MTD VAT exclusion reasons

[oz07]

Im applying for MTD exclusion and trying to compile a list of reasons / exclusions and see which apply for me.

I've had a quick look around the internet and can see a few websites. I will forget insolvency because it defeats the purpose.

Religious grounds, digital exclusion and support seem to be the key things. Also remoteness, disability and age.

Does anyone else have any other reasons?

If you were below the VAT threshold therefore voluntarily registered for VAT could that argument still be used or am I right in thinking they have withdrawn that one now.

Cheers

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

No because the way I understand it is that those under the threshold still have to report digitally

Age is no excuse there are some old duffers on here teaching people how to do it

Disability maybe but the disabled people I have come across want to do everything they can so very few would be asking for exemption .
Digital remoteness , I have seen it here in Devon but again it would apply to too few people .

I dont really see the point in trying to find a way out .

 

[Newchodge]

Im applying for MTD exclusion and trying to compile a list of reasons / exclusions and see which apply for me.

I've had a quick look around the internet and can see a few websites. I will forget insolvency because it defeats the purpose.

Religious grounds, digital exclusion and support seem to be the key things. Also remoteness, disability and age.

Does anyone else have any other reasons?

If you were below the VAT threshold therefore voluntarily registered for VAT could that argument still be used or am I right in thinking they have withdrawn that one now.

Cheers

How about doing it the other way around. Instead of looking for an exclusion that may be stretched to cover you, why not start with the real reason you cannot do it and then see if it matches any exclusions?

 

[oz07]

I dont really see the point in trying to find a way out .

It just places extra burden on me for no benefit. I currently submit accurate VAT returns online so what is the problem. PAYE they provide Basic Tools so you can comply. With MTD they are providing you with nothing. I understand there are (third party?) things out there which convert you spreadsheet to MTD compliant filing but WTF?! Where did life all go so wrong.

As long as my figures are accurate and i'm paying my tax my conscience is clear in trying to avoid this extra burden.

 

[oz07]

How about doing it the other way around. Instead of looking for an exclusion that may be stretched to cover you, why not start with the real reason you cannot do it and then see if it matches any exclusions?

Me personally

No formal education qualifications GCE's etc
No software package that does MTD
No fixed landline to the property
Rely on support of family with regards to computers (which could change subject to circumstances)

I just thought it would be handy to have a thread with some exclusions/reasons.

 

[WaveJumper]

Well my first Google search this morning resulted in this:

"HMRC says you can apply for an exemption from MTD for VAT if it's not reasonable or practical for you to use computers, software or the internet. Typically, this could be because of your age, disability, location or religion"

 

[Newchodge]

Me personally

No formal education qualifications GCE's etc
No software package that does MTD
No fixed landline to the property
Rely on support of family with regards to computers (which could change subject to circumstances)

I just thought it would be handy to have a thread with some exclusions/reasons.

I don't think any of those count.

Lots of people without formal qualifications cna do all sorts of things.
If you haven't got software that can cope, you can get it.
I don't think you need a fixed landline to go online (I could be wrong on that one, but you are obviously able to go online,as you are here).
If family supports you already, why can't they support you with MTD?

Sorry.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Me personally

No formal education qualifications GCE's etc
No software package that does MTD
No fixed landline to the property
Rely on support of family with regards to computers (which could change subject to circumstances)

I just thought it would be handy to have a thread with some exclusions/reasons.

You can buy a software package
You dont need a landline
Internet /family support How the F££k did you get on here with us if you cant use a computer ?

I have no educationals to speak of City and Guilds in Sport and that only comes in handy when I watch the rugby

 

[oz07]

Im not trying to start an argument with anyone here! Just brain storming!

I didn't say I can't use a computer or I don't have internet. What I am saying is I don't have a regular landline connection and i'm not confident with spreadsheets and new software, I need help sometimes with that stuff.

The point of saying you need support is what would happen if your circumstances changed and the support was no longer available.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Im not trying to start an argument with anyone here! Just brain storming!

I didn't say I can't use a computer or I don't have internet. What I am saying is I don't have a regular landline connection and i'm not confident with spreadsheets and new software, I need help sometimes with that stuff.

The point of saying you need support is what would happen if your circumstances changed and the support was no longer available.

Problem is you have not clearly explain why you should be exempt or reason why you cant install the technology hence the short fuse reply .

 

[WaveJumper]

Ok I am just throwing it out there .... if you have enough turnover to be VAT registered in my book its would be prudent to have something like Xero etc to keep track of your accounts. It is probably much easier than relying on an excel spread sheet (oh no I can see another debate coming on that comment) These systems are quite easy to navigate around and personally think it makes life much easier in the long run.

Im old and anything that makes life easy is great by me........ then I have more time to worry about everything else.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

Why not ask your accountant to do your VAT for you? Problem solved!

 

[oz07]

Ok I am just throwing it out there .... if you have enough turnover to be VAT registered in my book its would be prudent to have something like Xero etc to keep track of your accounts. It is probably much easier than relying on an excel spread sheet (oh no I can see another debate coming on that comment) These systems are quite easy to navigate around and personally think it makes life much easier in the long run.

Im old and anything that makes life easy is great by me........ then I have more time to worry about everything else.

What if you're not above the VAT threshold but are registered anyway?

 

[oz07]

Why not ask your accountant to do your VAT for you? Problem solved!

£££

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

£££

Your trying to wind us up now !

 

[kulture]

I suggest that you try digital exclusion. As you have no landline you thus can say that you don’t have reliable access to the internet and as such you don’t want to depend on it for such an important function.

 

[oz07]

Your trying to wind us up now !

I imagine they would want 150 a quarter at a guess, plus the legwork of me supplying them whatever they need each quarter. Alternatively it takes me an afternoon each time I currently have to submit. Id rather keep the 600 quid a year in my pocket for the 4 afternoons.

 

[fisicx]

I’ve just checked the HMRC website and they list a whole load of free tools you can get to bridge between your current record keeping and MTD. I think you will struggle to get an exemption but doesn’t hurt to ask.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I imagine they would want 150 a quarter at a guess, plus the legwork of me supplying them whatever they need each quarter. Alternatively it takes me an afternoon each time I currently have to submit. Id rather keep the 600 quid a year in my pocket for the 4 afternoons.

Are you running a business or is it just a hobby ?
If you are running a business then I dont get it . !
One simple phase "The cost of doing business" if the money is not there then you are not charging your customers enough .
Are you by any chance a Yorkshire man ? because thats the only other thing I can think of

 

[NicoJ]

Whilst I sympathise with your situation - I don't agree with HMRC forcing people to prepare their books a certain way - it is unfortunately the way this will have to be done. The accounting/tax profession has been roundly ignored by HMRC on this.

I don't know if you are a sole trader but if you are you are looking at MTDITSA in the not too distant future. Ltd & other entities will inevitably follow.

My advice would be to look at either paying someone to do this for you (doesn't have to be your accountant) or looking into some training on software (even if it is excel). There are a few low cost / free accounts software that will do both your vat returns and end of year trial balance for your accountant if used properly.

You may earn yourself a reprieve for this round of digitisation but you will continue to have these fights with HMRC until you eventually either cease trading or give in.

 

[fisicx]

I pay my accountant once a year to do everything for me. He saves me far more tax than he charges in fees. He does all the MTD, prepares and submits accounts to CH.HMRC and provides tea and cake when I drop off the books. Well worth the investment.

 

[Newchodge]

I pay my accountant once a year to do everything for me. He saves me far more tax than he charges in fees. He does all the MTD, prepares and submits accounts to CH.HMRC and provides tea and cake when I drop off the books. Well worth the investment.

Chocolate cake?

 

[fisicx]

Chocolate cake?

This year it was lemon drizzle cake. And being an accountant no doubt tax deductible.

 

[The Byre]

Does anyone else have any other reasons?

Being daft is not a reason for exclusion!

Just go to 123sheets and they'll do it all for you for a very modest fee.

Simples!

(Ah! The power of Googling stuff!)

 

[oz07]

Are you running a business or is it just a hobby ?
If you are running a business then I dont get it . !
One simple phase "The cost of doing business" if the money is not there then you are not charging your customers enough .
Are you by any chance a Yorkshire man ? because thats the only other thing I can think of

Hey I don't mind admitting i'm careful with money. It's not a hobby business but i've scaled back from turning over in the few hundered k to now below the VAT threshold. I now only have myself to worry about and for where I am in life at this present time the effort vs reward is right for me.

I honestly don't understand the negativity here. It's not like i'm trying to avoid any tax. I just can't be arsed to change the way I submit now when its working for everyone. If the revenue wants to start bringing in silly mandatory ways of submitting then they should provide something like basic PAYE tools.

I pay my accountant once a year to do everything for me. He saves me far more tax than he charges in fees. He does all the MTD, prepares and submits accounts to CH.HMRC and provides tea and cake when I drop off the books. Well worth the investment.

Do you think because you only pay once a year that as well as the VAT returns the accountant is providing the tea and cake for free?

 

[fisicx]

Do you think because you only pay once a year that as well as the VAT returns the accountant is providing the tea and cake for free?

My point was using an accountant has saved me money. The tea and cake is irrelevant.

You may not want to change but change is inevitable. It’s not being done to annoy you, MTD is just a natural progression of something that been ongoing for years. Just use the free bridging software and get on with life.

 

[oz07]

My point was using an accountant has saved me money. The tea and cake is irrelevant.

You may not want to change but change is inevitable. It’s not being done to annoy you, MTD is just a natural progression of something that been ongoing for years. Just use the free bridging software and get on with life.

It sounded to me like you presumed the VAT returns were being done FOC because you only pay once a year. Glad you appreciate this is not the case! I don't eat processed sugar myself so glad I am not using the same accountant as yourself, would feel short changed!

Okay we will all have to agree to disagree and I genuinely hope this thread can be of assistance to anyone (thick!) like myself who is concerned that the new system may not work as some people envisage and has the potential to cause issues.

Thanks all

 

[fisicx]

I genuinely hope this thread can be of assistance to anyone (thick!) like myself who is concerned that the new system may not work as some people envisage and has the potential to cause issues.

What issues? It's all fairly simple with loads of online help you guide you. And the free software means there is zero cost to anyone wanting to do it themselves.

 

[japancool]

I really wish HMRC would accept "can't be arsed" as a reason.

"Why didn't you submit your tax returns?"
"Can't be arsed."

 

[Newchodge]

I just can't be arsed to change the way I submit now when its working for everyone.

I think the point is that it doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't work for HMRC because dealing with the returns as you submit them involves their staff. Using MTD is automated until there is a problem.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Alternatively it takes me an afternoon each time I currently have to submit.

A whole afternoon sounds way too long if your turnover is below threshold. I'm similar and it takes me all of 5 minutes or so to do the return and submit it via MTD.

Like you I resisted MTD until the last moment, but having done it now I won't look back.

I suggest that your problem is not MTD, but actually that whatever software you are using for bookkeeping is not up to scratch. If it were it would do MTD no problem.

So you could solve your problem by using better software. Personally I use Accounts Portal. Does everything I need very inexpensively.

And after the 5 mins to do the VAT, just think how much cake you could enjoy in the rest of the afternoon!

 

[johndon68]

No fixed landline to the property

Not sure that would wash as you’ve already said you submit your returns on line,
MTD is just an automated way of submitting online.

 

[CA85]

De-register for VAT?
Then nothing to submit.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Is there a plea of 'Insanity?'

 

[DontAsk]

I honestly don't understand the negativity here. It's not like i'm trying to avoid any tax. I just can't be arsed to change the way I submit now when its working for everyone. If the revenue wants to start bringing in silly mandatory ways of submitting then they should provide something like basic PAYE tools.

I find MTD is easier and quicker. Before I copied all the boxes from my accounting software onto HMRCs webpage. Now I just click a button or two and the software does it all.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

I imagine they would want 150 a quarter at a guess, plus the legwork of me supplying them whatever they need each quarter. Alternatively it takes me an afternoon each time I currently have to submit. Id rather keep the 600 quid a year in my pocket for the 4 afternoons.

Have you tried asking them?

nb if an accountant charges you £600 to do your VAT returns at the level you have mentioned, you need a new accountant.

Ask them. It might cost less than your four afternoons cost you.

 

[GLAbusiness]

It just places extra burden on me for no benefit. I currently submit accurate VAT returns online so what is the problem. PAYE they provide Basic Tools so you can comply. With MTD they are providing you with nothing. I understand there are (third party?) things out there which convert you spreadsheet to MTD compliant filing but WTF?! Where did life all go so wrong.

As long as my figures are accurate and i'm paying my tax my conscience is clear in trying to avoid this extra burden.

So, you are quite happy to have the burden of spending a whole afternoon on each return. If you just use one of the many simple solutions available you would reduce your existing burden not add a new one.

Trying to get an exclusion looks like it will take you more effort than implementing a software solution.

Passing the work onto HMRC instead of being more efficient yourself just puts the burden on the taxpayer - and that means me - I object to your attempt to increase my tax bill.

 

[paulears]

Let's be honest here - ALL tax will be digital before long, the age of paper is just gone. For me - the biggest bonus was not keeping paper receipts, and my accountancy fees went down because my accountant drowned in the things. This is all about wanting to keep the old system going, despite the sheer fact that digital accounts is easier and saves time. When a customer says they bought something last July but can't remember what it was, it's a few taps in the software and all the items for that price, or model number come up. I cannot lose things, I spot the odd invoice that hasn't;t been paid and I notice mistakes that would have remained hidden in my old paper system.

This looking for an excuse might work, but next year or the year after, it will happen again. If you turnover around the VAT threshold amount, that's a lot of money to leave to pieces of paper.

Is the real reason simply that you like how you have always done it and don't wish to change? The rest are just excuses being collected. I think we get that, but few people in business are technophobes any longer because we use computers so much. I really understand some people do not like these changes but without any doubt at all, computers and MTD has saved me accountancy, time and made me more efficient. My accounts when I did them manually with just a spreadsheet had loads of tiny mistakes a proper accounts package sorts out for you. Mine takes just a few seconds to do the VAT now as I'm always virtually up to date and accurate.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Let's be honest here - ALL tax will be digital before long, the age of paper is just gone.

I think you are right, but the OP's quest does raise an important point of principle.

Should a citizen be required to use (and pay for) proprietary software in order to interact with govt?

My answer is a resounding no to that question. Freedom includes being able to keep paper records if you so choose, and submit information the govt requires on paper. Many, myself included, choose not to do that but isn't it important to maintain freedom for the few?

And that would include the freedom to pay anything due in cash.

If we let govt remove those freedoms, we are on a slippery slope to complete govt control of our lives.

 

[fisicx]

Should a citizen be required to use (and pay for) proprietary software in order to interact with govt?

You don’t have to pay anything. There is a list of free tools you can use on the HMRC site. And a number of banks provide free accounting software.