Energy Suppliers Going Bust

Ozzy

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  • Feb 9, 2003
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    We had four energy suppliers go bust last week, and then today I hear some rumours from a friend in the industry that four more are at risk of going under.
    I then see somewhere that the Government looks to be preparing a tax payers bailout for the industry (memories of the banks in 2008 anyone?)

    I see things like this and then wonder about the the privatisation of core utilities, should they be run by private businesses that can go bust? or is there a deeper issue behind why so many energy suppliers in quick succession go bust that the government needs to start looking at bailing them out?
     

    fisicx

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    Read Private Eye. They have been warning of this for a long time. And my wife who does business insurance has then all at high risk.
     
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    UKSBD

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  • Dec 30, 2005
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    I looked at a few energy companies a few years ago it lookd like Pheonix charter back then.

    Get a lot of money in from prepaid customers, set up EBT, lend company money to EBT, EBT buys all the directors shares, company goes bust, start again
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    I dont see anything wrong with the industry being private because it was a money pit in public ownership
    There is a lack of regulation coupled with gullible consumers that are obsessed only with their energy costs and their credit score
    I understand that our companies in the UK no longer get groupage purchase power now we have left the EU
    I would like to learn more about this :)
     
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    thetiger2015

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    I dont see anything wrong with the industry being private because it was a money pit in public ownership
    There is a lack of regulation coupled with gullible consumers that are obsessed only with their energy costs and their credit score

    I don't blame people for this really. They're bombarded with messages about 'easy switching' and how you're a bit of a mug if you don't switch your energy supplier every few months. Staying with the same company gets you nowt. We've been with our supplier for several years, the costs keep climbing but I really cannot be bothered with the fall out from constantly switching suppliers to save a few pounds a year.

    This is exactly the same problem we have with transport. In government hands, it's run badly, burns lots of money on vanity projects etc. In private hands, it's run badly, burns lots of money on vanity projects etc.

    It's been like this for decades. I think the last time there was any progress was the Victorian period? Large amounts of industrialisation and technological advances. Since then, it's just been a money pit for tax payers.

    What's changed more recently, is the ability of the government to twist the message slightly. By saying 'the government will save these businesses', people don't seem to realise that means the tax payer. So, the government comes riding in on a white horse, saves Christmas, all praise the Government and.....huge tax rises next year to pay for it all. Meanwhile, will the individually energy company bosses be quizzed on this? No, because they've already blamed it on wholesale prices from a distant land. Same as 2008...'it was the americans fault that we didn't know how sub prime mortgages worked but still sent them billions anyway'.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Given each consumer has only one inlet for utilities, and the supply from every company is the same, how can you possibly have a market in utilities? Some 'green' utility companies guarantee that you only receive power from renewable souces. How can that possibly work? The whole idea of a market is just idealogical rubbish. The only difference between state owned supply and private supply is that the private supply has to factor in profit for the private company.
     
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    Given each consumer has only one inlet for utilities, and the supply from every company is the same, how can you possibly have a market in utilities? Some 'green' utility companies guarantee that you only receive power from renewable souces. How can that possibly work? The whole idea of a market is just idealogical rubbish. The only difference between state owned supply and private supply is that the private supply has to factor in profit for the private company.

    There is, however, a market in energy which is supplied to the network. It is not really practical to link each electron to the end consumer who gets the electron. Hence the market operates on the basis of energy injected into the gas or electric grid and energy that comes out.

    Much that people wish that the laws of Conservation of Energy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics could be wished away by hopes and dreams they cannot.

    In the end if we don't have the energy available it will not get to the consumer and the marginal price will increase (remembering that quite a few people who are retail consumers have already hedged their utiility bills with fixed price contracts)

    Obviously it is possible to nationalise these systems in which case we get scarcity and/or high prices rather than just high prices. Alternatively governments start subsidising energy consumption which is a route towards long term fiscal pain.

    What the retail utility companies do is to link up end consumers with wholesale supplies and arrange for various forms of hedging in order to offer fixed price contracts.
     
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    D

    Deleted member 335660

    We had four energy suppliers go bust last week, and then today I hear some rumours from a friend in the industry that four more are at risk of going under.
    I then see somewhere that the Government looks to be preparing a tax payers bailout for the industry (memories of the banks in 2008 anyone?)

    I see things like this and then wonder about the the privatisation of core utilities, should they be run by private businesses that can go bust? or is there a deeper issue behind why so many energy suppliers in quick succession go bust that the government needs to start looking at bailing them out?
    I have always felt that to privatize electric and water was a bad move.
    However they are private and should not be bailed out. Besides so many are owned by foreign companies now, so that could be another issue.
     
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    However they are private and should not be bailed out. Besides so many are owned by foreign companies now, so that could be another issue.
    As I understand it there is a suggestion that those people who are currently customers of the insolvent companies should be provided with fixed price contracts at the risk of the taxpayer. This may be described as "bailing out" by the media, but is not really a bail out of the companies. They would still go bust.

    However, the partial nationalisation and refinancing of the banks in 2009 is often described as bailing them out when in fact it bailed out their customers rather than the owners of the banks who lost a lot of money (I did not have any bank shares at that time).

    Whether it is a good idea or not to protect the customers from having to pay possibly 3-4 times as much for their gas over the next few months I don't know because I don't have enough information to make a judgment.
     
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    Ozzy

    Founder of UKBF
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  • Feb 9, 2003
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    Well seems my friend was on the money. I wake up this morning to headlines and news of energy companies and the industry on the brink of collapse (sensationalised headlines maybe or maybe true).
    I’m with @Trevor Andrews and don’t believe utilities stand up to being privatised. The infrastructure doesn’t support it for reasons already mentioned above.
     
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    fisicx

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    Also worth nothing that many of these energy suppliers are just brokers. They don't generate any power, they just broker deals with the producers.

    A number of local authorities tried to run they own energy companies and failed (after spending a load of cash on the venture). Example: https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/robin-hood-energy-goes-administration-4880970

    "The council has said it expects its losses to be around £38 million"

    Hopefully @NickGrogan will be able to shed some light on the situation
     
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    Given each consumer has only one inlet for utilities, and the supply from every company is the same, how can you possibly have a market in utilities? Some 'green' utility companies guarantee that you only receive power from renewable souces. How can that possibly work? The whole idea of a market is just idealogical rubbish. The only difference between state owned supply and private supply is that the private supply has to factor in profit for the private company.

    It's a first!

    I never thought we would agree on a political point!
     
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    I

    InsuranceBroker

    Everyone wants something for nothing with no foresight into what 'free' or 'cheap' costs. The government exploits this simplistic view to increase profit until they run out of road because other countries are better than they are at their own game. We, the people, suffer from our ignorance and the agendas of those that provide services. 'Green' is code for greed and I'm very interested to see how this 'energy crisis' pushes us towards 'cheap' electricity for vehicles which will magically become not so cheap but no alternative. It's a sick cycle we are perpetually pulled into and exhausting. The less government involvement in things and the better we do as a people when we force true competition through good old fashioned supply and demand that goes further than the product.
     
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    My first thought was why can't they hedge prices
    Hedging costs money. Money they don't have because of the competition to be just a little bit cheaper than the next guy.

    Like most things in the UK, the energy market is a mess - and it's a mess largely created by successive governments and their short-term thinking. What I call 'Government by Potatoes'!

    (A very long time ago, some Prussian senior officer ordered his troops to march through a potato field. Another officer ordered them out of the potato field. The first officer ordered them back in. The second officer was more senior and ordered them back out of the potato field - this lead to the expression "Rein in die Kartoffeln, raus aus den Kartoffeln!" - into the potatoes, out of the potatoes! In Germany today, a series of countermanding orders is known as 'Management by potatoes!')

    Diesel is good: Diesel is BAD. Cheap energy is good: cheap energy is BAD. Cheap food is good: cheap food is BAD. The EU will protect us: the EU is now our sworn enemy. Nationalise everything: privatise everything!
    It's a sick cycle we are perpetually pulled into and exhausting.
    This glorious nonsense has been going on since the war. It has given us the most magnificent chaos in everything that has been thus affected - the second-worst health system in Europe (after Malta), a chaotic, slow and expensive rail system, bad roads, a failing justice system and now we have a failing energy market. Quelle surprise!

    This government has been particularly brilliant at doing handbrake turns. Usually, one government countermands everything done by a previous administration - but this lot actually manages to countermand itself. Government by potatoes has now become an art form!

    Previous statements include No tax rises! No NI rise! No border in the Irish Sea!

    On Monday, Kwarteng said, "There is absolutely no question of the lights going out or people being unable to heat their homes."

    So you had better make sure you have got plenty of candles and firewood!

     
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    It's a combination of problems that are all occurring at the same time.

    Firstly energy suppliers are glorified tax collectors. about 65% of the cost of electricity is made of up green taxes/levies that are paying for all the solar panels on people roofs, turbines on hill sides and offshore wind farms. These taxes increase every year and have been the main driver of price increases for the last few years. These taxes are collected by suppliers and paid to the Government in installments. A big instalment is due each October. This is why suppliers "normally" go bust in the winter.

    The second problem is hedging. It's a good idea and everyone should do it, but how does it work? You can't hedge individual supplies, the volumes are too small, and how many do you hedge. Do you hedge all the customers you have now? Or all the customers you think you'll have in a month or two? The next issue is how much to hedge - will it be a cold winter or mild? If its cold, when? A bad November means different hedging to a bad December. Hedging is also expensive and energy margins are low.

    The third problem is the price cap, this is in theory a good idea, but if the government keeps raising the tax element and cannot control the commodity prices then how does a non responsive cap work? Domestic energy prices are currently loss making for all suppliers. This isn't sustainable and something has to give. If the government keeps the price cap at current levels more suppliers will fail, the cost of failure is passed on to existing suppliers, so therefore fail and so on.

    Gas can be stored allowing suppliers to buy in the summer when it's cheap and less in the winter when the prices rise. Except that the UK closed most of it's storage and now only has enough for around 10 days of usage.

    Wholesale gas prices are driven by global demand, the economies of SE Asia are recovering and buying more gas, driving up the price of LNG shipments.

    The Russian built a new pipeline to deliver gas to Europe, its finished, but isn't pumping gas and the German's haven't approved it yet. This could take months to get approved.

    The Russian's could ship more gas via Ukraine, but they don't want to pay the Ukrainian government.

    We get a lot of gas from Norway, but less than usual because maintenance was reduced last year due to Covid. That maintenance is happening now.

    We have our own gas supplies, but we did do enough maintenance either.

    And we've had the wrong kind of wind for the few months. It should be much windier, producing much more power, but a lot of turbines are not running at all.

    The weather affects Europe as well, which we import power from, so when they have problems, we have problems and vice versa.

    Finally, there was a fire which damaged the largest electricity connection we have to France, and that won't be repaired for months.
     
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    It's a combination of problems that are all occurring at the same time.

    Firstly energy suppliers are glorified tax collectors. about 65% of the cost of electricity is made of up green taxes/levies that are paying for all the solar panels on people roofs, turbines on hill sides and offshore wind farms. These taxes increase every year and have been the main driver of price increases for the last few years. These taxes are collected by suppliers and paid to the Government in installments. A big instalment is due each October. This is why suppliers "normally" go bust in the winter.

    The second problem is hedging. It's a good idea and everyone should do it, but how does it work? You can't hedge individual supplies, the volumes are too small, and how many do you hedge. Do you hedge all the customers you have now? Or all the customers you think you'll have in a month or two? The next issue is how much to hedge - will it be a cold winter or mild? If its cold, when? A bad November means different hedging to a bad December. Hedging is also expensive and energy margins are low.

    The third problem is the price cap, this is in theory a good idea, but if the government keeps raising the tax element and cannot control the commodity prices then how does a non responsive cap work? Domestic energy prices are currently loss making for all suppliers. This isn't sustainable and something has to give. If the government keeps the price cap at current levels more suppliers will fail, the cost of failure is passed on to existing suppliers, so therefore fail and so on.

    Gas can be stored allowing suppliers to buy in the summer when it's cheap and less in the winter when the prices rise. Except that the UK closed most of it's storage and now only has enough for around 10 days of usage.

    Wholesale gas prices are driven by global demand, the economies of SE Asia are recovering and buying more gas, driving up the price of LNG shipments.

    The Russian built a new pipeline to deliver gas to Europe, its finished, but isn't pumping gas and the German's haven't approved it yet. This could take months to get approved.

    The Russian's could ship more gas via Ukraine, but they don't want to pay the Ukrainian government.

    We get a lot of gas from Norway, but less than usual because maintenance was reduced last year due to Covid. That maintenance is happening now.

    We have our own gas supplies, but we did do enough maintenance either.

    And we've had the wrong kind of wind for the few months. It should be much windier, producing much more power, but a lot of turbines are not running at all.

    The weather affects Europe as well, which we import power from, so when they have problems, we have problems and vice versa.

    Finally, there was a fire which damaged the largest electricity connection we have to France, and that won't be repaired for months.

    That has to win an award for the most detailed, clear answer ever on here!
     
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    You can't hedge individual supplies, the volumes are too small, and how many do you hedge.
    The best hedge is storage.

    Imagine if private companies were to act like that! Instead of ordering several cubic meters of heating oil, we got a few liters every week - ten days supply!

    if the government keeps raising the tax element and cannot control the commodity prices then how does a non responsive cap work? Domestic energy prices are currently loss making for all suppliers. This isn't sustainable and something has to give. If the government keeps the price cap at current levels more suppliers will fail, the cost of failure is passed on to existing suppliers, so therefore fail and so on.
    I am looking forward to a domino-effect of failure. I was in Germany in the 70s and missed the three-day week, bath with a friend, rubbish on the streets.

    But we saw the news footage and it seemed as if Britain was happiest when it is plunged into darkness and people were shivering around candles! It all looked like the most glorious fun!

    We are prepared! Three pallets of hardwood fire-logs, a few boxes of candles, loads of dry firewood and a log-burning cooking stove. Given this government's magnificent record of failure, it can't take too long!
     
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    UKSBD

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    These taxes increase every year and have been the main driver of price increases for the last few years. These taxes are collected by suppliers and paid to the Government in installments. A big instalment is due each October. This is why suppliers "normally" go bust in the winter.

    Before they go bust, they find ways of extracting any money left that is owed and move everything else into energysupplier2 and just carry on.
     
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    Before they go bust, they find ways of extracting any money left that is owed and move everything else into energysupplier2 and just carry on.

    My energy supplier went bust last year and I didn't suffer any problems or hardships at all. My account was transferred to Scottish Power including my credit balance and they kept me on the same tariff for a while before asking me to choose one of their tariffs or move on. I decided to stay with them as it was easier than going through the switching process again
     
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    I have been caught by one of the companies that went bust last week and received notification the BG has taken over the account - one of the companies I tried to escape from!
     
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    IanSuth

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    I have been with Bulb for a while after a bad experience when a Scottish Power fixed rate deal ended (long story but ombudsman made them pay back difference +£250 so i felt vindicated)

    I actually signed up for a fixed rate deal over the weekend online with Sainsbury (which is just rebadged E-On at same rates but with nectar points) i just hope they stand by the fixed rate as i rightly guessed they wouldnt change the rate over a weekend but might on Monday (you can't get it now)

    Will have to wait and see

    If anyone saw the difference between the old electricity board offices in Reading https://goo.gl/maps/5x4SLbYbwKvkJBWn8 (2012 streetview)

    And the new SSE offices which they even upspecced to add a 4th liftshaft at huge cost
    https://goo.gl/maps/wrr4Q5MEaHn5bNfk9

    you would see where the money is going !!!
     
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    IanSuth

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    Sadly enough I remember this being predicted in the late 80's in my Geography ALevel classes

    At the time we were just starting to wind down Coal, the idea was we would have Nuclear for base load, coal for seasonal fluctuation, Hydro pump storage for daily load balancing and more and more Gas stations that were easily "switch off and onable" but the disadvantage of Gas power generation was already by then it was obvious we would not be able to produce enough ourselves as North sea reserves dwindled and Gas power ramped up and so would have to import which put us at risk of fluctuations in exchange rates, world markets and physical infrastructure/war. So at the time there was a strategic gas reserve held by BG (think it went to Transco upon privatisation) where they stored gas in a depleted oil field and some salt caverns

    I heard this week we have no storage reserve any more so I wonder what happened to those schemes
     
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    There is a global issue about the cost of gas. I used to study the issue of gas supply in some detail, but I recognise if the UK uses a lot of LNG the supply acts to some extent like storage.

    As someone who is a qualified Physicist and has worked as an electrical engineer (with my father) I am inclined habitually to overengineer things so I am perhaps more likely to think that keeping Rough was a good idea. However, I think the current problem is really part of a global situation rather than a UK situation and whether or not Rough existed that would be much the same. It may still, however, have been a mistake to close Rough. I have not kept myself sufficiently up to date to have a reliable view.
     
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    OMGVape

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    I wonder how long before the big surviving companies have to increase even fixed tariffs? I started a fixed tariff last month for two years so I'm keeping my head down.

    Whatever tariff contracts say, the likes of BG and Shell won't be allowed to go under.
     
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    IanSuth

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    IanSuth

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    I wonder how long before the big surviving companies have to increase even fixed tariffs? I started a fixed tariff last month for two years so I'm keeping my head down.

    Whatever tariff contracts say, the likes of BG and Shell won't be allowed to go under.

    They can't increase fixed tariffs it is a contract - that is why they are crying. They are stuck having bet the wrong way. Hence why i signed up for one last weekend just before it disappeared from the market
     
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