How much to charge for a design

[Zodge302]

Hello, very long story short...

I am a drawing artist and I sell my designs on mugs, t-shirts etc through a print on demand service via my online shop.

In full transparency my shop barely has any sales, a lot of people admire my drawings and the things I sell but when it comes to actually parting with their cash it just doesn't happen. It's been a real struggle to get the ball rolling and I've had thoughts of giving up entirely.

However, a friend of mine (not a close friend but more of an acquaintance) has asked me to design some of their merch for stickers, tshirts etc.

They are a fairly new company <1 year old but due to celebrity backing they are sky rocketing.

I can feel the topic of cost coming up any day now and I want to be prepared.

I don't want to sell myself short but I also want to be realistic and see this as good exposure.

I don't know what to do. Usually for a drawing I would charge £100 per drawing. Do I charge this per design? Or should I charge a percentage of their profit? If so how much?

Thanks.

 

[MOIC]

I think it's a bit cheeky to ask for a percentage of their profit.

At best, your fee per design (which you'll own the IP) and perhaps a small royalty fee per product sold which includes that design. They'll have to be fairly honest and transparent with sales.

Selling your designs and commissioning your talents is the way to go.

If your designs are elaborate, £200 is not unreasonable.

Good luck!

 

[NickGrogan]

Why would you charge them a different rate from the usual rate?
Why would you charge them a percentage of the profit?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you need to have reasons for charging differently, other than you think that they have money.

 

[Zodge302]

Why would you charge them a different rate from the usual rate?
Why would you charge them a percentage of the profit?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you need to have reasons for charging differently, other than you think that they have money.

I wasn't saying I would charge them differently. I was saying I usually charge £100.. should I charge them this as opposed to a percentage of profit.

 

[NickGrogan]

Have you charged anyone a percentage of the profit before?
Have they offered a percentage of the profit?

 

[Zodge302]

I think it's a bit cheeky to ask for a percentage of their profit.

At best, your fee per design (which you'll own the IP) and perhaps a small royalty fee per product sold which includes that design. They'll have to be fairly honest and transparent with sales.

Selling your designs and commissioning your talents is the way to go.

If your designs are elaborate, £200 is not unreasonable.

Good luck!

Ok yes that's sort of what I meant instead of profit. I've never done this before and wasn't expecting it to ever happen so it was all out of the blue for me. Thanks.

 

[Zodge302]

Have you charged anyone a percentage of the profit before?
Have they offered a percentage of the profit?

Nobody has ever come to me with an offer like this. The conversation of money hasn't come up yet.

 

[MOIC]

It might be an idea to give them 2 options:

1. £200 per design.

2. £100 per design plus a royalty fee of 10p per sale which includes that design, whether it's a t-shirt, mug, phone case etc etc.

 

[intheTRADE]

It can be tricky when first starting out on how to price and scale your work

You need to weigh each opportunity up on its individual merit

You mention they are sky rocketing, so with my business head on, I would be instantly thinking I want a slice of this if it was my artwork they are now wanting to use -

Do not undervalue your work for a measly £100 if they are going to be making 000's from it

I would 100% be asking for a percentage of the sales moving forward with a minimum payment to be made to you should your share not reach a certain level of revenue after a certain level of time

 

[Zodge302]

It can be tricky when first starting out on how to price and scale your work

You need to weigh each opportunity up on its individual merit

You mention they are sky rocketing, so with my business head on, I would be instantly thinking I want a slice of this if it was my artwork they are now wanting to use -

Do not undervalue your work for a measly £100 if they are going to be making 000's from it

I would 100% be asking for a percentage of the sales moving forward with a minimum payment to be made to you should your share not reach a certain level of revenue after a certain level of time

That's my thoughts exactly. I am a natural people pleaser, I'd give them the designs for free because I'm soft! but that's no good for business.

 

[MOIC]

You want to keep them as a customer, so be reasonable with your prices without underselling yourself. The end goal is to have them as a continued customer to return for more of your designs.

As a comparison, a customer of mine had a product commissioned from a top tier designer, who charged £450 for the design, card patterns & full tech pack. This was her day rate, but as I said very high end.

 

[MBE2017]

I think charging a license fee, but retaining ownership and copyright is the way to go. Bear in mind, if their sales are sky rocketing this could be your chance to break into new clients.

You might as an example charge £150 for use on t shirts, £75 for stickers etc, for a set period, ie annually.

Best of luck.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Hi @Zodge.

I spent about 18 years as commercial artist - finished art, sign-writing, airbrush illustration, etc. (non-digital work). I would be able to advise you if I could see some samples of your work. I had a quick look on Deviantart for "Zodge" and found:

https://www.deviantart.com/zodg/gallery

Is this you?

By the way, does the "Zod" part of your username refer to General Zod - one of Superman's enemies?

 

[estwig]

Why would you charge them a different rate from the usual rate?
Why would you charge them a percentage of the profit?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but you need to have reasons for charging differently, other than you think that they have money.

I design for a living, if the client has a Mercedes on the drive, they pay more!

 

[Gyumri]

I would 100% be asking for a percentage of the sales moving forward with a minimum payment to be made to you

Then you wouldn't get any work unless you are Banksy.

Forget about royalties. Just charge a reasonable sum per job. A design on a mug is very different from a design on a pack of playing cards.

I would go in modestly with a token charge of say £100 for a mug plus a further £200 for the design if it does well.

A designer should build up confidence in the client first and then having understood his needs and taste work together.

Doing design work takes a long time to get the client's approval and it is best to start modestly regarding pricing for the first item. The next item you can charge more and so on.

The IP will not belong to the designer but to the client unless some other arrangement is agreed.

 

[Zodge302]

Hi @Zodge.

I spent about 18 years as commercial artist - finished art, sign-writing, airbrush illustration, etc. (non-digital work). I would be able to advise you if I could see some samples of your work. I had a quick look on Deviantart for "Zodge" and found:

https://www.deviantart.com/zodg/gallery

Is this you?

By the way, does the "Zod" part of your username refer to General Zod - one of Superman's enemies?

Hi, no this is not me lol. My name is Zoe and Zodge was a nickname I had growing up lol. If you look up my site Carder & Mason, that is me

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Hi, no this is not me lol. My name is Zoe and Zodge was a nickname I had growing up lol. If you look up my site Carder & Mason, that is me

The expression, 'sell the sizzle - not the sausage' is about portraying something in it's most consumable format. A Pie with the crust on cannot compete with a Pie cut in half showing the contents, with steam rising from the plate and gravy oozing from the base.

Fish jump out of the water, wrestle on the end of a line or dart about in a foaming sea and make for much more saleable designs. Your images, as good as they are, are just Fish.

You've put plenty of effort into describing the Giclee print and tissue paper packaging but left off any detail about the fish itself.

Take a look here for some inspiration: https://www.artbrands.com/product/fishing-transfer-bundle/

PS: Maybe even buy in some of these ready to go t-shirt transfers and add them alongside your current range?

 

[kulture]

Then you wouldn't get any work unless you are Banksy.

Forget about royalties. Just charge a reasonable sum per job. A design on a mug is very different from a design on a pack of playing cards.

I would go in modestly with a token charge of say £100 for a mug plus a further £200 for the design if it does well.

A designer should build up confidence in the client first and then having understood his needs and taste work together.

Doing design work takes a long time to get the client's approval and it is best to start modestly regarding pricing for the first item. The next item you can charge more and so on.

The IP will not belong to the designer but to the client unless some other arrangement is agreed.

As usual I have to completely disagree with Gyumri. First the design Intelectual Property belongs to the designer unless the contract says otherwise. It would be best to stipulate it explicitly in the contract.

Further it would be a good idea to talk to your friend to establish the ground rules. You want paid, are they anticipating a free design? I would hang onto the IP unless they want to pay more. If this is likely to end up as the new comnpany Logo or similar the expect them to want the IP.

It is impossible for anyone to suggest a fee per sale. If they were planning to sell millions then 10p per sale would be excessive, but if they were only planning tens, then 10p per sale is ridiculous.

Several respondents here have claimed expertise in this area, and if you can qualify this then go with their advice rather some random self appointed "expert" like me for example.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Several respondents here have claimed expertise in this area, and if you can qualify this then go with their advice rather some random self appointed "expert" like me for example.

Please find below a couple of my airbrush artworks plus a couple of drawings. (WARNING: THERE IS A NUDE PAINTING IN THERE). Please read descriptions in the 'About' sections - absolutely no digital manipulation involved. The last one is a plasticine model from which the defenderbot was airbrushed (which I'm currently using as my avatar here).

Airbrushed-Girl-on-Car-Bonnet hosted at ImgBB

Airbrushed girl on car bonnet No digital manipulation. 13 hours. Tools: Devilbiss airbrush. Hand cut Frisket Film stencils. Hand cut tracing paper stencils for

ibb.co

SEAL-copy hosted at ImgBB

No digital manipulation. Airbrush. Freehand. Polyurethane two-pack paint on side of truck. 9 hours.

ibb.co

Airbrushed-Koala hosted at ImgBB

Airbrushed Koala No digital manipulation. 8 hours. Tools: Devilbiss airbrush. Media for the painting: Polyurethane two pack paint. Substrate: Side of Collex

ibb.co

TROLL-0003 hosted at ImgBB

TROLL A sketch for a portrait of my daughter - a cheeky little troll who always refused to take a bath! (The troll's pot belly and body posture was pinched from

ibb.co

TROLL-0004 hosted at ImgBB

Image TROLL-0004 hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

DEFENDERBOT-00008 hosted at ImgBB

Defenderbot (a brave mercenary defender of our star sector) No digital manipulation. Airbrush. Gouache. Bristol paper. Tracing paper stencils. 8 hours. Warm-up

ibb.co

DEFENDERBOT hosted at ImgBB

Plasticine model created for an airbrush painting.

ibb.co

@kulture. I think you and a couple of others have provided some great advice with respect to IP, business arrangements, contracts, etc.. Unfortunately, down on the streets of the commercial central business districts and industrial estates where I worked, such fancy deals were not available. Most of my business had to be done on a handshake and, as estwig implied, there were both low- and high-paying jobs from both fair and unfair customers.

One of the best customers I had was Donald Trump - well, not actually him in person, it was for one of his offices in Smithfield, Sydney selling commercial real estate. I quoted about $500 for the initial shop front, but they gave me their entire budget which was a couple of hundred extra.

I would really need to see some good work from Zoe in order to give an opinion on how she should deal with her client, and also on how she might have a successful business and a career in art.

 

[kulture]

Nice art @UkAppCoder. I agree most business deals are done by handshake in the real world. I personally value such deals more and will never go back on one. That said I always follow up with an email detailing the main points of what we agreed in a friendly manner. Not a formally worded contract as such but a reminder for both parties what was agreed. In the most part this has been fine, on rare occasion it has led to a reply "no I did not mean xxx OR that was not my understanding..." and such feedback from the begining is invaluable.

 

[Gyumri]

First the design Intelectual Property belongs to the designer unless the contract says otherwise.

Correct - but this will invariably be bought for £1 or similar which will be referred to in the contract and there is no likelihood of the client not wanting the copyright.

I agree that if the design is going to be the client's logo then a greater price could be sought.

 

[fisicx]

Correct - but this will invariably be bought for £1 or similar which will be referred to in the contract and there is no likelihood of the client not wanting the copyright.

Anyone selling IP for £1 is being ripped off. Nobody in the art and design world I know would ever consider selling IP for so little. And even if sold they still retain rights as the originator.

 

[Gyumri]

Anyone selling IP for £1 is being ripped off. Nobody in the art and design world I know would ever consider selling IP for so little. And even if sold they still retain rights as the originator.

The £1 is the equivalent of the old peppercorn as there has to be some consideration for the fact that the copyright is being sold. Nobody is being "ripped off" because the designer makes his money for producing the design in the same way that an architect gets paid for designing a house. (It is most unlikely that an architect will have a stake in what the house sells for.)

It's all about a designer pushing for the best deal- sometimes copyright might be included and sometimes not. Likewise same applies to a royalty.

 

[fisicx]

You are mixing copyright and IP. They are not the same thing.

 

[Gyumri]

You are mixing copyright and IP. They are not the same thing.

What other IP right are you referring to? The right to be recognised as the originator? That doesn't apply in this case. Copyright is the primary right that a graphic designer is selling if they, like the OP, are providing designs for products.

Without the copyright it would be pointless in engaging any designer and that is best paid for clearly in any contract or order.

A commission for an oil painting would be different where the artist might sell the original but retain the copyright for his own benefit.

 

[fisicx]

What other IP right are you referring to?

You said to sell IP for £1. IP is a collective concept. You may for example create something that uses a copyright image on behalf of the client. You retain the IP but they hold the copyright.

Intellectual property and your work

What intellectual property is, how you can protect it, and which of copyright, patents, design right and trade marks applies to your work.

www.gov.uk

It can be very complicated and cause all sorts of issues as can be seen by the numerous case studies of legal actions taken by artists and creatives.

 

[UkAppCoder]

How can intellectual property ever be sold?

For example, if I produce an artwork from my brain, then that's it - it can never be said that any other brain produced that artwork!

But if I sell the copyright to that same artwork, i.e. if I sell the exclusive right to copy that artwork and sell it, then even though it is my intellectual property, I would no longer have the right to copy and sell it.

Isn't this what happened when Michael Jackson acquired songs by the Beatles? That is, Michael Jackson ended up having the only exclusive right to make money from the intellectual property of the Beatles (or perhaps more accurately, mainly of John Lennon and Paul McCartney), where not even the owners of that intellectual property had the right to copy and sell it.

I don't know, I'm not a legal expert, but that's how it sounds from the phrases copyright and intellectual property.

If this is correct, then it follows that intellectual property can never be sold. Copyright and intellectual property are two very different things.

 

[Gyumri]

You may for example create something that uses a copyright image on behalf of the client. You retain the IP but they hold the copyright.

You are quite right but that's not what this OP is doing. He is using his own creations as a graphic artist. I don't know of any designer who would create something using somebody else's image with the intention then of flogging it to the client to stick on their mugs or other merchandise. It doesn't happen in real life!

No graphic artist worth their salt would even think of going down that road which achieves nothing and leads nowhere - quite apart from the legal aspect of using another artist's work.

 

[UkAppCoder]

I don't know of any designer who would create something using somebody else's image with the intention then of flogging it to the client to stick on their mugs or other merchandise. It doesn't happen in real life!

Honestly, Gyumri, you could not be more wrong about this! There are countless numbers of these shysters doing this kind of thing every day. Let me explain.

Let's start with the following premise: as my A Level Art lecturer once told us: "at the end of the day, everything is pinched!".

For example, my 'Seal' and 'Koala' above were originally small black and white photographs printed in books (the size of small thumbnails). My 'Girl on Car Bonnet' was Miss Poland which was printed in a copy of the Penthouse magazine in the early 1990's (size, about A5). Even though they were all copied by eye - with no tracing - no projection - and no grid tools being used, and no digital manipulation whatsoever, they were, at the end of the day, 'pinched' from photographs.

My 'Troll' was something taken directly from my mind as I witnessed my toddler daughter playing merry hell with my wife at bath time one evening. My 'Defenderbot' painting is from a real life 3D model which I created from three lumps of plasticine. So, these artworks are pure enough, not pinched from anywhere.

Now, just for the record, I can absolutely guarantee you that I could render anything directly from real life if necessary. For example, I could take your wife or girlfriend, sit her down in the middle of my studio, adjust the lighting, and produce studies, sketches and basic water-colours which could eventually assist me in producing a stunning genuine original painting of her in any medium of your choice. My favourite medium happens to be airbrush.

Having said this, and knowing that other natural purists like myself would rather commit suicide than plagiarise someone else's work, there are, however, countless scoundrels and fakes and phonies that would have absolutely no qualms whatsoever in stealing the intellectual property of genuine artists and selling it on as their own.

But you can rest assured that we genuine artists regard people like them as the scum of the earth.

 

[kulture]

You are quite right but that's not what this OP is doing. He is using his own creations as a graphic artist. I don't know of any designer who would create something using somebody else's image with the intention then of flogging it to the client to stick on their mugs or other merchandise. It doesn't happen in real life!

No graphic artist worth their salt would even think of going down that road which achieves nothing and leads nowhere - quite apart from the legal aspect of using another artist's work.

I really don’t think that you have a clue what you are talking about nor what is relevant for this thread.

The op has been asked to create a design for a company. The op wants to know how much to charge. The op has been advised to talk to the customer and see what they expect. The op has been advised to get the agreement in writing, or at least confirm the agreement in writing. The op has been advised that the IP normally remains with the creator but can be sold. See https://www.gov.uk/intellectual-property-an-overview

The op has been advised to charge more if the IP is to be sold as well as the design. The only mention of using someone else’s work was the distraction caused by you and the side issue of Michael Jackson buying the works of the Beatles. If you bothered to read and understand the thread you would get this. Instead , as usual, you have gone off on an irrelevant and misleading tangent.

I would strongly advise the op not to de-value their work and sell off all rights for just £1. It would give the impression that your work is cheap and valueless.

Further, you are just guessing what the customer wants and what the customer expects. It is far better to actually talk to the customer and make decisions based on facts and not internet inventions.

 

[Gyumri]

work was the distraction caused by you and the side issue of Michael Jackson buying the works of the Beatles.

Sorry but are you actually on the same forum let alone the same thread?

The OP has received enough responses to his queries but if you wish to add anything further please do so.

 

[kulture]

Sorry but are you actually on the same forum let alone the same thread?

The OP has received enough responses to his queries but if you wish to add anything further please do so.

Look at post 27. But you are correct, it is pointless continuing discussion with you as it is off topic and not at all helpful to the op.

 

[Gyumri]

I would strongly advise the op not to de-value their work and sell off all rights for just £1.

Have you actually spent any time working with designers? You completely miss the point which is not that the OP or anyone else is being asked to "devalue" their work, but to charge a worthwhile price for their work and ensure that if they are selling the copyright that this is referred to as a distinct element of the contract or order. That sum for the copyright can be 50p but it has to be something to amount in law to "consideration". Often it can be set for convenience as £1.

If you have engaged designers then you will know what I am talking about but with respect I think from your comment that you clearly haven't.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Look at post 27.

Er, yeah, sorry .. I think that was me .. I do tend to prattle off on a tangent sometimes!

 

[Gyumri]

I would strongly advise the op not to de-value their work and sell off all rights for just £1.

Have you actually spent any time working with designers? You completely miss the point which is not that the OP or anyone else is being asked to "devalue" their work, but to charge a worthwhile price for their work and ensure that if they are selling the copyright that this is referred to as a distinct element of the contract or order. That sum for the copyright can be 50p but it has to be something to amount in law to "consideration". Often it can be set for convenience as £1.

If you have engaged designers then you will know I am talking about but with respect I think from your comment that you clearly haven't

 

[kulture]

Have you actually spent any time working with designers?

Yes I have.

You completely miss the point which is not that the OP or anyone else is being asked to "devalue" their work, but to charge a worthwhile price for their work and ensure that if they are selling the copyright that this is referred to as a distinct element of the contract or order. That sum for the copyright can be 50p but it has to be something to amount in law to "consideration". Often it can be set for convenience as £1.

No I have not missed the point. £1 or £0.50 is a ludicrous amount to sell off all future rights for the design of merchandise like t-shirts and stickers for a rapidly expanding company.

If you have engaged designers then you will know what I am talking about but with respect I think from your comment that you clearly haven't.

As usual you are making unfounded assumptions.

 

[Gyumri]

"There are countless numbers of these shysters doing this kind of thing every day. Let me explain."

There's no need to explain. That's why I said "any designer worth their salt" would not knowingly incorporate copyrighted material.

You are not creating designs for reproducing on merchandise but if you were then of course you can "copy and paste" and modify using existing material. However, that's not what this OP is asking about. He wants to create his own designs and sell them to his client.

I agree with you however that many designs which are not created from scratch may well incorporate protected works but if they do then they can't be sold legitimately.

 

[Gyumri]

Yes I have.



No I have not missed the point. £1 or £0.50 is a ludicrous amount to sell off all future rights for the design of merchandise like t-shirts and stickers for a rapidly expanding company.

Excuse me but nobody is suggesting that a graphic designer like the OP is being asked to sell off their rights in their work for nothing but £1.

The £1 is for the copyright. The £200 or whatever the OP can charge is for producing the design.

Whether the client is an expanding company or a multi-National is irrelevant. Maybe the client can make untold millions from the design or only £50- that's not the designer's concern.

The artist or in this case the graphic designer names his price for the work, which can include assigning copyright or not.

If he wants to try and secure a royalty for each product sold he can only ask but in that case unless he is Bansky he is likely to be politely shown the door.

 

[Gyumri]

How can intellectual property ever be sold?

Intellectual property sometimes called "know how" or "trade secrets" is often sold as assets of a company. "IP" generally refers to intellectual property rights.

 

[kulture]

Excuse me but nobody is suggesting that a graphic designer like the OP is being asked to sell off their rights in their work for nothing but £1.

The £1 is for the copyright. The £200 or whatever the OP can charge is for producing the design.

Whether the client is an expanding company or a multi-National is irrelevant. Maybe the client can make untold millions from the design or only £50- that's not the designer's concern.

The artist or in this case the graphic designer names his price for the work, which can include assigning copyright or not.

If he wants to try and secure a royalty for each product sold he can only ask but in that case unless he is Bansky he is likely to be politely shown the door.

So I basically disagree with you. Yet again you miss the point.

It is pointless discussing anything with you as you are arguing based on assumptions.

The OP should talk to the customer to see what they expect. Then negotiate based on that rather than invented points on a forum.

That said I still feel that there is a price for doing the design, a price for selling the IP, and there is additionally a price for securing royalties per sale. The IP can be sold for a one off payment, or kept with an ongoing royalty. Depending on what the customer thinks, it is indeed unlikely that they will agree to a royalty payment.

Whilst it is not likely to be relevant on this thread I have known customers wanting cheap or even free designs with the promise of ongoing royalty revenue.

I am sure that we can all think of different ways to charge for designs, and indeed set different values on them. It is all pointless without getting facts from the customer.