Free work in the form of a "pitch"

[billybob99]

Got an in-depth email from a potential client this morning. It stated their requirements and their budget, £75K.

First thing I did was check them out, they're legit, been around since 2001, £11M+ in the bank, all above board.

So I entertained the email, we had a back and forth.

Then this person said, "The board of directors have approved this project and provided a budget, but it is dependant on them seeing a presentation, so they can understand what they're actually spending money on".

I was baffled, because I've never had someone ask this, ever, during 10+ years in business.

I asked for clarity and this person said, "The board of directors require a presentation of what the software will look like, i.e. mockups, conceptual designs, frontend and backend".

"A basic design needs to be created before any contracts are signed".

"I should also stress the contract would only be signed post pitch, should the board of directors like the proposal."

What they're asking for is at least a few days work.

It's pretty strange a well established company, with a decent budget, doesn't want to spend any of it on the prep work.

Do you just tell them to jog on, or try to convince them to follow the process and pay for it.

 

[STDFR33]

What if they like your designs and then find someone cheaper to implement them?

 

[billybob99]

What if they like your designs and then find someone cheaper to implement them?

Not only that - but what are the chances of a client liking the first draft of a design, the colours, the branding.

You usually have to go thru a few phases.

I'm sure they've just emailed everyone with the same story.

When its free, they seem to take the p!$$ - when they're paying for it, they seem to get to the point.

 

[MikeJ]

A couple of day's work for a £75k project seems ok to me.

When I had a proper job, we used to put bids out that took 6 months. A three month technical proposal, meeting at the client's office, then another three months to put together a commercial proposal with another meeting at the client. We'd also do at least two site visits. There were typically 3-5 companies bidding. These were multi million pound projects, but our cost/bid ratio was probably similar.

 

[billybob99]

A couple of day's work for a £75k project seems ok to me.

When I had a proper job, we used to put bids out that took 6 months. A three month technical proposal, meeting at the client's office, then another three months to put together a commercial proposal with another meeting at the client. We'd also do at least two site visits. There were typically 3-5 companies bidding. These were multi million pound projects, but our cost/bid ratio was probably similar.

When I have done this, its always been an official tender, i.e. the gov.uk contracts website - and no issues with that as you know its a tender and what it involves.

This just seems strange for many reasons, one of them being, they want to design something they haven't/aren't prepared to scope out.

It's a waste of 2 days regardless.

A bit like trying to build a house without an architect, and calling the builders in straight away.

 

[Mr D]

What they're asking for is at least a few days work.

It's pretty strange a well established company, with a decent budget, doesn't want to spend any of it on the prep work.

Do you just tell them to jog on, or try to convince them to follow the process and pay for it.

A few days work for maybe a £75k deal?
Sounds good.

No reason for you to do it if you don't want, you just won't be in the running to get the work.
Or future work.

Have done presentations with similar prep work simply for a job interview. You are being asked to do it for a chunk of money.

Turn it around - if you want to spend £75k on a project, would you not want the business that wants your money to give you some idea of how they plan to do things?

 

[Mr D]

When I have done this, its always been an official tender, i.e. the gov.uk contracts website - and no issues with that as you know its a tender and what it involves.

This just seems strange for many reasons, one of them being, they want to design something they haven't/aren't prepared to scope out.

It's a waste of 2 days regardless.

A bit like trying to build a house without an architect, and calling the builders in straight away.

Usually when doing tenders I have spent more than a few days on it for a smaller overall sum.
And won.

 

[estwig]

I won't even go and see someone unless they pay a 50% deposit upfront, cut my lawn and cook me a roast dinner.

Tell 'em to jog on!

 

[billybob99]

After finding this - I reworded a few points and kindly declined.

I got a message saying, "I completely understand your point of view and agree with it. This is one of the reasons I'm finding this search rather frustrating as well".

Probably a sign that nobody is going to do it for free.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

This was quite common with the photography assignments I used to do.

The alternative was what was called a day or two on experimentals. That meant we would charge full wack for trying different approaches.

 

[billybob99]

Turn it around - if you want to spend £75k on a project, would you not want the business that wants your money to give you some idea of how they plan to do things?

I would yes.

But I'd be prepared to pay a designer for 2-3 different concepts. I may shortlist 4-5 designers and get them to design 2-3 concepts each, pay them all - then choose to work with one long term.

Just how you pay an architect to draw up some plans.

 

[The Byre]

1. It is up to the CUSTOMER to come up with the overall concept. If there is one complaint I get to hear from SW and web designers, it's customers that don't know what the F they want!

2. If the customer really has the money for a project, they have the money for two days of design work. Of course, if they don't have the money, then F 'em!

3. As a producer friend of mine once said "I lose all sympathy for a man when I discover that he has no money!"

 

[DavidWH]

At least it's a reasonable job, we get asked to see ideas, for a £200 van.

We too decline it. What's your budget? Or here's your price. If your happy with it, pay the deposit.

If they're not sure about us, they're more than welcome to look at our portfolio, ring some existing customers... or sod off and be someone elses problem.

 

[Mr D]

1. It is up to the CUSTOMER to come up with the overall concept. If there is one complaint I get to hear from SW and web designers, it's customers that don't know what the F they want!

2. If the customer really has the money for a project, they have the money for two days of design work. Of course, if they don't have the money, then F 'em!

3. As a producer friend of mine once said "I lose all sympathy for a man when I discover that he has no money!"

Why pay for ideas when you can get someone to come up with ideas for free?
Same ideas either way.

 

[Mark T Jones]

My immediate suspicion would be that your contact doesn’t have the authority to sign it off and is effectively using you to sell the project to the board

I’d probably ask to be able to present the concept to the board - or suggest paid consultancy to get it to that level

 

[billybob99]

My immediate suspicion would be that your contact doesn’t have the authority to sign it off and is effectively using you to sell the project to the board

This sounds about right.

I’d probably ask to be able to present the concept to the board - or suggest paid consultancy to get it to that level

I did ask for a brief and was provided with a somewhat vague document (for a 6 month project) - looks like it was created for free by another agency.

I've already implied that there are no freebies, you'll have to start with paid consultancy.

 

[Mr D]

My immediate suspicion would be that your contact doesn’t have the authority to sign it off and is effectively using you to sell the project to the board

I’d probably ask to be able to present the concept to the board - or suggest paid consultancy to get it to that level

A number of job interviews like that too.
Except not to the board of directors - presenting to the interviewers.
10 minute presentation, 30 to 50 minute question and answer session....

 

[billybob99]

A number of job interviews like that too.
Except not to the board of directors - presenting to the interviewers.
10 minute presentation, 30 to 50 minute question and answer session....

The only difference is the people applying to the job, want/need that job.

A potential client contacting a supplier saying we'd like to work with you, if you can provide us XYZ for free might work for freelancers or one man bands.

As already mentioned, asking for freebies usually implies lack of funds or lack or authority.

 

[The Byre]

asking for freebies usually implies lack of funds or lack or authority.

WRONG!

It screams both these things!

I have been ordering samples of both materials and work last week. I paid for each and every one. Come on! We are talking tiny sums of money here! If you can't afford to spend a few hundred per sample, what chance is there of you being able to blow £75k?

 

[Mr D]

The only difference is the people applying to the job, want/need that job.

A potential client contacting a supplier saying we'd like to work with you, if you can provide us XYZ for free might work for freelancers or one man bands.

As already mentioned, asking for freebies usually implies lack of funds or lack or authority.

Yes its up to you if you want this work.
If you don't then of course no need to do a presentation. Let someone who does want the work do it and get the work.

 

[billybob99]

I have been ordering samples of both materials and work last week. I paid for each and every one. Come on! We are talking tiny sums of money here! If you can't afford to spend a few hundred per sample, what chance is there of you being able to blow £75k?

Hit the nail on the head and drilled it home. Deleted the email, can't be entertaining jokers like that.

 

[DavidWH]

Suppose 10 companies provide some 'free' samples. Only one will win, 9 will loose.

The 9 who lost still have overheads, wages, even the tea and coffee that they drank whilst working on the 'free' proposal.

If it's not the person who they proposed their work to who pays for it, then who does? The next customer who walks through the door and does pay.

Or perhaps even the customer who had a £10k job, who would have paid for the proposal, but got mugged off because they were too busy putting together a proposal on a whim of a £75k job?

 

[billybob99]

Suppose 10 companies provide some 'free' samples. Only one will win, 9 will loose.

The 9 who lost still have overheads, wages, even the tea and coffee that they drank whilst working on the 'free' proposal.

If it's not the person who they proposed their work to who pays for it, then who does? The next customer who walks through the door and does pay.

Or perhaps even the customer who had a £10k job, who would have paid for the proposal, but got mugged off because they were too busy putting together a proposal on a whim of a £75k job?

The problem is you don't ask lawyers to provide you services for free, then if you like what you see, you'll pay for it.

You don't do that in any industry but for some reason, when it comes to creative - it seems like the norm.

Pitches actually cost a lot of time and money, which is better spent on existing clients who are already committed to working with you.

Pitches are a really stupid way of selecting who to work with. There is no value derived for anyone by saying design me a few mockups of this vague idea.

If you win, you'll have to start all over again anyway.

I've never had anyone ask this before, but I have a feeling this won't be the last.

It's an eye opener at least.

 

[billybob99]

Suppose 10 companies provide some 'free' samples. Only one will win, 9 will loose.

After a lost pitch, chances are, the best ideas presented by everyone were all used by the client and the winning agency.

 

[DavidWH]

After a lost pitch, chances are, the best ideas presented by everyone were all used by the client and the winning agency.

Of which they should duly send their invoice for their time, and infringement of their IP. Happened to us before I stuck two fingers up at working for free.

Saw a van we designed in traffic, but we didn't install. Sent them the invoice for our time. After a few emails, they soon paid when I pointed out my previous success at the IPEC, and that it cost an awful lot more than what I was asking

 

[billybob99]

Of which they should duly send their invoice for their time, and infringement of their IP. Happened to us before I stuck two fingers up at working for free.

Saw a van we designed in traffic, but we didn't install. Sent them the invoice for our time. After a few emails, they soon paid when I pointed out my previous success at the IPEC, and that it cost an awful lot more than what I was asking

You're right its just not worth it.

Got a few friends with agencies, in a similar space, who told me, I should go for it and its all part and parcel of getting new clients.

They do it all the time.

I was in two minds but @The Byre pointed out the warning signs.

Why take a punt on an imaginary £75K.

 

[DavidWH]

I recently did a contract for over £10k, and the customer paid 50% upfront before we did a thing... and some people complain they can't get a £50 deposit from a customer.

When we agree a budget with a customer, our next step is get a deposit. If they don't want to pay that, they're shopping around on price... once they've paid, they're a customer and receive our full attention.

 

[Clinton]

The problem is you don't ask lawyers to provide you services for free, then if you like what you see, you'll pay for it.

It's not about lawyers or doctors or any other profession. It's to do with size of deal.

I'm currently trying to place a £20m t/o construction company with the right corporate finance firm / boutique investment bank to sell the business. Whoever my client signs up with will make fees of circa £800K on the successful sale of this business (in addition to the £50K retainer the client pays at the start).

Prospective corporate finance firms will end up spending between 1-5 days preparing their pitch to land this client. During that process they'll be devoting considerable high level input from accountants and tax specialists to look at and crunch the numbers. One bloke flew down from Scotland to London just for a 30 minute meeting with my client before returning to put his proposal together.

Generally speaking, the bigger the deal, the more you need to risk in terms of time and resources to pitch for and win the contract.

When you're dealing with large companies you're dealing with that kind of mindset - the expectation that you'll put yourself out a fair bit to convince them of your candidature.

 

[billybob99]

It's not about lawyers or doctors or any other profession. It's to do with size of deal.

I'm currently trying to place a £20m t/o construction company with the right corporate finance firm / boutique investment bank to sell the business. Whoever my client signs up with will make fees of circa £800K on the successful sale of this business (in addition to the £50K retainer the client pays at the start).

Prospective corporate finance firms will end up spending between 1-5 days preparing their pitch to land this client. During that process they'll be devoting considerable high level input from accountants and tax specialists to look at and crunch the numbers. One bloke flew down from Scotland to London just for a 30 minute meeting with my client before returning to put his proposal together.

Generally speaking, the bigger the deal, the more you need to risk in terms of time and resources to pitch for and win the contract.

Can't argue with any of that Clint - and that is big money, and a different ball game altogether.

This client, represents many actors who we see in films today.

£160M worth of contracts under management and portray an image, you get what you pay for.

So the irony is, they're getting someone to go around trying to get free samples.

I've had clients ask for past work, access to certain source code, if they can talk to previous/current clients, but this is the first I've heard of this freebie stuff in the software dev space.

As Mark pointed out, it seems like its just a way to get some work and then sell the rest of the directors.

 

[DavidWH]

@Clinton I'm not that sure what's actually involved in your kind of transaction, can the seller take away the proposal, all their figures, calculations, everything, and hand them, or part of it to someone else, who hasn't spend the days and expense preparing the pitch?

The difference with creatives, is the client gets to see something, and after the pitch, can take that 'idea' and see who will do it cheaper.

You're paying a lawyer for their advice. Some offer 30minutes free, but they're not going to tell you everything you need to know, so you can walk out the door and do it yourself on MCOL (unless they didn't want the job)

 

[Mr D]

Suppose 10 companies provide some 'free' samples. Only one will win, 9 will loose.

The 9 who lost still have overheads, wages, even the tea and coffee that they drank whilst working on the 'free' proposal.

If it's not the person who they proposed their work to who pays for it, then who does? The next customer who walks through the door and does pay.

Or perhaps even the customer who had a £10k job, who would have paid for the proposal, but got mugged off because they were too busy putting together a proposal on a whim of a £75k job?

You have never done a tender for a contract.
Or an application for funding.

Normal practice to get some contracts including some large contracts is submit a bid.
The bid may take weeks or months and involve dozens of people spending time on it.
And never a certainty.

So all that time spent and no guarantee will get the contract or bid will succeed.

The times it does though.....

May well be specialist staff whose sole job is applying for contracts. How much would you spend to get a 10 year half million pound contract when minimum application is 3 bids?
A week or two of a staff member time?

 

[billybob99]

You have never done a tender for a contract.
Or an application for funding.

Normal practice to get some contracts including some large contracts is submit a bid.
The bid may take weeks or months and involve dozens of people spending time on it.
And never a certainty.

So all that time spent and no guarantee will get the contract or bid will succeed.

The times it does though.....

May well be specialist staff whose sole job is applying for contracts. How much would you spend to get a 10 year half million pound contract when minimum application is 3 bids?
A week or two of a staff member time?

If you're tendering for a legit tender then there is usually a process in place, and for every tender, there is always very in-depth requirements.

What is required from you, the type of insurance you need as a business, they want to see last 5 years trading history, what the proposal needs to cover, cut off dates and a ton of other stuff I can't remember.

Then there's someone emailing you saying, there's an opportunity to work together, if you provide a few freebies.

I wouldn't call that a tender.

 

[DavidWH]

You have never done a tender for a contract.
Or an application for funding.

Correct:

1) I know most contracts we won't win, are too large for the size of our company and we can't deliver.

2) We don't have the capacity for some larger contracts, we would find ourselves concentrating on that one contract... so the smaller contracts we current have suffer and leave, then we're reliant on fewer, larger contracts, which increases the risk should they fall through... seen it happen many times with other companies. I'd prefer to spread the risk over many smaller customers/contracts.

3) With the size of our company, it will be myself doing the proposals, and my time is far better spent on other things.

As @billybob99 says, most contracts have PQQ, a full specification, and I can easily make the assessment from those.

Bob the builder wanting his van wrapping, and want's to see something, make loads of amendments and get it all perfect, before parting with his cash, no thanks. Before you know it, it's been passed around every company in Manchester seeing who can do it cheaper. We get it all too often, where someone else has done the the design, and they want a price on it.

The marketing team, who know what they want, what they need, and what their budget & deadlines are yes please, and the price almost becomes a secondary thing.

 

[Mr D]

It's not about lawyers or doctors or any other profession. It's to do with size of deal.

I'm currently trying to place a £20m t/o construction company with the right corporate finance firm / boutique investment bank to sell the business. Whoever my client signs up with will make fees of circa £800K on the successful sale of this business (in addition to the £50K retainer the client pays at the start).

Prospective corporate finance firms will end up spending between 1-5 days preparing their pitch to land this client. During that process they'll be devoting considerable high level input from accountants and tax specialists to look at and crunch the numbers. One bloke flew down from Scotland to London just for a 30 minute meeting with my client before returning to put his proposal together.

Generally speaking, the bigger the deal, the more you need to risk in terms of time and resources to pitch for and win the contract.

When you're dealing with large companies you're dealing with that kind of mindset - the expectation that you'll put yourself out a fair bit to convince them of your candidature.

And for the big deals you pull out all necessary stops.

One of my previous employers bid for a contract over a couple of decades to upgrade and maintain certain exterior aspects of multiple sites.
Company also bid on interior job but that was a much smaller bid for them.
External bid was measured in tens of millions a year revenue. Hundreds of staff involved in the bid process.
And it was not a very big contract. A mere few months to design, write, cost and get signed off by the department head.

Big contracts had major chunk of the company involved at some point and considerable outside support.

 

[Clinton]

@Clinton I'm not that sure what's actually involved in your kind of transaction, can the seller take away the proposal, all their figures, calculations, everything, and hand them, or part of it to someone else, who hasn't spend the days and expense preparing the pitch?

Yes. Except that nobody worth his salt is going to use stuff prepared by somebody else! These are FCA regulated firms with expensive in-house expertise. They are not going to rely on someone else's calculations!

My clients tend to always benefit from these pitches. The client learns something about buyer profiling, about how to disclose information to best strategic effect, about the likelihood of getting HMRC advance clearance on their large bank balance (as they invariably want ER on it) etc etc. Clients also ask a lot of questions (I have a long list I supply to my clients) and the bidders answer those questions for them.

Is that fair on the firms pitching? I don't know. But not all of them can win the client, only one can. The others have contributed something of value for which they get no return.

 

[DavidWH]

Yes. Except that nobody worth his salt is going to use stuff prepared by somebody else! These are FCA regulated firms with expensive in-house expertise. They are not going to rely on someone else's calculations!

We're unregulated, and it's like the wildwest... you can use photo's from google images, facebook, instagram, pintrest, you can use someone elses logo and just change the name, and even get an entire design done and pass it your mate to copy.

Of course it's not that easy, look at the posts on here about Getty images, more people need to protect their IP, and stop undervaluing it by giving it away.

 

[billybob99]

Before you know it, it's been passed around every company in Manchester seeing who can do it cheaper. We get it all too often, where someone else has done the the design, and they want a price on it.

This sounds familiar.

After designing some wireframes for a potential client, we didn't hear back from them again when it came to starting the actual design and development (assuming the proposal was too much).

We got our own wireframe emailed back to us, from another agency up north - asking for a quote and timescales to build.

 

[DavidWH]

We got our own wireframe emailed back to us, from another agency up north - asking for a quote and timescales to build.

@billybob99 I can top that, sent a proof to a customer, again never heard anything back.

Months later, I get an e-mail from the same customer, asking if we're able to produce the attached design, and how much it would be.

"Of course we can produce the attached design as it appears to be identical to the one we submitted back in April, although with our watermark, branding and copyright notice removed. Our quotation is attached now including the artwork charges."

Since then we've changed tact. You can come in and sit down with us, for free. Nothing leaves the premises until we're paid a deposit. Or you pay a deposit over the phone, and we'll do it by email.

 

[Mr D]

Correct:

1) I know most contracts we won't win, are too large for the size of our company and we can't deliver.

2) We don't have the capacity for some larger contracts, we would find ourselves concentrating on that one contract... so the smaller contracts we current have suffer and leave, then we're reliant on fewer, larger contracts, which increases the risk should they fall through... seen it happen many times with other companies. I'd prefer to spread the risk over many smaller customers/contracts.

3) With the size of our company, it will be myself doing the proposals, and my time is far better spent on other things.

As @billybob99 says, most contracts have PQQ, a full specification, and I can easily make the assessment from those.

Bob the builder wanting his van wrapping, and want's to see something, make loads of amendments and get it all perfect, before parting with his cash, no thanks. Before you know it, it's been passed around every company in Manchester seeing who can do it cheaper. We get it all too often, where someone else has done the the design, and they want a price on it.

The marketing team, who know what they want, what they need, and what their budget & deadlines are yes please, and the price almost becomes a secondary thing.

Not uncommon in business for a company to bid on a contract then expand to do it once awarded it.
There can be good money in contracts. Depends how bad the writer of the tender doc is.
Had a council one once, the winning bid had front loaded costs into pricing such that if any two days required the service in a row then additional temp staff could be hired.
That winter had 11 days in a row that used the service but staff were available to man it. The organisation made over 30 grand profit in that period. A later 3 day period of use saw just 500 profit.

Not all bids succeed. And some that get offered get zero bids that qualify. Wrong time, wrong area maybe.

Nothing wrong with contracts. Though there can be done bad ones - you may have heard of companies handing back running of a facility to the council as uneconomical. Or where company goes insolvent and government has to pick up the pieces that were contracted out, of course costing government more money to run.

 

[DavidWH]

When I was in the Navy, they were rebuilding the accommodation at Faslane. The centre piece was the 'super mess', it had bars, dining, and even a bowling alley.

(rumour has it) that the contract didn't include the pins or balls for the alleys, so it never opened whilst I was there, must find out if it ever did.