Half-day holiday

[benriley]

Hello,

I am trying to clarify what actual times consist of a half-day's holiday. Our staff work 0900 to 1700 with a half-hour paid lunch.

I am receiving conflicting advice about when they book a half-day's holiday for the afternoon whether they leave work at 1245 or 1300.

I would just like this clarifying then I can document this then everybody at work knows where they stand.

 

[Newchodge]

Divide the hours in half and allow them a 15 minute paid break at the end or beginning of their working day. so they leave after 3.75 hours or work 3.75 hours in the afternoon.

 

[STDFR33]

8 hours paid. Half of 8 is 4. 4 hours would take you to 1pm.

 

[Newchodge]

8 hours paid. Half of 8 is 4. 4 hours would take you to 1pm.

But 15 minutes of that is not worked, so the working time is 3 hours 45 minutes.

If you add it together - assume they take 1 afternoon off and the next morning. They will have worked 7 hours 30 minutes over the 2 days, which is their normal working day.

 

[Mr D]

But 15 minutes of that is not worked, so the working time is 3 hours 45 minutes.

If you add it together - assume they take 1 afternoon off and the next morning. They will have worked 7 hours 30 minutes over the 2 days, which is their normal working day.

If not taking lunch would they still be paid for half of it?

 

[Newchodge]

If not taking lunch would they still be paid for half of it?

If they work 2 half days @ 4 hours each, they will have worked half an hour longer than on a day when they did not take a half day off. Which is neither just nor equitable.

 

[Mr D]

If they work 2 half days @ 4 hours each, they will have worked half an hour longer than on a day when they did not take a half day off. Which is neither just nor equitable.

And if they don't work the 4 hours are they being paid for 4 hours or 3.75 hours?
Being paid less is just and equitable too? After all, that's being paid what you want them to have worked!

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I'm in favour of 1pm. They're entitled to a break (paid in this job) if they work more than 6 hours, but not for working 4 hours. The working hours are 8 hours, and a half-day is 4 hours.


Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

I'm in favour of 1pm. They're entitled to a break (paid in this job) if they work more than 6 hours, but not for working 4 hours. The working hours are 8 hours, and a half-day is 4 hours.


Karl Limpert

They have a statutory entitlement to a break after 6 hours. They have a contractual entitlement to a break after 3.75 hours.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

They have a statutory entitlement to a break after 6 hours. They have a contractual entitlement to a break after 3.75 hours.

Do they have that contractual entitlement, Cyndy? Based on what?


Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

Do they have that contractual entitlement, Cyndy? Based on what?


Karl Limpert

Based on the fact that it is paid. The statutory minimum entitlement is to unpaid leave, in that, if it is unpaid it meets the statutory requirement. the fact that it is paid makes it contractual. In my view.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Based on the fact that it is paid. The statutory minimum entitlement is to unpaid leave, in that, if it is unpaid it meets the statutory requirement. the fact that it is paid makes it contractual. In my view.

Why do we use this type of language in the UK? statutory minimum entitlement is to unpaid leave. Is this really how other countries in Europe behave? In my limited experience it is only the USA and far eastern countries that are so rigid about working hours.

 

[Newchodge]

Why do we use this type of language in the UK? statutory minimum entitlement is to unpaid leave. Is this really how other countries in Europe behave? In my limited experience it is only the USA and far eastern countries that are so rigid about working hours.

It is because the UK has an appalling record on workers' rights, so legislation is needed to ensure basic minima are enforce.

 

[ComPropSolicitor]

sometimes what the law says and what is maybe morally right are two different things. Personally, I would let them go at 12.30 or 12.45. I think that you should consider a half day as a rare event and needs to be thought of in terms of the wider working week. if they usually go for lunch at 12.30 then let them leave at that time. there's nothing to be gained by being strict on stuff like this you will just make them hate working for you for the sake of 30 minutes. If they are decent employees that are worth keeping then you will more then get the time back.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Based on the fact that it is paid. The statutory minimum entitlement is to unpaid leave, in that, if it is unpaid it meets the statutory requirement. the fact that it is paid makes it contractual. In my view.

I don’t follow the logic here – contractual, statutory, or whatever, it’s a (paid) break within a long shift; there’s nothing to infer such a break is going to be applied pro rata when someone works a short-shift.

sometimes what the law says and what is maybe morally right are two different things. Personally, I would let them go at 12.30 or 12.45. I think that you should consider a half day as a rare event and needs to be thought of in terms of the wider working week. if they usually go for lunch at 12.30 then let them leave at that time. there's nothing to be gained by being strict on stuff like this you will just make them hate working for you for the sake of 30 minutes. If they are decent employees that are worth keeping then you will more then get the time back.

And it’s getting absurd now. 12:30? Why is a half day a rare event? I’ve known people that used their whole annual leave on half-days. And regardless of when someone takes their lunch break, a half-day is not the same as taking a lunch break (which could just as easily be timed to avoid the queue at the sandwich shop as anything else) - it's the rest of the day off.


What about the part-timer that is contracted to work four hours (the same as half the contracted hours for the full-time staff) – should they actually only work 3 ½ hours a day too?


Half of eight hours is four hours. There is no requirement that we know of (contractual or statutory) that requires a break during a shift of this duration. No reason to provide the break.



Karl Limpert

 

[ComPropSolicitor]

The OP can do what he wishes. My advice is that if you trust people to work hard and they are the right sort of person they will always give more then they get back and little bits like letting them leave for half a day at the time when they would usually go for lunch really make a difference in terms of keeping people happy and increasing worth ethic

I don't know if you employ anyone Mr Limpert? but, I would bet you struggle with people bending over backwards for you.

 

[billybob99]

If you work for this company and they are going around in circles over 15 mins then you need a new job.

If its your company and you're going around in circles over 15 mins, then they need a new job.

Even if it is 1pm, if you let them go at 12:45pm you're bound to have a better work ethic in the long run.

 

[intheTRADE]

sometimes what the law says and what is maybe morally right are two different things. Personally, I would let them go at 12.30 or 12.45. I think that you should consider a half day as a rare event and needs to be thought of in terms of the wider working week. if they usually go for lunch at 12.30 then let them leave at that time. there's nothing to be gained by being strict on stuff like this you will just make them hate working for you for the sake of 30 minutes. If they are decent employees that are worth keeping then you will more then get the time back.

I 100% agree with you.

Sometimes in these situations common sense really does need to prevail. For the sake of arguing over measly 15/30 minutes with risking upsetting the apple cart just let them go at 12:30. As you have said if they are decent employees you will more than get this time back from them.

 

[Mr D]

It is because the UK has an appalling record on workers' rights, so legislation is needed to ensure basic minima are enforce.

So the basic minima is 6 hours to get a break?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The OP can do what he wishes. My advice is that if you trust people to work hard and they are the right sort of person they will always give more then they get back and little bits like letting them leave for half a day at the time when they would usually go for lunch really make a difference in terms of keeping people happy and increasing worth ethic

I wasn’t offering advice on how to trust people – I was answering the question posted with facts, as best I see them.

Hello, I am trying to clarify what actual times consist of a half days holiday. Our staff work 09:00hrs to 17:00 hrs with a half hour paid lunch.

As the thread has digressed from advising on a factual matter to a matter of opinion, from my experience in HR (a year or two…), I find that trust & attitudes of staff vary greatly, with many factors influencing this, including the industry.


What works well for one doesn’t work for all. I’m sure the OP can decide if they want to exercise lenience; whether they think that would be abused; or indeed whether they should the views of the forum on such a matter. That would be better informed once they know where they stand in respect of the question they posted.

I don't know if you employ anyone Mr Limpert? but, I would bet you struggle with people bending over backwards for you.

I have people working for me and I have absolutely no struggles with them doing what I require & expect of them - no problems with my staff at all, and I can't imagine why you would think otherwise.

(I expect one of them is probably sitting at a bar-table about now, tapping away at a laptop, sipping a cold drink, enjoying the Greek beach they often remotely from - they're free to work from wherever.)



Karl Limpert

 

[benriley]

I am the type of person that believes one rule should apply to all rather than have different rules for different people. We are not just talking about 3 employees here. Some people have been leaving at 13:00 hrs and some at 12:45 hrs. Somebody has simply asked what is the correct time to leave and it would be good to be able to document this in the company handbook then it is in black and white for all to see. I will just document it as 12:45 hrs and I think it is best to end the thread here.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I am the type of person that believes one rule should apply to all rather than have different rules for different people.

And have you considered how you will apply the rule to part-time staff? If they're only working 2 or 3 hours a day, will they also get (paid) 15 minutes of their working day?


Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

I don’t follow the logic here – contractual, statutory, or whatever, it’s a (paid) break within a long shift; there’s nothing to infer such a break is going to be applied pro rata when someone works a short-shift.





And it’s getting absurd now. 12:30? Why is a half day a rare event? I’ve known people that used their whole annual leave on half-days. And regardless of when someone takes their lunch break, a half-day is not the same as taking a lunch break (which could just as easily be timed to avoid the queue at the sandwich shop as anything else) - it's the rest of the day off.


What about the part-timer that is contracted to work four hours (the same as half the contracted hours for the full-time staff) – should they actually only work 3 ½ hours a day too?


Half of eight hours is four hours. There is no requirement that we know of (contractual or statutory) that requires a break during a shift of this duration. No reason to provide the break.



Karl Limpert

I suggest that the difficulty comes from the break being paid.
Assume that they are paid £10 per hour. They are paid for 8 hours - 9-5, but only work 7.5 hours. So their daily £80, if divided by the time they are required to work their hourly rate is actually £10.666* per hour. If a part timer works 9-1, 4 hours without a paid break, they receive £40 for 4 hours work, so £10 per hour. That means full timers are paid a higher hourly rate than part-timers, which is illegal.
If the break were unpaid there would be no problem.

 

[Mr D]

I suggest that the difficulty comes from the break being paid.
Assume that they are paid £10 per hour. They are paid for 8 hours - 9-5, but only work 7.5 hours. So their daily £80, if divided by the time they are required to work their hourly rate is actually £10.666* per hour. If a part timer works 9-1, 4 hours without a paid break, they receive £40 for 4 hours work, so £10 per hour. That means full timers are paid a higher hourly rate than part-timers, which is illegal.
If the break were unpaid there would be no problem.

And how exactly do you deal with multiple companies and government departments that can and do pay people different rates for the same job. A new person may start at say £19k full time while someone who has worked there 4 years may be on £22k. Pay progression.
Several big companies I have worked at the part timer with multiple years experience has been on higher hourly rate than new starter full timers.

Or in your world do all people doing a job start at a basic rate then only get annual pay rises of whatever small percentage and they remain on that starting pay for the rest of their working life in the company, only ever getting annual small pay rise and never getting top of their pay scale?

 

[Newchodge]

And how exactly do you deal with multiple companies and government departments that can and do pay people different rates for the same job. A new person may start at say £19k full time while someone who has worked there 4 years may be on £22k. Pay progression.
Several big companies I have worked at the part timer with multiple years experience has been on higher hourly rate than new starter full timers.

Or in your world do all people doing a job start at a basic rate then only get annual pay rises of whatever small percentage and they remain on that starting pay for the rest of their working life in the company, only ever getting annual small pay rise and never getting top of their pay scale?

The law prevents any employer giving part timers worse condiions than full timers.

 

[Mr D]

The law prevents any employer giving part timers worse condiions than full timers.

So you basically ignore any pay progression within a job?
You taking on any of these big state employers?

 

[Newchodge]

So you basically ignore any pay progression within a job?
You taking on any of these big state employers?

The law prevents any employer giving part timers worse condiions than full timers.

 

[Mr D]

The law prevents any employer giving part timers worse condiions than full timers.

So you didn't read my post.
Never mind.

 

[Paul Norman]

The difference between the two options is 15 minutes. 15 whole, actual minutes.

I reckon most of the team here are diligent enough that I don't need to hold them to that 15 minutes. They can go at the earlier time.

If they are not diligent enough, their time on the team is going to end soon. And 15 minutes won't seem that important to them, either.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The difference between the two options is 15 minutes. 15 whole, actual minutes.

Exactly. Only 15 whole, actual minutes.


And while most of the other staff that take a 30 minute break during the 12pm-2pm window, should the part-timer who only works 12-2 also get a paid 30-minute paid-break? It’s only a whole, actual 30 minutes.


And while most of the staff may take their leave in days, for those that always take half-days, and end up working only a whole, actual 840 minutes (or 14 hours) less over a year, it is only 14 whole, actual hours.



Unless the ramifications of the whole, actual 15 minutes are considered in their wider context & the implications that could follow allowing it, it can’t easily be dismissed as only 15 whole, actual minutes.




Karl Limpert

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Reminds me of a vacation job I had as a student at The Potato Marketing Board. A queue began to form by the time clock 30 minutes before 5:00pm. At 4:45 I was the only person still at my desk.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Perhaps in a spirit of compromise we could split the 15 mins?

We could even have a referendum on how it should be split? The result will likely be 52:48 but that as near as dammit splits the 15 mins into 7 mins and 8 mins.

Does the employee get the 8 mins, or the 7 mins. Probably not worth splitting minutes over. Either way they will be able to leave with a deal.