.

What can I do?

There is no tenancy agreement in place, should I get one and how do I put the exclusion in about other people? I am trying to be reasonable and trying to protect my investment..

TYIA

 

[fisicx]

Is your daughter paying rent?

Even with a tenancy agreement in place it doesn't stop someone coming to stay for an extended period. Unless you stand on the doorstep and block entry your son-in-law can invite anyone they like over the threshold. If there is a tenancy agreement in place you can take action to have them removed but if they claim to be homeless or they are just a guest then you may struggle to get them removed.

Everything begins with the terms of occupancy that your daughter has with her husband.

 

[ethical PR]

We purchased a house for our daughter and while it has been refurbed she has married her short term bf, who have moved in a month ago. Now her husband who is from a very extended family has mentioned to my daughter last week that his uncle may be coming up for a few months along with "other family members", he has not asked me and put my daughter under pressure - she has said she will see what I say.. My issue is I do not want a situation where the other 9 people turn up and refuse to move out, as they are in rented property in London and struggling paying bills.

What can I do?

There is no tenancy agreement in place, should I get one and how do I put the exclusion in about other people? I am trying to be reasonable and trying to protect my investment..

TYIA

It's an issue between your daughter and her new husband.

If my partner suggested this - my answer would be 'hell no'. Not sure why your daughter feels under pressure. She can just confirm that the house is too small/impact on utilities/being a newly married couple and needing space. It's not her responsibility to accommodate his family.

Her husband doesn't need to ask you. You can't exclude people from the property.

In your daugher's situation she will probably find it easier to say that she has spoken to you and you aren't comfortable having this happen so his relatives would need to find accommodation elsewhere within his extended family.

 

[HFE Signs]

Can't you just be honest and say you are not happy for them to come and stay, it's your property

 

[fisicx]

Can't you just be honest and say you are not happy for them to come and stay, it's your property

Would that apply to all visitors? Does it mean nobody can ever come to stay?

What we don’t know is the tenancy arrangements. Maybe the daughter is paying the mortgage.

 

[HFE Signs]

Would that apply to all visitors? Does it mean nobody can ever come to stay?

What we don’t know is the tenancy arrangements. Maybe the daughter is paying the mortgage.

Yes it would, if his daughter isn't happy with them coming then they wouldn't be let in. Sorry, I'm old school and sometimes its a case of standing up for yourself otherwise people will walk all over you.

 

[Helpneededfast]

Would that apply to all visitors? Does it mean nobody can ever come to stay?

What we don’t know is the tenancy arrangements. Maybe the daughter is paying the mortgage.

No tenancy agremeent in place as mentioned in the intiial post! I own it and the idea before her marraige was to let her live there at the same rental value as her her house, but the money would be in a bank account when she wants to move up.

 

[Helpneededfast]

Would that apply to all visitors? Does it mean nobody can ever come to stay?

What we don’t know is the tenancy arrangements. Maybe the daughter is paying the mortgage.

Well they have 6 children from a previous marraige (just discovered) coming over from Holland for 2 weeks holiday, we have no issue with that, as we know they will be returning to Holland.

Your first sentence was a little juvenile and the second sentence shows you didnt read the initial post.

But thanks for oyur none comment.

 

[Newchodge]

Well they have 6 children from a previous marraige (just discovered) coming over from Holland for 2 weeks holiday, we have no issue with that, as we know they will be returning to Holland.

Your first sentence was a little juvenile and the second sentence shows you didnt read the initial post.

But thanks for oyur none comment.

I believe, if there is no tenancy agreement, you cn impose whatever terms you like. If they are in breach you can evicct them wothout notice or legal action.

 

[HFE Signs]

Would anyone here allow a group of people to rock up at their house and let them stay, thought not. Agreement or not, it doesn't make any difference, its not a free for all. Tell them they are not staying and send them on their merry way - I have no time for freeloaders

 

[Gyumri]

I believe, if there is no tenancy agreement, you cn impose whatever terms you like. If they are in breach you can evicct them wothout notice or legal action.

The extended family of the OP's son in law would be the OP's bare licensees and "would" have to leave upon giving them reasonable notice.

The liberty which the new husband is taking in even suggesting that his family come and occupy the property is not a good sign for anything.

 

[ethical PR]

He has six previous children and has got married with your daughter after a short relationship - that would be the most worrying aspect of the whole issue to me. Were there visa issues thst meant they had to marry quickly ?

I'd advise your daughter that you're not happy with his extended family staying there because of wear and tear to the property and make sure her new husband is aware that of this.

 

[fisicx]

Doesn’t matter what you want, If the family turn up and the husband allows them in getting them back out will take legal action.

Unless you stand guard on the door and physically prevent ingress, the husband or your daughter can invite anyone to stay for as long as they like.

 

[lattod]

We purchased a house for our daughter and while it has been refurbed she has married her short term bf, who have moved in a month ago. Now her husband who is from a very extended family has mentioned to my daughter last week that his uncle may be coming up for a few months along with "other family members", he has not asked me and put my daughter under pressure - she has said she will see what I say.. My issue is I do not want a situation where the other 9 people turn up and refuse to move out, as they are in rented property in London and struggling paying bills.

What can I do?

There is no tenancy agreement in place, should I get one and how do I put the exclusion in about other people? I am trying to be reasonable and trying to protect my investment..

TYIA

While it's just your daughter, you have a level of control.
If it's your daughter and her husband, I would be asking for an AST in BOTH names to be in place, that way at least that solidifies that side of things.

The issue without it (and with extended guests) is that if your daughter moves out, these other folks are in there without an AST.

Obviously theyre entitled to quiet enjoyment so you can't dictate too much - that said - when it was your daughter it was easy.

This is turning more into a normal tenancy, so agreements need to be in place, and I'd include some quarterly inspections so you can make sure the property is being kept up with, especially with all these extra people.

Oh (just realised - der) by the way, you'll have turned this into a HMO, so you'll effectively need a licence, plus is it in an Article 4 area - in which case, legally you cant have a HMO.

So - have two people on the AST - if people are staying for short term as holiday guests thats fine, but then if people are living there, then you maintain a certain level of rights with regards evictions etc
And I would move this to being a more formal arrangement now it's more than your daughter.

Hope that helps in some way !

 

[ethical PR]

Doesn’t matter what you want, If the family turn up and the husband allows them in getting them back out will take legal action.

Unless you stand guard on the door and physically prevent ingress, the husband or your daughter can invite anyone to stay for as long as they like.

 

[ethical PR]

Actually as there is no tenancy she does have rights in this situation. Neither the daughter or husband has any tenancy rights so neither they or the husband's relatives have any right of abode

 

[lattod]

Actually as there is no tenancy she does have rights in this situation. Neither the daughter or husband has any tenancy rights so neither they or the husband's relatives have any right of abode

They do have tenancy rights - theres an implied tenancy in place here, domonstrable from the rent thats being paid, and the the fact theyve been in there a while, so saying there's no rights isnt accurate Im afraid.

 

[pentel]

We purchased a house for our daughter

In your name, your daughters name, with mortgage or cash purchase?

 

[fisicx]

Actually as there is no tenancy she does have rights in this situation. Neither the daughter or husband has any tenancy rights so neither they or the husband's relatives have any right of abode

I agree. But if they turn up and someone lets them in getting them back out isn’t going to be easy.

 

[Gyumri]

The OP needs to tread very carefully before she ends up with a house full of people that she can't easily evict in a hurry.
Possession proceedings are taken under CPR part 55 but whose to say the the hubby won't claim that he's got a 50% interest in the property?

So as the others here have said it would be safer to put both the daughter and the hubby on an AST whether the hubby likes it or not.

In that way any other people in occupation after the tenancy comes to an end would be trespassers and it's then easier to get them out.

It also means the the hubby can't start to claim that he has a share in the house.

 

[Newchodge]

Doesn’t matter what you want, If the family turn up and the husband allows them in getting them back out will take legal action.

Unless you stand guard on the door and physically prevent ingress, the husband or your daughter can invite anyone to stay for as long as they like.

Not if the owner changes the locks when they are out.

 

[Newchodge]

They do have tenancy rights - theres an implied tenancy in place here, domonstrable from the rent thats being paid, and the the fact theyve been in there a while, so saying there's no rights isnt accurate Im afraid.

Rent? Who mentioned rent?

 

[fisicx]

Not if the owner changes the locks when they are out.

The are sneaky and always leave one person in the house. Or (as what happens locally) they change their own locks.

 

[ethical PR]

The OP needs to tread very carefully before she ends up with a house full of people that she can't easily evict in a hurry.
Possession proceedings are taken under CPR part 55 but whose to say the the hubby won't claim that he's got a 50% interest in the property?

So as the others here have said it would be safer to put both the daughter and the hubby on an AST whether the hubby likes it or not.

In that way any other people in occupation after the tenancy comes to an end would be trespassers and it's then easier to get them out.

It also means the the hubby can't start to claim that he has a share in the house.

As a landlord I wouldn't put either of them on an AST particularly not the husband . It would make it much harder to get him out of things go wrong.

 

[Gyumri]

How so? An AST would surely clarify the basis upon which they are in occupation. Yes the OP would have to take steps to get them out but at least that would prevent the hubby from taking further liberties.

If it was just the daughter there would be no issue in allowing her into occupation as a bare licensee but with the noises that the hubby is already making about moving his extended family into the house the OP needs to batten down the hatches.

 

[fisicx]

You can have an AST or any other sort of agreement, it’s not going to stop anyone entering the house. And once in the house it becomes increasingly difficult to get them back out again. Especially so if they are children and no other place to live. Legal action can take months to come to fruition.

So whilst I understand the concerns of @Helpneededfast extracting an unwelcome guest isn’t going to be easy.

 

[Gyumri]

You can have an AST or any other sort of agreement, it’s not going to stop anyone entering the house. And once in the house it becomes increasingly difficult to get them back out again.

100% correct. The only advantage in doing an AST is to rule out any possibility that the hubby will start to say that he has an interest in the property as the matrimonial home.

 

[IanSuth]

Personally if trying to find a way to help daughter tell hubby his family coming to stay is not welcome I would tell her to say to him

"My dad has said if they stay more than about a month it will invalidate the building insurance as it is not insured as an HMO (which it also isnt licenced as), so before they come we are going to have to do all the paperwork for that and cover the costs- which will include tenancy agreements, smoke detectors, an inspection etc", obviously a house is so expensive he cant take the risk of a fire or the like destroying it and there being no payout

His response will reveal loads (i don't know how long a tenant can have extended family stay before a need for an HMO applies so feel free to adjust the "month" to any period of time that someone more knowledgeable suggests)

 

[lattod]

Personally if trying to find a way to help daughter tell hubby his family coming to stay is not welcome I would tell her to say to him

"My dad has said if they stay more than about a month it will invalidate the building insurance as it is not insured as an HMO (which it also isnt licenced as), so before they come we are going to have to do all the paperwork for that and cover the costs- which will include tenancy agreements, smoke detectors, an inspection etc", obviously a house is so expensive he cant take the risk of a fire or the like destroying it and there being no payout

His response will reveal loads

This is a nice way of handling it.

The HMO aspect is quite worrying - you're talking 30k fines etc for EACH breach.

 

[fisicx]

It’s not an HMO. These are just family members coming over to stay for a while.

Renting out your property

Landlord responsibilities when renting out your property, including making repairs, health and safety, increasing the rent and changing regulated tenancies.

www.gov.uk

 

[IanSuth]

It’s not an HMO. These are just family members coming over to stay for a while.

Renting out your property

Landlord responsibilities when renting out your property, including making repairs, health and safety, increasing the rent and changing regulated tenancies.

www.gov.uk

Well that depends on who the "few other family members" are with the uncle as this is from same site - looks like cousins are not family but uncle is

A family includes people who are:

• married or living together - including people in same-sex relationships
• relatives or half-relatives, for example grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings
• step-parents and step-children

 

[lattod]

Well that depends on who the "few other family members" are with the uncle as this is from same site - looks like cousins are not family but uncle is

A family includes people who are:

• married or living together - including people in same-sex relationships
• relatives or half-relatives, for example grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings
• step-parents and step-children

Yeah, was just about to point this out.

Original poster said "Extended family" - so that depends on what that means really.
Plus it depends on a few other factors

1. the neighbours and if they dont like seeing a large contingency of people staying at the house
2. how long they actually stay for
3. overzealous council officers out to make their councils money through fines who may, if they get wind of it, go for them.


Not really enough information to go on.

But caution is always the best best here I'd say.

 

[fisicx]

The HMO key is ‘tenant’. People coming to stay for a while doesn’t make them tenants. If they were paying rent then things would be different.

The only reason I know about this is because we had exactly this with one of our leaseholders.

If this extended family are not paying rent it’s not an HMO.

 

[Newchodge]

The HMO key is ‘tenant’. People coming to stay for a while doesn’t make them tenants. If they were paying rent then things would be different.

The only reason I know about this is because we had exactly this with one of our leaseholders.

If this extended family are not paying rent it’s not an HMO.

But there may well be over-crowding issues. Also, if someone is paying rent, doesn't that have the potential for HMO occupancy. For example in a shared house one tenant may have the lease in their name and pay all the rent, while the others cover the council tax, utility bills and everything else.

 

[fisicx]

Totally agree. The overcrowding is something the local council may been keen on investigating but even then it’s not going to happen overnight.

Going right back to the original post: you can’t physically stop this extended family moving in. Once in the house the only option to get them out is legal action ( if they don’t leave voluntarily).

 

[ethical PR]

How so? An AST would surely clarify the basis upon which they are in occupation. Yes the OP would have to take steps to get them out but at least that would prevent the hubby from taking further liberties.

If it was just the daughter there would be no issue in allowing her into occupation as a bare licensee but with the noises that the hubby is already making about moving his extended family into the house the OP needs to batten down the hatches.

The last thing the OP should do is give the Son in Law tenancy rights to this property. Have you any idea how costly and long drawn the process is to get out tenants who refuse to pay.

If he's not a tenant he has no rights of occupation.

Having an AST doesn't stop him from moving people in.

 

[Gyumri]

The last thing the OP should do is give the Son in Law tenancy rights to this property. Have you any idea how costly and long drawn the process is to get out tenants who refuse to pay.

Yes but it's a lot less costly and drawn out than if the hubby starts to say that he has a beneficial interest in the home due to promises made to him by his wife etc.

Then you really do have a drawn out and costly battle for the OP who owns the house.

The wife is apparently already paying rent or setting aside rent for the OP and together with exclusive possession that already is a periodic tenancy.

 

[Newchodge]

The wife is apparently already paying rent or setting aside rent for the OP

Those two are absolutely not the same thing. As asked some time ago, is anyone paying rent?

 

[Gyumri]

No tenancy agremeent in place as mentioned in the intiial post! I own it and the idea before her marraige was to let her live there at the same rental value as her her house, but the money would be in a bank account when she wants to move up.

Presumably the OP's daughter is paying rent.

 

[ethical PR]

It's irrelevant what the wife says she's not a tenant and has no interest in the property?

Are you a lawyer?

How do you know how long and how much it costs to evict a tenant compared to how long and how much it would cost to kick out the partner of someone you've allowed to stay in a house for free???

Nowhere has the OP said her daughter is paying rent.