How to handle this situation with staff manager

[BlueSky2019]

Looking for honest opinions please on what you make of this situation and what you would do? If this situation isn’t resolved promptly the whole business is at risk.

Employee of 8 years working as manufacturing manager (in charge of 3 operatives). Well paid.

Increasing incidents of:
Under performing, not undertaking tasks required of him in a timely or professional manner
Persistent costly Manufacturing mistakes;
Poor monitoring of operatives, not directing them or implementing the required training programmes;
Taking company van without asking for personal use, using company fuel card;
Bad mouthing Management behind their backs (often overheard);
argumentative and disrespectful to Management in front of other staff;
Unauthorised overtime claiming for one of operatives due to errors with hiring pay conditions
Discussing pay rises with staff and divulging confidential pay infomration
Persistently taking time off/coming in late and not making time up
Constantly making personal calls/messaging during work time.

Could literally go on and on and on….
Oh and did I mention this is a family member ??‍

 

[MarkOnline]

They've gotta go.

 

[HFE Signs]

Assuming you have documented evidence with dates for the list then you have plenty of justification for a case of gross misconduct. You would then correctly follow your disciplinary procedure.

The first question is - what would be your preferred outcome, are you looking to tidy things up or are you looking to dismiss this person? Being a family member doesn't alter the rules, however it does make things difficult on a personal/family level.

What would I do? I would put the business first. You might find that this person is also zapping the enthusiasm and draining motivation from the rest of the team.

 

[BlueSky2019]

Thank you for replying. To date I don’t believe this has been handled correctly.
He has been spoken to several times but nothing formally documented or official earnings given.

 

[BlueSky2019]

Sorry posted to early
*official warnings given.
Best outcome is that he goes asap with the least grief possible. If he was any other employee he’d be out on his ear tomorrow but the family dynamic makes things horribly complicated.
Problem is that everyone else thinks he is being given special dispensation

 

[BlueSky2019]

You are 100% right that it is destroying the morale of everyone else

 

[fisicx]

The fact they are family is irrelevant. This is an employee issue.

There will be familial fall out and arguments but that's better than the current situation.

Suspend pending investigation then documented interview then out on their ear. Do not pay them off as that will really annoy everyone else.

 

[HFE Signs]

Thank you for replying. To date I don’t believe this has been handled correctly.
He has been spoken to several times but nothing formally documented or official earnings given.

You can document retrospectively and you can also note the meetings or discussions you've had. Due to his position you need to consider the damage he may cause, so suspension on full pay might be the best option whilst you follow the procedure correctly leading to dismissal.

 

[BlueSky2019]

So, I am insisting things are done correctly going forward.

I/we believe that realistically the only solution is for him to go. There is no coming back from this but it needs to be done in the least disruptive way possible for our sakes.

Disciplinary meeting and final written warning?
Instant dismissal?
Offer redundancy?

 

[HFE Signs]

So, I am insisting things are done correctly going forward.

I/we believe that realistically the only solution is for him to go. There is no coming back from this but it needs to be done in the least disruptive way possible for our sakes.

Disciplinary meeting and final written warning?
Instant dismissal?
Offer redundancy?

I certainly wouldn't pay redundancy.

Refer to employment contract and and follow this https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step

 

[BlueSky2019]

Is suspension pending investigation an option? I know nothing about this line of action

You can document retrospectively and you can also note the meetings or discussions you've had. Due to his position you need to consider the damage he may cause, so suspension on full pay might be the best option whilst you follow the procedure correctly leading to dismissal.

 

[HFE Signs]

Is suspension pending investigation an option? I know nothing about this line of action

I don't see an issue suspending someone on full pay for the sake of damage limitation to your business, whilst you follow the disciplinary procedure through. They are still being paid so they can't claim any loss of income.

I would put it to them in writing and explain why you have decided to suspend them on full pay and explain the next steps to them.

 

[MBE2017]

I appreciate this is a family member, but hopefully you learn to treat everyone as an employee. A couple of things mentioned come right into instant gross dismissal territory for myself, bringing the companies name and reputation into disrepute for a couple of others, and warning territory for most of the others.

I would take legal advice as to the best way forward, it can be a minefield, obviously you need to conduct a thorough review and investigation following best practices, keeping an open mind, then sack them.

That last comment is tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean.

 

[fisicx]

Is suspension pending investigation an option?

YES!

Their actions are about as close to gross misconducts as it gets. You could suspend, investigate and dismiss all in one day. When you do suspend them do it before they even get through the door.

 

[BlueSky2019]

I appreciate this is a family member, but hopefully you learn to treat everyone as an employee. A couple of things mentioned come right into instant gross dismissal territory for myself, bringing the companies name and reputation into disrepute for a couple of others, and warning territory for most of the others.

I would take legal advice as to the best way forward, it can be a minefield, obviously you need to conduct a thorough review and investigation following best practices, keeping an open mind, then sack them.

That last comment is tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean.

Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what strikes you as gross misconduct and what is warning territory?

He is quite a wily, bright character and very adept at being devisive with staff. Horrible really and I wouldn’t put much passed him in causing trouble.

 

[HFE Signs]

Dishonesty is gross misconduct, you have several examples of this in your list

 

[WaveJumper]

I notice you say you don't think this has been handled correctly, so who actually is handling the HR, who actually is this family member responsible too. Do they have a contract, does it outline how they should or should not behave. As others have already mentioned having past and subsequent conversations and outcomes properly recorded are paramount. And should be treated as an other employee in the company.

Seeking proper HR advice maybe a very good course, if you turn to a solicitor make sure they are fully up to speed with employment law. A look at the ACAS website is recommended and you can even get advice from them too.

Is this family member a shareholder by any chance.

 

[BlueSky2019]

I notice you say you don't think this has been handled correctly, so who actually is handling the HR, who actually is this family member responsible too. Do they have a contract, does it outline how they should or should not behave. As others have already mentioned having past and subsequent conversations and outcomes properly recorded are paramount. And should be treated as an other employee in the company.

Seeking proper HR advice maybe a very good course, if you turn to a solicitor make sure they are fully up to speed with employment law. A look at the ACAS website is recommended and you can even get advice from them too.

Is this family member a shareholder by any chance.

Thank you. No, thankfully not a shareholder!

There is a contract but at this moment no idea where it is or what’s in it.
Did find some HR policy documentation, created after he joined, but none of it was ever signed.

I suspect that part of the reluctance to just fire him is that there have been major ownership changes (not family) over the past year and with the ensuing chaos it’s just been a case of “better the devil you know”.
I know that’s no answer and has created more problems than it solves but there is the fundamental issue of being left without a operations manager.

Totally appreciate that we should never have taken our eye off the ball

 

[fisicx]

Replacing an operations manager isn’t difficult. If he is as useless as you describe getting rid of them isn’t going to make things worse.

 

[WaveJumper]

Thank you. No, thankfully not a shareholder!

There is a contract but at this moment no idea where it is or what’s in it.
Did find some HR policy documentation, created after he joined, but none of it was ever signed.

I suspect that part of the reluctance to just fire him is that there have been major ownership changes (not family) over the past year and with the ensuing chaos it’s just been a case of “better the devil you know”.
I know that’s no answer and has created more problems than it solves but there is the fundamental issue of being left without a operations manager.

Totally appreciate that we should never have taken our eye off the ball

I have always been of the opinion no one person in a team is indispensable you'd be surprised how quickly others step into the breach to help you through, especially if that person was disruptive to the business.

 

[BlueSky2019]

Replacing an operations manager isn’t difficult. If he is as useless as you describe getting rid of them isn’t going to make things worse.

Yes.
We are already way behind with orders due to his incompetence but the fear is that will be exacerbated by not having anyone to manage the factory for a period of time.

I don’t know how they would manage in the interim (albeit it can’t get much worse)

 

[fisicx]

Get a temp in. Or maybe there is someone competent on staff that can step up to the plate.

 

[Newchodge]

Sorry posted to early
*official warnings given.
Best outcome is that he goes asap with the least grief possible. If he was any other employee he’d be out on his ear tomorrow but the family dynamic makes things horribly complicated.
Problem is that everyone else thinks he is being given special dispensation

He IS being given special dispensation.

 

[Newchodge]

I don’t know how they would manage in the interim (albeit it can’t get much worse)

Who is they? Are you a shareholder/director/manager in this company?

 

[Newchodge]

Take a step back. Investigate exactly what they are doing wrong. Document it, Hold a disciplinary hearing. Decide what to do.

I would strongly recommend getting formal advice, because this is not straightforward.

 

[BlueSky2019]

For full disclosure his wife has various chronic illnesses and has been in and out of hospital for a few years.
I do really sympathise and we have been flexible as possible but it just seems he takes complete advantage.
Of Course this makes my husband feel even worse about firing him.

 

[Newchodge]

For full disclosure his wife has various chronic illnesses and has been in and out of hospital for a few years.
I do really sympathise and we have been flexible as possible but it just seems he takes complete advantage.
Of Course this makes my husband feel even worse about firing him.

I think you need to decide if you are looking for sensible professional advice or for sympathy.

 

[BlueSky2019]

Who is they? Are you a shareholder/director/manager in this company?

“They” are the other factory guys.

I am a director who to date has been very hands off but now I need to be very much more involved and support my husband.

 

[fisicx]

If the company folds because their incompetence then a lot more people will suffer.

Take emotion out of the situation and do the right thing for the company.

 

[BlueSky2019]

I think you need to decide if you are looking for sensible professional advice or for sympathy.

Definitely not sympathy! I very much appreciate the sound advice given here and understand that this is the reality of running a business.

 

[MBE2017]

Thank you. Would you mind elaborating on what strikes you as gross misconduct and what is warning territory?

He is quite a wily, bright character and very adept at being devisive with staff. Horrible really and I wouldn’t put much passed him in causing trouble.

This is just my opinion, I still recommend you get formal advice, which I am sure would say follow your disciplinary systems, mention your concerns, hold an investigation, and reach a decision based on that and that alone.

Based on your list of problems earlier, if you found these to be true, .....

Under performing, not undertaking tasks required of him in a timely or professional manner - Performance review
Persistent costly Manufacturing mistakes; Performance review
Poor monitoring of operatives, not directing them or implementing the required training programmes; Performance review
Taking company van without asking for personal use, using company fuel card; Potentially Gross Misconduct
Bad mouthing Management behind their backs (often overheard); Bringing the company into disrepute
argumentative and disrespectful to Management in front of other staff;Bringing the company into disrepute
Unauthorised overtime claiming for one of operatives due to errors with hiring pay conditions Performance review
Discussing pay rises with staff and divulging confidential pay infomration
Potentially Gross Misconduct, data breach
Persistently taking time off/coming in late and not making time up
Constantly making personal calls/messaging during work time.

Both the last I would consider Performance review. Which leads onto another more awkward problem, who has not been managing this manager, because they are an even bigger problem.

 

[BlueSky2019]

This is just my opinion, I still recommend you get formal advice, which I am sure would say follow your disciplinary systems, mention your concerns, hold an investigation, and reach a decision based on that and that alone.

Based on your list of problems earlier, if you found these to be true, .....

Under performing, not undertaking tasks required of him in a timely or professional manner - Performance review
Persistent costly Manufacturing mistakes; Performance review
Poor monitoring of operatives, not directing them or implementing the required training programmes; Performance review
Taking company van without asking for personal use, using company fuel card; Potentially Gross Misconduct
Bad mouthing Management behind their backs (often overheard); Bringing the company into disrepute
argumentative and disrespectful to Management in front of other staff;Bringing the company into disrepute
Unauthorised overtime claiming for one of operatives due to errors with hiring pay conditions Performance review
Discussing pay rises with staff and divulging confidential pay infomration
Potentially Gross Misconduct, data breach
Persistently taking time off/coming in late and not making time up
Constantly making personal calls/messaging during work time.

Both the last I would consider Performance review. Which leads onto another more awkward problem, who has not been managing this manager, because they are an even bigger problem.

This is really useful.

Ultimately the buck stops with my husband. He has let this situation fester by not taking prompt action when incidents occurred. Each time theres a mistake or blatant disrespect, voices get raised but nothing changes. He admits he hasn’t been managing the guy properly as he is so crazy busy sorting fallout from mistakes made!
No excuse though; it’s madness

 

[MBE2017]

This is really useful.

Ultimately the buck stops with my husband. He has let this situation fester by not taking prompt action when incidents occurred. Each time theres a mistake or blatant disrespect, voices get raised but nothing changes. He admits he hasn’t been managing the guy properly as he is so crazy busy sorting fallout from mistakes made!
No excuse though; it’s madness

The most important thing is you have both recognised it. Set up a system to tackle such issues, and apply it to all members of staff equally, show no favours, you will get full respect if family members are treated the same way.

More importantly it will cut down such issues in the future.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I think all the above from the usual suspects is a load of old b£££££ks
I think you're in the wrong job
It would be best suited for someone that has the skills set to handle the situation or the business may go to wall

Hope this helps

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Hi @BlueSky2019 , sorry to hear of your dilemma.

Check your Business Insurance - many include free legal insurance cover which will provide free legal advice and also will respond to any potential future employee claim if things go wrong!

If you have the legal cover - give them a call and follow their advice to the letter! This may help with the family situation as you may be able to use it to pass the buck on the process "I spoke to my insurers for some legal advice and they said I had to do a, b and c - Sorry but I can't do it another way as I have to follow their instructions to make sure I am covered by the policy"

 

[The Byre]

Ultimately the buck stops with my husband. He has let this situation fester by not taking prompt action when incidents occurred. Each time theres a mistake or blatant disrespect, voices get raised but nothing changes.

Time for Mr. Husband to grow a pair. Consult a pukka employment lawyer to guide Mr. Husband through the following steps, each to be completed IMMEDIATELY after any further incident -

1. Incident one - a letter outlining the delinquent behaviour and warning that a repeat may result in dismissal.

2. Incident two - another letter warning that any further misbehaviour will result in dismissal.

3. Incident three - a letter of instant dismissal for gross and repeated misconduct.

(And three people do not need an operations manager - 30 perhaps, but not three!)

 

[BlueSky2019]

Time for Mr. Husband to grow a pair. Consult a pukka employment lawyer to guide Mr. Husband through the following steps, each to be completed IMMEDIATELY after any further incident -

1. Incident one - a letter outlining the delinquent behaviour and warning that a repeat may result in dismissal.

2. Incident two - another letter warning that any further misbehaviour will result in dismissal.

3. Incident three - a letter of instant dismissal for gross and repeated misconduct.

(And three people do not need an operations manager - 30 perhaps, but not three!)

Thank you and fair point about needing an Ops manager.

Maybe “supervisor” is a better title, although frankly he’s not even doing that. The largest part of his role is managing and scheduling production, which he isn’t even doing, let along managing 3 people.

 

[WaveJumper]

So now its time for action all the advice above is good and the best bit is get someone in with HR knowledge. Now I will go one step further (not knowing full company set up) you as a director take over full HR responsibility from your husband, get him out of the loop (he can carry on doing what he likes doing) now before you / he end up with no business left to manage.

You get in the HR expert to help you and get it sorted before it's too late there must be enough other things in the business to be worrying about

 

[BlueSky2019]

Definite food for thought. Am wondering how complicated it is to taken on HR responsibility for a SME without qualifications or prior experience?

 

[HFE Signs]

Definite food for thought. Am wondering how complicated it is to taken on HR responsibility for a SME without qualifications or prior experience?

Take on? Are you seriously thinking about employing your own HR manager? How many staff do you have?