New Rules: Furlough Scheme to End Next Month but Business no where near ready to open?

[create]

What are businesses supposed to do when the furlough scheme ends next month. We are severly restricted by Covid and still nowhere near a position where we can re-open. Our business relies on social gatherings which we still obviously can't do.

 

[Mr D]

Not open.

 

[create]

Not open.

And how do I pay wages?

 

[fisicx]

And how do I pay wages?

You can’t.

You have had months to plan for this. It been obvious for a long time things were not going to go back the way they were. Did you have a contingency plan?

 

[Mr D]

And how do I pay wages?

The same way you planned to when the furlough was first announced for a short period of time.

You may - if you can afford it - hope for something in the budget in about 2 months. Which may apply from then, may be backdated or may apply from a future date.
Roll a D6, you need a 7.

Ultimately if you cannot afford to pay wages you start redundancy procedures. May have helped if you had started them earlier, would have saved the business money anyway.
Then in the fullness of time make the people redundant.

Can the business remain? If not then its time to make hard decisions as to whether to close the business.
Not a nice decision - never is - but necessary if it cannot be afforded or cannot hold on until it can start making money again.

 

[Mr D]

If the state won't think of us, we rather tell them together or we find some weak points and exploit them, there are no other options.

We had a part of 330 billion in help?
Grants, loans, furlough, discretionary funds - bit late to find some weak points and exploit them.
The Chancellor is who you need and to be fair to the lad he's done far more than anyone expected and far quicker than government help is normally.

If we can't survive now then what price should be paid to keep people employed? £50k per person? £100K? Or what amount?

 

[create]

The same way you planned to when the furlough was first announced for a short period of time.

You may - if you can afford it - hope for something in the budget in about 2 months. Which may apply from then, may be backdated or may apply from a future date.
Roll a D6, you need a 7.

Ultimately if you cannot afford to pay wages you start redundancy procedures. May have helped if you had started them earlier, would have saved the business money anyway.
Then in the fullness of time make the people redundant.

Can the business remain? If not then its time to make hard decisions as to whether to close the business.
Not a nice decision - never is - but necessary if it cannot be afforded or cannot hold on until it can start making money again.

There two employees. Myself and my wife.
If we can't pay ourselves a wage we can't run the business so it would of course need to close.

 

[create]

We had a part of 330 billion in help?
Grants, loans, furlough, discretionary funds - bit late to find some weak points and exploit them.
The Chancellor is who you need and to be fair to the lad he's done far more than anyone expected and far quicker than government help is normally.

If we can't survive now then what price should be paid to keep people employed? £50k per person? £100K? Or what amount?

I saw £10k of that 330 billion and it's almost all gone on paying the landlord while my unit sat empty for the last 6 months. We also got furlough pay which covers the wages we would normally receive however, they couldn't even pay that in full.

Now, through no fault of our own the government are taking the food from our children's plates. They are potentially forcing us into unemployment because they are inept at controlling this stupid infection.
If your business is affected by Covid they should damn well keep supporting you until it can recover.

 

[Mr D]

There two employees. Myself and my wife.
If we can't pay ourselves a wage we can't run the business so it would of course need to close.

Then thats the decision to take.

If limited company the debts of the business remain with the business unless you signed a personal guarantee.
If partnership / sole trader business then any debts belong to you.

 

[create]

Then thats the decision to take.

If limited company the debts of the business remain with the business unless you signed a personal guarantee.
If partnership / sole trader business then any debts belong to you.

And that's that?

5 flaming years we have worked every bloody day and we are beaten by a poxy virus - or more specifically, beaten by the government that won't allow us to do our job.

 

[Mr D]

I saw £10k of that 330 billion and it's almost all gone on paying the landlord while my unit sat empty for the last 6 months. We also got furlough pay which covers the wages we would normally receive however, they couldn't even pay that in full.

Now, through no fault of our own the government are taking the food from our children's plates. They are potentially forcing us into unemployment because they are inept at controlling this stupid infection.
If your business is affected by Covid they should damn well keep supporting you until it can recover.

There is no guarantee that we will ever get back to the normal we had last year. If government removed all restrictions tomorrow you probably wouldn't get 100% of the customers who would normally do whatever doing the same as before.

Too many need to shield, need to isolate to protect someone, don't want to catch the virus, cannot afford time off sick or whatever. They won't go back to normal until its safe - and it sure isn't safe just now. May not be safe until next year or much later.


The furlough pay was never intended to pay wages in full. Employers could top that up - you chose not to for whatever reason then thats up to you.

Its very unlikely that the furlough scheme will be extended as it is. But not impossible that particular areas of the economy / business types / localised areas will get some help of some sort in the budget. Slim, perhaps very slim, but not impossible.

Your other options appear to be the BBL loan scheme or the somewhat bigger and more involved Covid loan scheme. If you can risk a loan and there's funds available.

 

[Mr D]

And that's that?

5 flaming years we have worked every bloody day and we are beaten by a poxy virus - or more specifically, beaten by the government that won't allow us to do our job.

Blame who you want. Government would have had a lot more blame if they didn't take some action earlier in the year. Dead customers also don't spend money.

Some ended up with zero help available to them. Not even the £10k you got - and not even furlough pay.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I saw £10k of that 330 billion and it's almost all gone on paying the landlord while my unit sat empty for the last 6 months. We also got furlough pay which covers the wages we would normally receive however, they couldn't even pay that in full.

Now, through no fault of our own the government are taking the food from our children's plates. They are potentially forcing us into unemployment because they are inept at controlling this stupid infection.
If your business is affected by Covid they should damn well keep supporting you until it can recover.

The government are not taking food from your plate.

The last 6 months they've put food on your plate.

And you've wasted 6 months hoping Covid would just go away.

IMO

 

[AllUpHere]

What exactly have you been doing for the last 6 months?

 

[Darren_Ssc]

What exactly have you been doing for the last 6 months?

Moaning.

 

[AllUpHere]

Moaning.

Thanks, that made me laugh. It's so true though isn't it.

 

[fisicx]

And that's that?

5 flaming years we have worked every bloody day and we are beaten by a poxy virus - or more specifically, beaten by the government that won't allow us to do our job.

I ask again, did you have a contingency plan?

What would do if you lost your driving license, had a debilitating illness, house burnt down, people stopped wanting what you provide?

You knew you wouldn’t be able to trade months ago. Why didn’t you adapt the business?

 

[Alison Moore]

The government can't keep paying everyone's wages forever. Unfortunately there will be some business sectors that don't recover for a very long time, so all the staff in those sectors will have to be laid off.

 

[create]

The government are not taking food from your plate.

The last 6 months they've put food on your plate.

And you've wasted 6 months hoping Covid would just go away.

IMO

I haven't wasted 6 months hoping it would go away. I was one of the first locally to recognise the threat, way back in January. I have tried to adapt the business the best way I can. We have added cleaning stations, limited access to 50% capacity, added safe distancing measures, implemented trace and track and much more. The problem is that our business is a social business (think nightclub or party venue) which makes it very difficult to continue if you are limited to 6 friends in the same place at the same time.

What exactly have you been doing for the last 6 months?

See above. We are still open but our current turnover is less than 1/10 of what it should be. Mainly due to not being able to host parties.

Moaning.

Piss off

Thanks, that made me laugh. It's so true though isn't it.

You can piss off too.

I ask again, did you have a contingency plan?

What would do if you lost your driving license, had a debilitating illness, house burnt down, people stopped wanting what you provide?

You knew you wouldn’t be able to trade months ago. Why didn’t you adapt the business?

Get the bus, insurance? insurance? No idea and it's a stupid question. Why would people suddenly stop wanting what we provide? Our little company has a lot of loyal fans that come because they like what we do and how we do it.

The government can't keep paying everyone's wages forever. Unfortunately, there will be some business sectors that don't recover for a very long time, so all the staff in those sectors will have to be laid off.

I get this totally and this is the essence of the problem. Money.
Some businesses manage to recover. I went to a restaurant the other day and they were busy. In fact it was like post covid. No one wore a mask to go in, no one wore a mask walking around. No one wore a mask at all. The only thing they asked was trace and track.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

Piss off

I have a bit more respect for you now.

 

[Interestedobserver]

The government can't keep paying everyone's wages forever. Unfortunately there will be some business sectors that don't recover for a very long time, so all the staff in those sectors will have to be laid off.

The Government at least realise this now. Lot of talk about people having to retrain to learn new jobs after furlough ends

 

[Interestedobserver]

I haven't wasted 6 months hoping it would go away. I was one of the first locally to recognise the threat, way back in January. I have tried to adapt the business the best way I can. We have added cleaning stations, limited access to 50% capacity, added safe distancing measures, implemented trace and track and much more. The problem is that our business is a social business (think nightclub or party venue) which makes it very difficult to continue if you are limited to 6 friends in the same place at the same time.



See above. We are still open but our current turnover is less than 1/10 of what it should be. Mainly due to not being able to host parties.


Piss off


You can piss off too.



Get the bus, insurance? insurance? No idea and it's a stupid question. Why would people suddenly stop wanting what we provide? Our little company has a lot of loyal fans that come because they like what we do and how we do it.



I get this totally and this is the essence of the problem. Money.
Some businesses manage to recover. I went to a restaurant the other day and they were busy. In fact it was like post covid. No one wore a mask to go in, no one wore a mask walking around. No one wore a mask at all. The only thing they asked was trace and track.

The things you have done are based around your assumption that your business and industry would come back to normal

You have to realise that for several years many business and industries just won't be financially viable under social distancing

It's not just about what social distance rules allow customers to do. It's about what customers will choose to do as well

You can't polish a turd so to speak.

And that's no disrespect. I was in the same boat as you but realised early on the future for my industry was bleak.

Screens and new working practises weren't going to be the solution

 

[fisicx]

Get the bus, insurance? insurance? No idea and it's a stupid question. Why would people suddenly stop wanting what we provide? Our little company has a lot of loyal fans that come because they like what we do and how we do it.

So has your business interruption insurance paid out?

I am sorry that your business can't survive but you are no different to thousands of others. What exactly do you want? More money? A change in the rules? Either of those are going to need you to start canvassing support, writing to your MP, getting your industry body involved and so on.

The problem is most people are complacent and whinge a lot but don't do anything. You have to get involved in politics if you want change.

 

[Interestedobserver]

So has your business interruption insurance paid out?

I am sorry that your business can't survive but you are no different to thousands of others. What exactly do you want? More money? A change in the rules? Either of those are going to need you to start canvassing support, writing to your MP, getting your industry body involved and so on.

The problem is most people are complacent and whinge a lot but don't do anything. You have to get involved in politics if you want change.

You do advise a lot of people on here to write to their MP?

That's as likely to help them improve their situation as waiting for Covid to go away.

IMO

People should put their energy into adapting what they do and creating new income and new leisure and family pursuits that can work and they can enjoy despite social distancing

Far more likely to help them than their MP or getting into politics right now

Take action and control themselves

Certainly dont rely on others to help them

Those others have enough problems of their own to deal with already

MPs are being hit from all sides being asked for help

 

[fisicx]

You do advise a lot of people on here to write to their MP?

Yes, because unless you do petition government nothing is going to change. It might not just be writing, it could be attending a surgery, organise a rally, collecting signatures and so on. If your MP doesn't respond there are ways to fix this.

An organisation I'm involved in has done just this and had some really good results. It now means we can carry on almost the way we used to.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Yes, because unless you do petition government nothing is going to change. It might not just be writing, it could be attending a surgery, organise a rally, collecting signatures and so on. If your MP doesn't respond there are ways to fix this.

An organisation I'm involved in has done just this and had some really good results. It now means we can carry on almost the way we used to.

So many industries and individuals need support during covid I cannot imagine where MPs can even start to help

Me personally I would prefer to do something about my situation personally than asking someone to help me, joining an incredibly long queue and waiting for them to act for me

To me it's similar to just complaining about a situation rather than doing something about a situation

 

[Darren_Ssc]

The things you have done are based around your assumption that your business and industry would come back to normal..

And that's no disrespect. I was in the same boat as you but realised early on the future for my industry was bleak

Back in April this guy asked if he should shut up shop?
https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/small-play-centre-for-kids-should-i-just-close.405286/

Here we are in September and the replies are still as valid.

 

[MBE2017]

I have some sympathy OP, but the Gov has helped you, with wages and loans/grants. There are also plenty who did not get a penny. I think you need to decide whether you continue or not.

If you decide to close, you either get a job, go on limited benefits, or brush yourself down and start something new. It might not be fair, but loads will be even worse off shortly.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Back in April this guy asked if he should shut up shop?
https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/small-play-centre-for-kids-should-i-just-close.405286/

Here we are in September and the replies are still as valid.

So many business owners are walking around with their heads in the sand it's untrue

I've found that really surprising the last few months

The amount of shrewd people (or at least you think they are normally shrewd) who just think everything will just get back to normal and they just need to wait for it to happen

And expect to be looked after until it does

 

[Stas Lawicki]

There are literally millions who've not had a penny from the gov. No grants, furlough, loans etc - nothing. I would consider that your staff getting furlough payments makes them extremely fortunate but like others have said, we all knew the music would stop at some point - what has been done to prepare? Millions didn't have a furlough or grant period to prepare for no income and no work.

I said right at the beginning that companies falling over within weeks of lockdown weren't viable. I think I also said that furlough would simply prolong the inevitable for many. I am a realitve numpty but this was very easy to see.

It's tough but as @fisicx keeps asking, where was the contingency?!

I've not had a penny in support and only just started trading again. I'm not wealthy or clever, I just decided that as a bus owner I could only depend on myself and retained as many earnings as I could in my business and slashed my overheads.

I don't agree furlough should be extended. Some ppl and cos have done extremely well from benefits this gov have thrown around. As ppl keep telling me 'there are always winners and losers'. It's harsh but that's life. Nobody ever said the world should be fair.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Furlough isn't going to be extended

The chancellor has said that people need to start realising their current jobs may not be jobs in the future

And he needs to find new ways to support them accordingly

 

[UKSBD]

One of the problems is "how to leave a job"

You have employers who have too many staff but can't afford to reduce them

You have employees who want to leave a job but won't just leave as they will then lose redundancy and not be able to claim benefits.

Voluntary redundancy needs simplifying and anyone taking voluntary redundancy shouldn't be penalised by benefits system.

By doing that the business has more chance of survival, the people who want to stay in work have more chance of retaining their jobs, the people who want to leave can, rather than staying and waiting to be made redundant (which may lead to people who don't want to be being made redundant before them).

 

[Paul Norman]

And that's that?

5 flaming years we have worked every bloody day and we are beaten by a poxy virus - or more specifically, beaten by the government that won't allow us to do our job.

Sadly, yes. That is that.

It is likely to be some time - maybe 6 months, maybe longer - before that kind of business becomes viable.

If it is just the two of you, you might be able to start up again then.

In the mean time, you need to close or mothball the business and seek some way of earning a living.

Look - it's tough. And at the moment it is extra tough. But life throws these things at us all sometimes, and there is not going to be bags of money turning up to help us.

We are most of us business people in here, many of us have built up businesses and understand the hard work, and understand your question. But we are also not going to lie to you.

It is, just that.

 

[Scottishgifts4u]

I was a one man business that depended on my fitness/health and a driving licence.

If I had lost any of those I would have been 'screwed'. No income..nothing.

Fortunately that never happened but if it had I'd just have had to make the best of it. Signed on, found any kind of job to bring some money in, anything.

However I always made sure I could survive on as little as possible if the worst happened. I was fortunate enough to pay my mortgage off early, no flash car, no loans, no big expenditures each month.

As has been said you can blame Covid 19 and the government all you like but at the end of the day these things happen and if you work for yourself you need to have a plan B.

 

[MBE2017]

Had a friend on a telephone call the other day, his 22yr old daughter in London with a decent degree, decided to take a receptionist job until something in her field becomes available. She was rejected instantly via email, when she inquired why, the company explained they had received over 1000 applications for this single job.

Been through a couple of bad recessions in my lifetime, this could be the worst yet. In my area, I have been told 60%+ employed self employed are now in delivery jobs, like Amazon flex. Welcome to the new reality, it’s likely to be a tough few years ahead.

No time for regrets, blame etc, this is the time to start fighting harder than the rest.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Get real you know you don't have a business and have known for many months, you just refuse to look at facts and feel happy to blame the world

You have had months to recognise that life has changed and you could have spent all that time moving on

Fold the company and start again doing whatever you can

 

[Interestedobserver]

This thread shows exactly why furlough has to stop

I spoke to the owners of a multi million pound turnover business a couple of months ago

I asked them if they had made a cash flow plan to see how long they could survive Covid (they are reliant on the hospitality and events industry operating as normal and have virtually zero income right now)

The reply was we started to make one but when furlough was announced we stopped and will wait til end of furlough to have another look!

 

[Interestedobserver]

I haven't wasted 6 months hoping it would go away. I was one of the first locally to recognise the threat, way back in January. I have tried to adapt the business the best way I can. We have added cleaning stations, limited access to 50% capacity, added safe distancing measures, implemented trace and track and much more. The problem is that our business is a social business (think nightclub or party venue) which makes it very difficult to continue if you are limited to 6 friends in the same place at the same time.



See above. We are still open but our current turnover is less than 1/10 of what it should be. Mainly due to not being able to host parties.


Piss off


You can piss off too.



Get the bus, insurance? insurance? No idea and it's a stupid question. Why would people suddenly stop wanting what we provide? Our little company has a lot of loyal fans that come because they like what we do and how we do it.



I get this totally and this is the essence of the problem. Money.
Some businesses manage to recover. I went to a restaurant the other day and they were busy. In fact it was like post covid. No one wore a mask to go in, no one wore a mask walking around. No one wore a mask at all. The only thing they asked was trace and track.

All the above that was done was based on the hope everything would be back to normal by now

So many people have thought and assumed the same

Very naive IMO

You have to take things into your own hands and have a Plan B and a Plan C

You only had to follow the news etc and do a bit of research to know the illness isn't just going away and as someone said above some industries (including this one) just aren't viable whilst we have to social distance

 

[Paul Norman]

Let's all, in business, get two things clear in our heads, and ensure we have planned accordingly.

1. This uncertainty, this switching lockdowns on and off, some level of restrictions which massively impact on some businesses, this is not going to end by Christmas. I am referring to Christmas 2023, because 2020 is not really going to happen.

2. The ability of the government to throw money into our hats expired some time ago. The willingness to get into more debt to do so, for popularity reasons, will also expire soon.

 

[Mr D]

Let's all, in business, get two things clear in our heads, and ensure we have planned accordingly.

1. This uncertainty, this switching lockdowns on and off, some level of restrictions which massively impact on some businesses, this is not going to end by Christmas. I am referring to Christmas 2023, because 2020 is not really going to happen.

2. The ability of the government to throw money into our hats expired some time ago. The willingness to get into more debt to do so, for popularity reasons, will also expire soon.

Some of us are planning Christmas 2020 on what we normally do. Doesn't need all the trappings, some stuff can be delayed even - the other Christmas date is in January.
Plus the research that indicates higher spending per person - we've already seen evidence of that so far this year.