Building industry + looming recession = ?

The question: What will happen (in theory) to the building trade when this looming recession hits?

The back story: I'm currently in the kitchen industry and I've spoken to a lot of our suppliers recently as well as a few builders. The over arching story is no surprise; it's been a crazy busy 24 months and suddenly over the last 2 months it's dropped off a cliff. This was also surprisingly said by our rep for a large appliance company, probably why he finally had time to come and see a small independent such as ourselves.

Builders have mentioned they were booked (and currently still are) over 12 months in advance but the size of the jobs they could cherry pick from has already started to dry up.

I've been reading up about what happened to the trades during the 2008 crash but this time it's different, right? Does the fact the industry has seen a boom recently mean it will come crashing down harder? Will prices of materials temporarily reduce as companies look to sell off excess stock/over ordering due to the massive drop in sales?

I'm tagging @The Byre (no offence to anyone else) here because I've found their insight's fascinating over the last few weeks and want to make sure they also chirp in with theories.
 
The subtle hit will be to your cashflow, even whilst you are busy.

45 debtor days will rcome 60, will become 90 etc.

I remember a crane hire customer moaning to me "I've just gone out and worked for 3 months for f##k all" he wasn't timid about collections!

Then the bad debts will start to hit.

These are you silent enemies, workload and rates are the visible ones
 
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pentel

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    During covid a lot of people accumulated cash as they couldn't spend as usual. They were also a lot of people stuck at home with time on their hands. This has resulted in a lot of demand for builders and materials with subsequent shortages and price increases.

    The increase in inflation and interest rates will start to mop up the excess cash and so demand will drop and also prices. It will take a while because merchants will try to hold when they are stuck with stock bought at high prices.

    At the start of covid the price of sheets of any clear plastics (think sneeze guards) more than doubled and lead times went out from days to months. Prices have reduced considerably from their highs and lead times are back to normal.
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Agree with a lot of the above interestingly I have always thought the current "issues" in the country ref inflation is going to hit home when the so called "well off" middle class's suddenly realise they are being hit. And talking to one of my neighbours just yesterday, who has now got to go back into the office, travel, costs up, car parking at station up, fuel here nearly £2 a litre along with everything else has suddenly realised his family has no spare cash and canceled his extension new kitchen etc. I think one heck of a lot of people are now finding themselves in a similar situation. Friends in the retail sector (high street shops) have also noticed a very sharp downturn this month.

    I have builders in the family likewise had order books full for 12months and are saying the same as you the "cherry picking" of work is almost impossible now and where the family member limited himself to a smallish radius of travel I think this policy is going out the window fast.

    On another thread I asked what are business doing to get ready for the recession (its here all but in name) I would suggest they need to look at every corner of their business and make some pretty ruthless judgements cashflow will be king and just like the last recession those that sleepwalk into this will undoubtably not come out the other side.
     
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    estwig

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    Large residential building projects, house extensions and loft conversions, I'm king of the castle, man and boy since before I was a teenager.

    Luxury projects, somewhere nice to sit and read the paper will die off. People will still need more space, the kids can't afford to leave, the parents need caring for at home and WFH is a big thing. Families are consolidating into an extended home, rather than spreading out across several properties.

    One of the problems come next spring, all these commercial builders going bust with bad credit to their name, will try and muscle in on the domestic market. These guys work on the basis of winning work with the cheapest quote, then looking for extras to bump the bottom line up, it's how the commercial building game works. Residential homeowners simply won't have it, they won't pay extras, the commercial builders get very upset about it!
     
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    MOIC

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    I have builders in the family likewise had order books full for 12months and are saying the same as you the "cherry picking" of work is almost impossible now and where the family member limited himself to a smallish radius of travel I think this policy is going out the window fast.

    On another thread I asked what are business doing to get ready for the recession (its here all but in name) I would suggest they need to look at every corner of their business and make some pretty ruthless judgements cashflow will be king and just like the last recession those that sleepwalk into this will undoubtably not come out the other side.
    Totally agree.

    Businesses need to expand on their service/products offered as well as their footprint.
     
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    MBE2017

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    Michael Burry, the guy who made hundreds of millions from the 2008 crash, is predicting the S&P will fall potentially another 50% from its already battered figure.

    The harder part of his prediction is over what time frame, it could be a year or two, it could take five or more years. Predictably a lot of experts are, like before, saying he is crazy.

    He is simply working off maths and figures, charts etc, using previous scenarios to predict the next crash. I watched a good video on his analysis last night, and it is potentially accurate, but nothing is set in stone. However, when someone with his record predicts a new depression it carries a lot more weight than most other experts.

    His theory is ATM very little money has left the markets, hence only 20/30% falls, once the real sell off starts, it becomes a whole new ball park.

    Construction tends to be one of those industries which hurt the fastest in a recession, I would consider looking at new areas to offset any downturn ASAP.
     
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    The question: What will happen (in theory) to the building trade when this looming recession hits?
    Your trust in me is touching - if a little misplaced! I may be an economist by training (a very long time ago) and of course, as such, I can predict anything, absolutely anything - except the future. Nobody can predict the future and only a fool tries to do so! But I am absolutely wizzo at predicting the past, so let's start there -

    As all the above have pointed out very eloquently, the last two years have been an aberration. People were given money to stay at home and not do anything. It was all freshly printed QE currency and has now become known as helicopter money. And as a recent interview with Mervyn King (ex-chair of the BoE) on Sky News in May, it was a grave mistake based upon a false understanding of MMT (Modern Monetary Theory - or as Pinocchio called it, his Magic Money Tree).

    (The reason central banks everywhere made this grave mistake, he said, lies in the way economics is taught today, combined with the way that mathematical economic models are built today. But that is a rather large subject and has younger economists wailing and gnashing their teeth.)

    So what happened in the past two years? Well, all that helicopter money began life as bank reserves looking for warm places to nest. And the warmest place to nest is assets, starting with property - homes! This was followed by any and all other assets, such as stocks, bonds and capital goods. Hell, you have to put your money into something!

    So the S&P 500 went from $2,300 in March 2020 to end 2021 at $4,766. According to Really-Moving, house prices in England shot up by 17% in 2021.

    But people aren't stupid. Unlike the government and the BoE, they know instinctively what happens when governments borrow money that they arithmetically will never be able to pay back and central banks everywhere print fresh supplies of currency to make up the shortfall - inflation. And gobs of it!

    "Hey Abigail, our house is now worth double what we paid for it - according to Zoopla, it's shot up by about £70,000 in just one year! I mean, what with all that cash they're giving us and interest rates at rock bottom, I think now is the time to get that new kitchen you always wanted."

    And out go the cheap and nasty Beko and Candy appliances and in come the Miele and Bosch machines - and some of that spending gets sidelined for his man-shed and a new laptop. And you get the call to order the machines and build the whole thing, complete with island and double sink and North American white oak worktop with walnut surrounds.

    Abigail is happy in her new kitchen and Dave is looking at naughty ladies on his new laptop in his new man-shed (AKA working from home). But now comes all that lose talk on the BBC about recession - and Abigail and Dave ain't stupid. Dave has to go back to work.

    And it's bad news at the Toilets-R-Us factory - orders are just not coming in. During the shut-down, all those bogs were flying off the shelves and with at least a quarter of the staff off sick, orders were piling up - and now half have been canceled and management is less than sanguine about the viability of the remaining orders. They may not get paid!

    Management is running about with long faces everywhere. Mr. Sprechlie from marketing has just come back from the States and he tells the office staff that the news in the US housing market is a whole lot worse than here.

    "And what happens there, happens here shortly afterwards!" he says.

    So on the weekend and when Dave has 'finished' looking at those naughty ladies, he looks at some US business reports and into the housing market in particular. He goes through the lot - Bloomberg, CNBC, Stansberry, anything and everything. He types 'US housing market' into YouTube - holy shi1! It's all bad!

    One major bank is predicting just a 30% housing price crash, most say it will be even worse! Even Zoopla-equivalent Zillow is predicting a crash. Property investors like Sam Zell and George Gammon are pointing out that well over one million houses are nearing completion in the US and prices are falling. There is an over-supply of mid- to upper-priced houses and that surfeit of supply was fueled by speculators betting on those crazy house prices going to the moon.

    Dave is now very worried and phones his economist friend Andrew who points out that as you move East, house volatility falls. UK house prices are nowhere nearly as volatile as in the US because we do not move as often. Go further East and volatility falls even further. In Germany, buying any property incurs high fees and takes a long time. Move to Eastern Europe and people stay in one place for several generations!

    You can buy a house and arrange a mortgage in some states in the US in 15 minutes. Here it takes 15 days and in Germany about 15 weeks. We sold a strip of land in Dresden and that took over a year. It took us about 15 weeks to sell a flat in Harrowgate (ages ago) and about 15 days to get our offer accepted and transfer the money for our present place (here in the UK).

    So now I'm thinking about the market and UK kitchens in particular - so I phoned up my friend John who fits luxury kitchens. None of that cheapo Wickes and B&Q contract stuff - we're talking tens of thousands here and can easily go to six-figure kitchen builds. We went to school together in about 49BC, so he, like me, is an OF*.

    I have just got off the phone to John (he's at a trade fair, doing deals and buying stuff) and he told me that business is booming in the luxury market. His core crew are booked for over a year and he cannot farm out any work to contractors for the next six months, as they too are up to their ears in work. That end of the market is booming!

    So I called up Bruce. He does budget contract fittings and repair work for the various chains. Business is definitely beginning to fall off and some of the chains seem to be having cash flow problems as they are now over three months behind with their payments.

    OK, so that is hardly a nationwide survey, but as a snapshot, it makes sense. Inflation is really biting and inflation is a direct tax on the poor and the middle classes, i.e. those who rely on the purchasing power of their incomes remaining steady. The rich on the other hand, only convert their wealth into currency when they need to exchange it for something.

    If you are wealthy, buying stuff sometimes feels like stealing. You want their precious things and you can give them these silly coloured beads that they call money and they are even grateful to you for buying their grand piano, their car, their land, their house, children, whatever!

    A tabletop made out of a giant slab of walnut that has been stored for over ten years and cured and treated for a year - £10,000? So? Yer, we'll have it! It looks nice. A carved granite lintel for the main entrance for £25,000. No problem!

    "Oh, young Rodney said that he wanted to become a record producer, so we got some advice from a broker and bought him a mixing desk designed by some chap called Rupert Neve for £300,000. Rodney is now trying to work out how to use it."

    For that end of the market, price is really not an issue. Just how many coloured beads should I give the natives for their island? In 1867, the United States government gave Russia 7.2 million coloured beads that it had printed in exchange for Alaska. That is the equivalent today of about 150 million coloured beads.

    So in answer to your question - what the F happens to the building trade when the recession hits? The cheap end comes to a shuddering halt for a while and the top end sobers up a bit, but carries on!

    Well, that's what happened in the past anyway.

    *Old Fart
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Your trust in me is touching - if a little misplaced! I may be an economist by training (a very long time ago) and of course, as such, I can predict anything, absolutely anything - except the future. Nobody can predict the future and only a fool tries to do so! But I am absolutely wizzo at predicting the past, so let's start there -

    As all the above have pointed out very eloquently, the last two years have been an aberration. People were given money to stay at home and not do anything. It was all freshly printed QE currency and has now become known as helicopter money. And as a recent interview with Mervyn King (ex-chair of the BoE) on Sky News in May, it was a grave mistake based upon a false understanding of MMT (Modern Monetary Theory - or as Pinocchio called it, his Magic Money Tree).

    (The reason central banks everywhere made this grave mistake, he said, lies in the way economics is taught today, combined with the way that mathematical economic models are built today. But that is a rather large subject and has younger economists wailing and gnashing their teeth.)

    So what happened in the past two years? Well, all that helicopter money began life as bank reserves looking for warm places to nest. And the warmest place to nest is assets, starting with property - homes! This was followed by any and all other assets, such as stocks, bonds and capital goods. Hell, you have to put your money into something!

    So the S&P 500 went from $2,300 in March 2020 to end 2021 at $4,766. According to Really-Moving, house prices in England shot up by 17% in 2021.

    But people aren't stupid. Unlike the government and the BoE, they know instinctively what happens when governments borrow money that they arithmetically will never be able to pay back and central banks everywhere print fresh supplies of currency to make up the shortfall - inflation. And gobs of it!

    "Hey Abigail, our house is now worth double what we paid for it - according to Zoopla, it's shot up by about £70,000 in just one year! I mean, what with all that cash they're giving us and interest rates at rock bottom, I think now is the time to get that new kitchen you always wanted."

    And out go the cheap and nasty Beko and Candy appliances and in come the Miele and Bosch machines - and some of that spending gets sidelined for his man-shed and a new laptop. And you get the call to order the machines and build the whole thing, complete with island and double sink and North American white oak worktop with walnut surrounds.

    Abigail is happy in her new kitchen and Dave is looking at naughty ladies on his new laptop in his new man-shed (AKA working from home). But now comes all that lose talk on the BBC about recession - and Abigail and Dave ain't stupid. Dave has to go back to work.

    And it's bad news at the Toilets-R-Us factory - orders are just not coming in. During the shut-down, all those bogs were flying off the shelves and with at least a quarter of the staff off sick, orders were piling up - and now half have been canceled and management is less than sanguine about the viability of the remaining orders. They may not get paid!

    Management is running about with long faces everywhere. Mr. Sprechlie from marketing has just come back from the States and he tells the office staff that the news in the US housing market is a whole lot worse than here.

    "And what happens there, happens here shortly afterwards!" he says.

    So on the weekend and when Dave has 'finished' looking at those naughty ladies, he looks at some US business reports and into the housing market in particular. He goes through the lot - Bloomberg, CNBC, Stansberry, anything and everything. He types 'US housing market' into YouTube - holy shi1! It's all bad!

    One major bank is predicting just a 30% housing price crash, most say it will be even worse! Even Zoopla-equivalent Zillow is predicting a crash. Property investors like Sam Zell and George Gammon are pointing out that well over one million houses are nearing completion in the US and prices are falling. There is an over-supply of mid- to upper-priced houses and that surfeit of supply was fueled by speculators betting on those crazy house prices going to the moon.

    Dave is now very worried and phones his economist friend Andrew who points out that as you move East, house volatility falls. UK house prices are nowhere nearly as volatile as in the US because we do not move as often. Go further East and volatility falls even further. In Germany, buying any property incurs high fees and takes a long time. Move to Eastern Europe and people stay in one place for several generations!

    You can buy a house and arrange a mortgage in some states in the US in 15 minutes. Here it takes 15 days and in Germany about 15 weeks. We sold a strip of land in Dresden and that took over a year. It took us about 15 weeks to sell a flat in Harrowgate (ages ago) and about 15 days to get our offer accepted and transfer the money for our present place (here in the UK).

    So now I'm thinking about the market and UK kitchens in particular - so I phoned up my friend John who fits luxury kitchens. None of that cheapo Wickes and B&Q contract stuff - we're talking tens of thousands here and can easily go to six-figure kitchen builds. We went to school together in about 49BC, so he, like me, is an OF*.

    I have just got off the phone to John (he's at a trade fair, doing deals and buying stuff) and he told me that business is booming in the luxury market. His core crew are booked for over a year and he cannot farm out any work to contractors for the next six months, as they too are up to their ears in work. That end of the market is booming!

    So I called up Bruce. He does budget contract fittings and repair work for the various chains. Business is definitely beginning to fall off and some of the chains seem to be having cash flow problems as they are now over three months behind with their payments.

    OK, so that is hardly a nationwide survey, but as a snapshot, it makes sense. Inflation is really biting and inflation is a direct tax on the poor and the middle classes, i.e. those who rely on the purchasing power of their incomes remaining steady. The rich on the other hand, only convert their wealth into currency when they need to exchange it for something.

    If you are wealthy, buying stuff sometimes feels like stealing. You want their precious things and you can give them these silly coloured beads that they call money and they are even grateful to you for buying their grand piano, their car, their land, their house, children, whatever!

    A tabletop made out of a giant slab of walnut that has been stored for over ten years and cured and treated for a year - £10,000? So? Yer, we'll have it! It looks nice. A carved granite lintel for the main entrance for £25,000. No problem!

    "Oh, young Rodney said that he wanted to become a record producer, so we got some advice from a broker and bought him a mixing desk designed by some chap called Rupert Neve for £300,000. Rodney is now trying to work out how to use it."

    For that end of the market, price is really not an issue. Just how many coloured beads should I give the natives for their island? In 1867, the United States government gave Russia 7.2 million coloured beads that it had printed in exchange for Alaska. That is the equivalent today of about 150 million coloured beads.

    So in answer to your question - what the F happens to the building trade when the recession hits? The cheap end comes to a shuddering halt for a while and the top end sobers up a bit, but carries on!

    Well, that's what happened in the past anyway.

    *Old Fart
    Great post as always......... how things just come about, took a ride with my son down to his unit this morning after posting here. We both commented on the van (large one) in front of us waiting to go through the gate. "Jesus" look at the angle of that van the back of it was almost dragging on the floor, we followed it into the yard and waiting there was the forklift they have onsite and we sat and watched them unloading ..... yes kitchen units into one of the small units. I recognised the logo on the side of the van so of course I just had to have a chat with them. "what you up to guys" (obvious question I know) "we are moving from our all singing dancing warehouse up the road into a cheaper unit" Yep middle range kitchen suppliers & fitters and they have already noticed their market has shrunk alarmingly over the last few months and they are cutting their cloth accordingly.

    As @The Byre mentioned above the middle class's are getting hit, those at the top will always have disposable income and those with even a bit more will just be living off the interest. So yes the cheap end will come to a shuddering halt and the top end will keep on moving and my close friend who sells very high priced property (in the mills) his customers who apparently don't have mortgages and pay in cash won't even blink.

    And nothing has really changed in the world

    This from another old Fart
     
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    MBE2017

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    To rub salt into the wound, I was chatting to a property finder the other day, reckoned he had a client borrowing 500,000 euros a year or so ago in Switzerland at -0.75% Apr. He invested through this guy for a 6.5% guaranteed return, over 7% return on free money.

    The rich will always get richer.
     
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    WaveJumper

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    To rub salt into the wound, I was chatting to a property finder the other day, reckoned he had a client borrowing 500,000 euros a year or so ago in Switzerland at -0.75% Apr. He invested through this guy for a 6.5% guaranteed return, over 7% return on free money.

    The rich will always get richer.
    That’s for sure as the old saying goes money makes money or as my son say he who dares wins and that was a clever little move that guy made, easy money
     
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    Bob Morgan

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    Yorkshire Economics 101 - Thou Knows!

    "Brass Up-Front!" It does NOT matter how large or small they are, or even the 'Bamboozlement of Corporate Rhetoric' such as "It's our Policy to Pay after 90 Days!" - So simple "Brass Up-Front - Or NOWT!" The 'Genuine' Clients and Customers will always comply AND, they will be with you for a long time! . . . "and, thou doesn't need Fancy CRM Software to know who they are!"
     
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    Yorkshire Economics 101 - Thou Knows!

    "Brass Up-Front!" It does NOT matter how large or small they are, or even the 'Bamboozlement of Corporate Rhetoric' such as "It's our Policy to Pay after 90 Days!" - So simple "Brass Up-Front - Or NOWT!" The 'Genuine' Clients and Customers will always comply AND, they will be with you for a long time! . . . "and, thou doesn't need Fancy CRM Software to know who they are!"
    There is some merit in this stance, however it will preclude you from certain types of work.


    It's nonsense to say that genuine customers will always comply - large contractors will have their own terms- and won't change them for you - so it's a delicate question of whether you want to work for those companies.

    Payment protection is always an option (not always straight forward in construction) but as a minimum, a good system of credit control is imperative- that is a process that starts before you offer credit
     
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    Bob Morgan

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    There is some merit in this stance, however it will preclude you from certain types of work.


    It's nonsense to say that genuine customers will always comply - large contractors will have their own terms- and won't change them for you - so it's a delicate question of whether you want to work for those companies.

    Payment protection is always an option (not always straight forward in construction) but as a minimum, a good system of credit control is imperative- that is a process that starts before you offer credit
    I have never found that to be an issue! I currently have several 'Core Clients' who I enjoy working with - AND I would go well out of my way to give them what they request! - They also acknowledge the process, too!

    In the recent past I severed relationships with large Plc's who were literally 'Taking the P1ss!' - It was business that I did not want - Nor needed! On the one hand it is great to have a 'Premier League House-Builder as a Client' - BUT, does he pay his bills on time? - Err No!

    Neither is it 'Nonsense' to suggest that ". . . genuine customers will always comply!" All of my 'Core Clients' did, as they operate in very much the same way as myself! - We do not "Meddle in Debt!"
     
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    Think of Bruce, the guy with the kitchen fitting company in my piece above. He has wages to pay, he has to pay for the materials he uses and he has other bills to meet. But one major multi-million-pound company is over 100 days behind in its payments to him. They are using him as a credit line. And with ONS inflation at 11% and real inflation probably about double that, that is a cost he really can not carry!
     
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    I have never found that to be an issue! I currently have several 'Core Clients' who I enjoy working with - AND I would go well out of my way to give them what they request! - They also acknowledge the process, too!

    In the recent past I severed relationships with large Plc's who were literally 'Taking the P1ss!' - It was business that I did not want - Nor needed! On the one hand it is great to have a 'Premier League House-Builder as a Client' - BUT, does he pay his bills on time? - Err No!

    Neither is it 'Nonsense' to suggest that ". . . genuine customers will always comply!" All of my 'Core Clients' did, as they operate in very much the same way as myself! - We do not "Meddle in Debt!"
    You have chosen not to deal with companies who want credit terms- which is a valid choice.

    It remains nonsense to say that genuine customers will always comply. There are many good, genuine businesses who operate on, and stick to their own credit terms.

    As a suppler your choice is to decide whether those terms work for you.
     
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    Think of Bruce, the guy with the kitchen fitting company in my piece above. He has wages to pay, he has to pay for the materials he uses and he has other bills to meet. But one major multi-million-pound company is over 100 days behind in its payments to him. They are using him as a credit line. And with ONS inflation at 11% and real inflation probably about double that, that is a cost he really can not carry!
    Totally - understanding and managing cashflow is critical to any business
     
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    Bob Morgan

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    I have never found that to be an issue! I currently have several 'Core Clients' who I enjoy working with - AND I would go well out of my way to give them what they request! - They also acknowledge the process, too!

    In the recent past I severed relationships with large Plc's who were literally 'Taking the P1ss!' - It was business that I did not want - Nor needed! On the one hand it is great to have a 'Premier League House-Builder as a Client' - BUT, does he pay his bills on time? - Err No!

    Neither is it 'Nonsense' to suggest that ". . . genuine customers will always comply!" All of my 'Core Clients' did, as they operate in very much the same way as myself! - We do not "Meddle in Debt!"
    For a little more substance, take at look at the link - Although I do recognise that following a Link to 'The Guardian' might prove troublesome for many on this site!

    Fairburn wanted a £110 Million Bonus! - Yet had left many Consultants, Contractors, and Sub-Contractors UNPAID!

    At one point I was informed "You will NEVER work for us again!" - The only response that I could utter was one of "Thank God for that!" - I 'Took a Hit' and moved-on!
     
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    Totally - understanding and managing cashflow is critical to any business
    Yes, but the point is that large companies also fail and right now are about to start failing at an increased rate of knots. Yes, 80% of SMEs fail within the first ten years in the UK. But big companies have the momentum to act in an even more risky manner sometimes.

    BHS, Thomas Cook, Comet, Poundworld, Blockbuster, Debenhams before the C19 thing and Arcadia after C19. And that's just the B2C world and there are thousands of B2C zombies staggering around out there, pretending to still be viable companies. They were kept barely alive with grants and BBLs, but their eyes are glazed over and there are dirty great big wooden stakes poking out of their chests.

    The OP was asking about the building trade and there, companies going out of business seems to be the rule rather than the exception! Building our studio was one guy's first gig after going out of business three times! And each time it was a complete and utter bankruptcy.

    Giving companies credit is a risky business and certainly very unwise in the building trade. And the domino effect of one company taking several smaller companies down with it is going to make itself felt in the coming couple of years. If they need credit, they should be talking to the banks and not to their suppliers!
     
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    fisicx

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    I'm working with a local builder (trying to sort out his website) and he is staying deliberately small. House refurbs and big extensions might bring in the cash but they also mean big overheads. Doing smaller projects (new bathrooms, knocking through, gardens walls etc) means he isn't out of pocket for thousands before getting paid.
     
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    MBE2017

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    Totally - understanding and managing cashflow is critical to any business

    I have mentioned this many times over the years, cash flow problems will kill more businesses than profit. Like another poster I choose very carefully who to extend credit too, and ALL companies however big never get credit for at least six months of paying cash.

    Too many people forget their primary concern should be not taking on debt at times like this. No good getting a £100k order thinking you are making £20k profit, to lose it all. Then you need another £600k just to get back to where you were before your loss.
     
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    Chris Ashdown

    Free Member
  • Dec 7, 2003
    13,399
    3,011
    Norfolk
    So a simple question is "why do so many small businesses give credit terms as a matter of course"

    When we were in business we only accepted credit terms from council or government businesses, all other were told "we only consider trading terms after 6 months of constant orders" and they never asked again just paid by card with order

    One order we did loose was Shell who offered us a contract with 90 days payment after they had confirmed the order was ok and starting end of following month
     
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    estwig

    Free Member
    Sep 29, 2006
    13,071
    4,830
    in the cloud
    I'm working with a local builder (trying to sort out his website) and he is staying deliberately small. House refurbs and big extensions might bring in the cash but they also mean big overheads. Doing smaller projects (new bathrooms, knocking through, gardens walls etc) means he isn't out of pocket for thousands before getting paid.

    There shouldn't be any big overheads. Stage payments stacked in his favour, footings going in, walls going up, roofs going on, all looks dramatic, very easy to get large stage payments out of the punters. These stage payments should be well above, what the actual cost is to the builder. Does make the job a bitch at the end, when there isn't any money left in it, you gotta deal with that.

    90 days terms for materials, big tools on hire, pay the accountant monthly, adwords for marketing, vans on lease, etc

    Happy days, a profitable business built on other people's money!
     
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    MBE2017

    Free Member
  • Feb 16, 2017
    4,735
    1
    2,418
    One order we did loose was Shell who offered us a contract with 90 days payment after they had confirmed the order was ok and starting end of following month

    Not extending credit will indeed mean the odd order lost, but I would rather lose the occassional order than the whole business. I almost lost a GEC order once, they stated being the great GEC they were safe as houses. I stated everyone had to trade on proforma for six months, it was the owners policy. I also mentioned Rolls Royce were considered safe before going bust.

    Anyone care to predict how long until we get a thread about potential insolvency due to a major credit term client going bust?
     
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    bodgitt&scarperLTD

    Free Member
    Nov 26, 2018
    816
    476
    Not extending credit will indeed mean the odd order lost, but I would rather lose the occassional order than the whole business. I almost lost a GEC order once, they stated being the great GEC they were safe as houses. I stated everyone had to trade on proforma for six months, it was the owners policy. I also mentioned Rolls Royce were considered safe before going bust.

    Anyone care to predict how long until we get a thread about potential insolvency due to a major credit term client going bust?
    They never stop, even in the good times. Boom and bust is a mainstay of the building trade due to an absence of any real consequence for the shysters at the top.

    Carrillion was massive, and that wasn't long ago.
     
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