Commercial landlord wants to evict under an easy in easy out contract (hence no fault on landlord)

[kulture]

Why the heck do you need to get so damn personal, what is wrong with you?

Nothing, what is wrong with you? did you not read the bit that said that this was not advice to you? There is no point advising you as you rudely dismiss anything that you do not agree with. However these threads are read by a lot more than just the OP and others in a similar position may read the advice and it may be relevant. Further people ask questions to drag out the details as they may actually be relevant, despite what you think. For example what you stock and actually keep in your office space may be vital, or not. If you simply sold office supplies then this is indeed unlikely to be a concern, if however you sold fireworks, or perhaps foodstuffs, then this would be critical information and potentially cripple any case you have against the landlord. In any thread we generally only hear one side of the story. The other side may be just as relevant and likely to be used in any court case. In many such situations details matter. Sometimes the smallest detail, which you may think is not of concern, may end up being critical. Hence the questions.

It is always worth pointing out the GENERAL situation between landlords and tenants. In general Landlords want to collect the money and do nothing else. Any tenant, no matter how justified, who complains, upsets this ideal of inaction. Now I am not suggesting never complain, but be aware of the commercial realities. Where a landlord collects just £25 a week form a number of people, and all but one are silent, then the landlord will perfer to get rid of the one and replace them with another silent one. if however there is a genuine problem that most or all the tenants are concerned about then a collective complaint is something the landlord is more likely to deal with without consequenses.

All too often we see commercial tenants thinking that they have rights and legal protection similar to residential tenants. This is just not the case. For commercial tenants the only thing that matters is the lease. The only protections (if any) are in the lease. Landlords are not keen to give any such protections and thus they tend not to be written into the lease. This is why we always suggest using solicitors before signing any commercial lease as your solicitor will point out any shortcomings and potentially get some protections written into the lease.

 

[MBE2017]

*to
I don't want to quibble over semantics when it's so meta. Surely you understand that it's a heavy matter that requires great planning and grace for a smooth switchover.

I have always been aware of the terms, may l redirect you to the OP.

No, it’s simply find new premises, book a man with a van, load up, move out and move in. If not find temporary storage facilities, there are thousands of places available.

It’s hardly a brain surgery operation, if it is so complicated why did you agree to these terms when taking out the lease?

As a former courier and removals specialist, I have moved up to two complete households and their possessions in just one day, all you are doing is trying to make this awkward.

Of course, if you are stocking nuclear missiles, need a road escort across several hundreds of miles, I take back my comments, but I doubt that is the case.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

82 replies but answered in #6! Never play chess with pidgeons!

 

[campbeji]

Hi

I'm sorry but I have no idea about the legal aspect of this!

From reading your original post I can tell that you feel very strongly about what has happened to you, it isn't fair and shouldn't have happened. That being said, it did happen and the main question, in my opinion, is how you are going to deal with it.

First, you need to find somewhere else to work from, this is important so you need to concentrate on this.

Secondly, how are you going to deal with the legal aspects of this? My advice is to draw a line under it and move on, hard to do I know, but your most important consideration should be to look after your mental health. The whole legal thing is going to be nothing but a rabbit hole of pain and frustration for you. It will take time and money that you probably can't afford to spend on something that will have pretty low chances of a decent return. The damage to your mental health will not be worth it.

If you are a 'logical' type of person like me then do a cost/benefit analysis of what you are thinking of doing.

On a more practical note, I was recently looking for some space to work from and I found a local self storage place that allowed me to work from one of the units (we have two units now), 24 hr access, inc electric etc, on a month to month contract. The costs are substantially less than the office/workshops available to lease. The only downside is the temp is a bit low and the unit doesn't lend itself to heating, but a jumper and a pair of longjohns will sort that out during the winter when the temp drops a few degrees.

Anyway, Good luck
Jim

 

[Karimbo]

I honestly thought this was a troll post, this is so ridiculous, so I posetd a troll comment saying they should get big city firm lawyers involved, but mods seem to have deleted it.

I say the figures of some £30 a week rent. What sort of space or equipment can they possibly have for £30 a week?

here in London, you'll get a 3ft by 4ft broom cupboard in a self storage unit for that price.

I still think OP is pulling everyone's leg - its just not beliebale to me.

 

[OfficeHope]

---

From your latter posts it seems the moving out, relocation and storage are things that you don't wish to discuss as you have this all covered. Hopefully this all works out for you.

Going on to claims against the landlord it sounds like you have a full time line and appropriate evidence to make a claim. The main question is does it make sense to do so? Lets assume that you make a claim, are successful and you get all your rent back. This will come to approximately £1300 which is not a small amount of money considering your situation.

Going through this process can be really stressful. Do you want the stress? Are you better off moving on and using the energy you will expend following up on an uncertain claim with a max return of £1300 or are you better off using those energies to double or more your weekly profit, which will be ongoing and could be worth 10's of thousands in the long term?

Of course you could say I want to do both and that is your choice. If you want to do both then get moved and then go onto to the legal aspect.

From the numerous comments in this thread from people who have been in similar situations it may be best to take a break at that point and think about what you really want. Stuffing it to the landlord wont affect him one jot. Winning will feel great, but what will you have actually achieved? Sometimes it is best to walk away.

That's a good way of putting it. Being a businessperson often means saying no to "opportunities". However in this case, l just don't have any provable new funds (l plan to rapidly expand, but proven track record in the new avenues l want to pursue). Therefore l would probably fight for that £1,300 and l actually think the paperwork side of moving is probably worse than writing up the case. My case already exists in skeleton format, with photos and video taken ad hoc at the time.

As part of my case, I want to recommend that the landlord loses his right to let buildings if there he ends up in court again over that building. Property investment for a tax break should involve genuine intent to be a landlord ...

 

[OfficeHope]

Hi

I'm sorry but I have no idea about the legal aspect of this!

From reading your original post I can tell that you feel very strongly about what has happened to you, it isn't fair and shouldn't have happened. That being said, it did happen and the main question, in my opinion, is how you are going to deal with it.

First, you need to find somewhere else to work from, this is important so you need to concentrate on this.

Secondly, how are you going to deal with the legal aspects of this? My advice is to draw a line under it and move on, hard to do I know, but your most important consideration should be to look after your mental health. The whole legal thing is going to be nothing but a rabbit hole of pain and frustration for you. It will take time and money that you probably can't afford to spend on something that will have pretty low chances of a decent return. The damage to your mental health will not be worth it.

If you are a 'logical' type of person like me then do a cost/benefit analysis of what you are thinking of doing.

On a more practical note, I was recently looking for some space to work from and I found a local self storage place that allowed me to work from one of the units (we have two units now), 24 hr access, inc electric etc, on a month to month contract. The costs are substantially less than the office/workshops available to lease. The only downside is the temp is a bit low and the unit doesn't lend itself to heating, but a jumper and a pair of longjohns will sort that out during the winter when the temp drops a few degrees.

Anyway, Good luck
Jim

Thanks. I actually used to work from one of those units, and l met some lovely people there, every day was an adventure. Unfortunately l've now developed Reynauds phenomenon so my fingertips turn icy even during cool breeze in summer sometimes. It's good that you found a good price though, because usually those units come at a premium for the added security they provide (l have a friend who sells antiques and he is forced to use expensive self-storage units like yours, he's been moaning for years!). Well, at least you are getting yours at a good price.

For me, l have a cheap solution worked out.

As for the cost in stress, well, l've just emerged from a 4-day monster headache. I'm sure the stress had something to do with it (probably immunosuppressed me, l caught a mini cold, causing sinus fluid build up, causing an untreatable headache, which the stress worsened).

 

[japancool]

Therefore l would probably fight for that £1,300

Even if you were to win, it seems highly unlikely you'd receive all your rent back. You were, after all, in the building for a year, using the building and its facilities. Even if they weren't up to scratch, you still had use of it. You might only get a partial refund, if anything at all.

 

[OfficeHope]

I honestly thought this was a troll post, this is so ridiculous, so I posetd a troll comment saying they should get big city firm lawyers involved, but mods seem to have deleted it.

I say the figures of some £30 a week rent. What sort of space or equipment can they possibly have for £30 a week?

here in London, you'll get a 3ft by 4ft broom cupboard in a self storage unit for that price.

I still think OP is pulling everyone's leg - its just not beliebale to me.

The figures are not actual (though not far off) and they don't matter. I've explained already that they served to demonstrate the dilemma in forfeiting stock onsite or forfeiting in a container.

 

[OfficeHope]

Even if you were to win, it seems highly unlikely you'd receive all your rent back. You were, after all, in the building for a year, using the building and its facilities. Even if they weren't up to scratch, you still had use of it. You might only get a partial refund, if anything at all.

The argument is that the landlord wants the tenants but none of the landlording as it's an investment property to him and little else. If he is to be like that, then he ought not covet my money, especially considering the range and severity of abuses which occurred, which in different contexts (e.g. in an employment setting) would be costly for an employer.

 

[OfficeHope]

82 replies but answered in #6! Never play chess with pidgeons!

*pigeons

The thread developed way beyond that, even with that person's information.
Kindly don't get personal or condescending.

 

[kulture]

The argument is that the landlord wants the tenants but none of the landlording as it's an investment property to him and little else. If he is to be like that, then he ought not covet my money, especially considering the range and severity of abuses which occurred, which in different contexts (e.g. in an employment setting) would be costly for an employer.

This is how commercial landlords work.
Most commercial landlords write leases where they do nothing except collect the rent. Everything else is done by the tenant.

 

[japancool]

The argument is that the landlord wants the tenants but none of the landlording as it's an investment property to him and little else.

It doesn't matter what you believe he "ought" to have. What matters is what's in the lease, nothing else. It's not a residential lease.

 

[OfficeHope]

It doesn't matter what you believe he "ought" to have. What matters is what's in the lease, nothing else. It's not a residential lease.

The lease was not fully honoured, in that l was actually assured peaceful enjoyment, and a 7 day notice period before the landlord / anyone working on his behalf, would visit - except in emergencies - then l got a sinister taunt from the rep to tell me they had entered my room (no context other than l mentioned a buddy of theirs was closing a window immediately after l opened it). It also promised maintenance of communal areas. What unfolded was at times comical e.g. me giving a running commentary in eMail of the scotch egg deteriorating from possibly edible to positively green. And near the end of that decay process came the command "Don't touch anything that doesn't belong to you" (pp). And so forth, all mentioned in the OP.

What l am saying "ought" to be, is my argument to the judge, not to the letting contract nor necessarily arising from the letting contract. I feel the landlord ought not covet my money if this bad service is the exchange for it. The range and severity of some of it would have put an employer in hot water had this been an employment setting. The salient point being this is bad business, this is execrable, and calls for a refund, and the refund should be a full refund considering the fallout (l have to geographically relocate in a big way, and there's the emotional aspect which is actually a legal consideration).

 

[japancool]

I'm afraid you'll just have to let the judge disabuse you of your notions. Nothing anyone says here is apparently going to do that.

 

[MOIC]

This thread is going nowhere and the OP is now becoming delusional.

A lesson for anyone taking out a commercial lease….. understand what you’re signing and don’t be the only tenant to complain all the time. A good landlord will want you out first, so you don’t upset other tenants.

Preparing a court case will take all your time, money and huge stress. From your posts, you won’t want to be faced with any of those predicaments.

Concentrate on moving out and stop wasting your time on posts, making points which won’t get you anywhere, not least with a judge.

If you’re looking to let steam out, get some CBT, which you’ll find more therapeutic.

Accept the situation and get on with your life and your business.

 

[OfficeHope]

I'm afraid you'll just have to let the judge disabuse you of your notions. Nothing anyone says here is apparently going to do that.

This thread is going nowhere and the OP is now becoming delusional.

A lesson for anyone taking out a commercial lease….. understand what you’re signing and don’t be the only tenant to complain all the time. A good landlord will want you out first, so you don’t upset other tenants.

Preparing a court case will take all your time, money and huge stress. From your posts, you won’t want to be faced with any of those predicaments.

Concentrate on moving out and stop wasting your time on posts, making points which won’t get you anywhere, not least with a judge.

If you’re looking to let steam out, get some CBT, which you’ll find more therapeutic.

Accept the situation and get on with your life and your business.

This is why l'd rather reply to people answering the OP.

There's no basis for respondents being so emotionally laden. The anger comes from cognitive dissonance, being confronted with a counterargument and having nothing to argue back with, and not realising this isn't a battle in any case, just a legal query.

You both have a history of coming back to this thread and ending up in "told you so, everyone told you" plus some nasty personal jibes or upvoting them, when the point of this thread was to try out some arguments. The actual advice l take will be from a law workshop.

As for those that come here, see a person in need, and insult: what goes around, comes around in some form, always. If you haven't mastered the Golden Rule then you ought not reply here.

 

[OfficeHope]

Please, if you are a heavy presence on here, if you are a high octane user that needs to exact a price from someone for each "contribution" there's no need to answer this thread. Even if you have the best answers to my OP. I'll live without your contributions. I just want decent meek people that want to give considered responses and don't contaminate it all with plain old nastiness.

There have been a few decent posters on here and some have given good pointers. Thank you. I'm currently trying to secure a legal aid clinic session.

 

[OfficeHope]

*l'm currently trying to secure a free law workshop session

 

[japancool]

There's no basis for respondents being so emotionally laden. The anger comes from cognitive dissonance, being confronted with a counterargument and having nothing to argue back with, and not realising this isn't a battle in any case, just a legal query.

You're the one who is emotionally invested in this case. No one else here actually cares what happens. In fact, everyone else is trying to help you, but you just won't listen to common sense.

I grant that your mental health issues may cause you to think everyone is out to get you, as you evidence by your comment about "recognising the pattern" in your OP, but were you able to look at it objectively, you would know that this isn't the case.

Your free law clinic will tell you exactly the same thing, but you'll try to push ahead with it anyway. Nothing anyone says is going to convince you otherwise. I wish you good luck, because you're seriously going to need it.

 

[OfficeHope]

As i've always stated, l'm the only one that should be emotionally invested in this case in fact emotional fallout is one of my arguments against the defendant. This is a separate matter to the closure of the tenancy. As for the rest of your reply, please, leave me alone. You are not keeping to the OP and you are being just plain unrelentingly rude e.g. these constant harrying references to my mental health, which was mentioned in the OP in the context of my claim only. Plus some of the few legal tidbits you've written are demonstrably false, this is not a considered response, it's just abuse.

I only want to discuss the questions l raised in the OP, and then, only with benign correspondents giving a considered response, as per the OP. It would help (but it's not essential) if you've had experience of commercial claims (as one or two respondents have) (some respondents seem not to realise that getting legal advice is a pre-action protocol, and so these warnings that l will fall hard because l'm deluded, are revealing of the fact that they are unfamiliar with the process themselves).

Again, in case it was missed:

Please, if you (whoever it may concern) are a heavy presence on here, if you are a high octane user that needs to exact a price from someone (i.e. in rudeness) for each "contribution" there's no need to answer this thread. Even if you have the best answers to my OP. I'll live without your contributions. I just want decent meek people that want to give considered responses and don't contaminate it all with plain old nastiness.

There have been a few decent posters on here and some have given good pointers. Thank you. I'm currently trying to secure a free law clinic session.

 

[MOIC]

After CBT (which you seriously need), take some time out from your business.

Perhaps this whole saga was a message from higher up.

Taking legal action against your landlord showing Exhibit A of a rotting scotch egg may invite him to get the white coats in.

Get help……..not legal, but medical.

 

[MOIC]

I just want decent meek people that want to give considered responses

Meek you say?!

You won’t find meek people on this forum. Just realists with experience who have given considered responses.

 

[MBE2017]

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[MOIC]

. . . . . .Or close the thread.

 

[kulture]

. . . . . .Or close the thread.

Tempting.

It however highlights the difference between emotions and logic. The OP is clearly running on emotions and thinks emotional that they are not just in the right but bound to win.

Logic however says that the OP stands no chance. The law is rarely fair, and even less likely to side with the emotional arguments.

It is an all to common error to ignore the basic hard business logic. It is normally a waste of time and energy for a business to go to court. Even if they win it is all too likely that any awards end up unpaid.

If a business decides to go to court, the first step must be to talk to a decent solicitor and LISTEN. If the solicitor says that you will likely loose, walk away and get on with life.

To take someone to court based on emotional reasons is a recipe for failure.

Unfortunately I don’t think for a second that the OP will listen.

I pity the landlord.

 

[fisicx]

If a business decides to go to court, the first step must be to talk to a decent solicitor and LISTEN. If the solicitor says that you will likely loose, walk away and get on with life.

Unfortunately the OP isn't going to do this. They are going to try and get help from a free workshop.

 

[chickenlady]

I used to work for a local authority - one of my roles was preparing residential landlord harassment cases for prosecution. They are extremely difficult to prove and we only had success when the landlord acted outside common law. I appreciate this is a commercial license, but, having read it through, I don't see anything in it beyond 'he looked at me in a funny way' sort of 'harassment' which is not harassment. Scotch egg in the fridge? Every shared fridge I've ever used has someone's biology experiment growing in the depths. Short sharp emails? That's business. Closing a window? - FFS Grow Up!
Your landlord has the right to serve notice and has dotted the i's and crossed the ts by serving it thrice. S/he will be expecting you to react and probably has a robust parcel of evidence of you as a difficult tenant. Everyone likes a tenant who nobody notices and pays their rent on time.
By all means, go to a free law clinic, but if you want any advice from it, you are going to have to take a leaf out of your landlord's book and bulletpoint your 'evidence' as your free half hour will go very quickly. Then LISTEN TO and act on the advice.
I now have a side hustle which I successfully run from a couple of containers. I also have Reynaud's Syndrome too - I never need to touch the metal of my containers because they are organised so I don't have to - I organised them after I'd moved all my stock halfway across GB in a day by myself. It is not rocket science - it is planning and preparation.
And sort out your home life.

 

[japancool]

I now have a side hustle which I successfully run from a couple of containers. I also have Reynaud's Syndrome too

The OP having Reynaud's Syndrome is just him finding an excuse not to do something. If he really wanted to do it, he'd find a way.

 

[chickenlady]

The OP having Reynaud's Syndrome is just him finding an excuse not to do something. If he really wanted to do it, he'd find a way.

Of course it is!

 

[ethical PR]

*to
I don't want to quibble over semantics when it's so meta. Surely you understand that it's a heavy matter that requires great planning and grace for a smooth switchover.

I have always been aware of the terms, may l redirect you to the OP.

You have six weeks lots of time in most places to find alternative office space. Your issue is you prefer to focus your time and effort on imaginary reasons that somehow the landlord giving you notice is not legal. It is.

 

[dylanmarlais]

There are two separate issues.

1. End of lease

2. The harassment and other issues.

The end of lease is very clear cut, you signed a contract allowing either party to leave at short notice. You cannot contest this. You can get movers to shift your stuff to a storage unit so you can’t use this an excuse to stay.

The harassment and other issues are a separate matter and you might have some luck with compensation but it will not delay your move out date.

Whether the lease has been terminated properly depends on the terms of the lease.

Many written agreements have wording that sets out precisely how notices must be given, such as to whom should they be addressed, what they should say, and when they can be given.

The courts can, and very often do, take a very strict approach to defective notices.

The fact that the landlord sent the notice by email, by leaving it in our pigeon hole, and by post suggests that he was hedging his bets. But this does not mean that the notice provisions in the lease have been complied with to the letter. Sometimes solicitors get the requirement wrong!

So, you need to check very carefully the notice provisions in the lease (usually towards the back-end of the lease) as to how notices are to be served, what they must contain, to whom they should be served, and when they must be served. As I say, the slightest defect can and often does prove fatal to an effective notice of termination.


As stated by Lord Justice Lewiston in one Court of Appeal judgment:

"The clear moral is: .....you must pay close attention to all the requirements of the clause, including the formal requirements, and follow them precisely."

As another judge, Lord Hoffman, said in a judgment of the House of Lords:

"If the clause had said that the notice had to be on blue paper, it would have been no good serving a notice on pink paper, however clear it might have been that the tenant wanted to terminate the lease."