Withhold personal belongings of the former employees who owes money to the company

[Lanacosmo]

Dear All

Our former employee has fraudulently used our company bank card to pay his personal expenses (around £3000).

We have chased the money sending him letters but unsuccessful

Now he has contacted to collect his forgotten bag with his passport inside.

Is it legal to withhold and not allow him to collect his personal belongings until owed amount is fully paid ?

Thanks

 

[Newchodge]

There is a legal concept involved. It is called theft. No of course you can't. Call the police about his fraud and return his property.

 

[Lanacosmo]

There is a legal concept involved. It is called theft. No of course you can't. Call the police about his fraud and return his property.

Thanks Cyndy! I thought so, but can we get police involved ? He has no longer employed by us since 2.09.18 and we only chased the money via emails

 

[Mr D]

Thanks Cyndy! I thought so, but can we get police involved ? He has no longer employed by us since 2.09.18 and we only chased the money via emails

Yes he still did steal money from you didn't he?

Had a CEO once who did as this employee did. Narrowly avoided jail, the company eventually started to get its money back at a couple pounds a week.

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks Cyndy! I thought so, but can we get police involved ? He has no longer employed by us since 2.09.18 and we only chased the money via emails

If you believe he has committed a crime you can get the police involved. Using company money for personal expenses is a crime.

 

[Blaby Loyal]

Law of the jungle applies?

He pays you £3,000 and you give him his passport and his bag.

 

[Newchodge]

Law of the jungle applies?

He pays you £3,000 and you give him his passport and his bag.

We don't live in a jungle.

 

[Blaby Loyal]

But we need to stop being namby pamby snowflakes in situations like this.

He gets his passport back and will then probably disappear overseas or pays the debt back at £1 a month.

 

[Ian J]

Is it legal to withhold and not allow him to collect his personal belongings until owed amount is fully paid ?

Probably not but that's what I'd do anyway

 

[Mr D]

But we need to stop being namby pamby snowflakes in situations like this.

He gets his passport back and will then probably disappear overseas or pays the debt back at £1 a month.

Which would be legal.

I'm very wary of employers keeping hold of passports, too many stories from countries where that is the norm and the slaves cannot leave the country.

 

[estwig]

Be a shame if you couldn't find his bag, afterall he could've left it anywhere.

 

[Newchodge]

But we need to stop being namby pamby snowflakes in situations like this.

Why? We live in a society governed by laws. there are several laws to deal with this situation. Mob rule is not something that any right-thinking person would accept.

 

[Bob Morgan]

The Passport does not belong to either of you, and may not be withheld by anyone!

 

[Mr D]

Why? We live in a society governed by laws. there are several laws to deal with this situation. Mob rule is not something that any right-thinking person would accept.

Sadly mob rule in the UK is accepted. People occupying a company because another company round the corner didn't pay as much tax as the mob thought it should.
People occupying a café because the parent company didn't pay as much tax as the mob thought it should.
Campaigns to get companies to pay extra tax because the mob thinks it should.

Protest march just days after a general election calling for a new government.

There are places in the world where the rule of law applies. Britain is not one of them.

 

[Newchodge]

Sadly mob rule in the UK is accepted. People occupying a company because another company round the corner didn't pay as much tax as the mob thought it should.
People occupying a café because the parent company didn't pay as much tax as the mob thought it should.
Campaigns to get companies to pay extra tax because the mob thinks it should.

Protest march just days after a general election calling for a new government.

There are places in the world where the rule of law applies. Britain is not one of them.

Most of the things you describe are not illegal and so are not mob rule - they are the actions of law abiding citizens. What the posters on here advocate is illegal.

 

[Blaby Loyal]

Please can you quote the exact law or laws you are referring to which would apply here.

It is certainly not theft.

 

[Mr D]

Most of the things you describe are not illegal and so are not mob rule - they are the actions of law abiding citizens. What the posters on here advocate is illegal.

Mob decided the companies were not paying enough tax so mob took direct action to disrupt business of the companies.
Or in the protest march the mob decided the decisions of others by voting didn't count.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mob-rule
noun
the fact or state of large groups of people acting without the consent of the government, authorities, etc

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/mob-rule
a situation in which a crowd of peoplecontrol a placeillegally

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mob_rule
noun
mass noun

• Control of a political situation by those outside the conventional or lawful realm, typically involving violence and intimidation.
  
  ‘the leadership were criticized for giving in to mob rule’
  

 

[Newchodge]

Please can you quote the exact law or laws you are referring to which would apply here.

It is certainly not theft.

Appropriating the property of another with intent to permanently deprive - theft. Or blackmail - demanding money with menaces - give me £3,000 or you will not see your property again.

 

[Ian J]

Appropriating the property of another with intent to permanently deprive - theft. Or blackmail - demanding money with menaces - give me £3,000 or you will not see your property again.

Someone who had "appropriated £3,000 from the OP with intent to permanently deprive" would have a difficult time making a criminal case against the person that he had robbed

 

[Newchodge]

Someone who had "appropriated £3,000 from the OP with intent to permanently deprive" would have a difficult time making a criminal case against the person that he had robbed

They would have no problem whatsoever. In the same way that the OP would have no problem whatsoever. There is also a danger that the courts would see retaliatory crime as more serious than the original crime. That is why my first advice was to report the original crime to the police.

 

[parkingandsecurity]

Appropriating the property of another with intent to permanently deprive - theft. Or blackmail - demanding money with menaces - give me £3,000 or you will not see your property again.

No there is no intention to permenantly deprive. In fact there is the clear opposite. There is a fixed defined period of time for which the property is being retained - Are they also not the unwilling bailiee? They didnt want the bag left there - nor did they agree to it.

 

[Newchodge]

No there is no intention to permenantly deprive.

There is an intention to permanently deprive if payment is not made, Which is why the alternative charge would be blackmail.

Are they also not the unwilling bailiee? They didnt want the bag left there - nor did they agree to it.

So what? They know it is not their property so they have no right to retain it. If they cannot return it to the rightful owner they are required to hand it to the police.

It is absolutely simple. If you find out that someone has burgled your house you know perfectly well that you are not entitled to take their car in retaliation. This is the same.

 

[bovine]

Simply invite the employee to come in to collect their bag and property and at the same time you would like to discuss the repayment of the outstanding monies.

At that time, return that bag and agree a payment plan, in writing. Explain to the employee what legal steps you will take if they do not follow the plan. Then, implement the steps if they do not follow the plan.

 

[fisicx]

Of course you can come and collect your bag. We will serve you the court papers pertaining to your fraudulent transactions at the same time.

 

[obscure]

They would have no problem whatsoever. In the same way that the OP would have no problem whatsoever. There is also a danger that the courts would see retaliatory crime as more serious than the original crime. That is why my first advice was to report the original crime to the police.

+1 to this. It's a straight red card for retaliation.

 

[MBE2017]

Get them to come in, get the police in at the same time to make an arrest, and mention you couldn’t locate his bag. Everyone is happy.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

You have the upper hand but it will be cheaper for him to simply apply for a replacement passport...

 

[Gecko001]

Inform the Police. The Police will no doubt arrange for one of their detectives to be there when the alleged offender picks up their passport.

Maybe I have watched too many detective movies from the past!

It is quite possible that nowadays the Police will not be too interested in this matter going by what you read in the papers.

 

[Blaby Loyal]

Plod won't be interested in investigating this in the slightest. They will use the "it's a civil matter" first and then only pay you lip service if you take it any further.

If the person involved has committed a minor traffic offence or is fighting outside a pub then they'll be there as quick as a flash.

 

[SERC1204]

Plod won't be interested in investigating this in the slightest. They will use the "it's a civil matter" first and then only pay you lip service if you take it any further.

It’s not a civil matter, such as a general debt outstanding, it’s prima facie theft so a criminal matter. At a previous work place we had a similar issue involving a tenth of the amount, the police took it seriously,although what they were able to do was another matter.

 

[lellis]

In the famous words of Mr Justice Arnold at a trial I was at, "Two wrongs don't make a right".

The civil cause of action for both of you is the "tort of conversion". It assimilates to civil theft, but is actually far broader than that. It applies when you deprive someone of their property.

As well as that, you are what is known as a "bailee" of his bag and his passport (like it or not, sorry). You would be/are strictly liable for any loss or damage to his property. The relevant area of law is called bailment.