When did the meaning of "mentor" get so screwed up?

[Clinton]

Don't have a clue as to what you're doing? Solution: Ask for a mentor! After all, there are thousands of experienced business people out there looking desperately for some clueless n00b to take under their wing free of charge.

Too tight to pay for business advice? Solution: Ask for a mentor! Why pay lawyers, accountants and other professionals when a mentor can provide you that same advice for free?

Can't be bothered creating a thread to explain the issue with which you need help? Solution: Ask for a mentor! Mentors will phone you and listen to your explanation over the phone and save you the time you'd spend typing up a long post.

We get so many threads with people asking for mentors. When did "mentor" come to mean a mug who gives quality advice for free? When did clueless people start thinking that the solution to all their problems was not to get clued up but to find a free mentor who'd wave a magic wand?

Is it me or is there a lot of "I wanna mentor" around nowadays? Is "mentor" the latest fashion accessory? In my day (here we go! ) people started businesses and made them successful without the assistance of a signed up mentor. Why do kids nowadays need to have someone holding their hand? Should they even be starting businesses if they are that needy?

 

[GTL]

Maybe a proposed mentoree needs a mentor to tell him or her what mentoring they need.

And it's not just the mentoree who are often 'n00bs'. Quite often it is the mentor. I have met several, and indeed have had the misfortune, to work with some absolute scum - some very well known in their field - who have claimed to be mentors.

It works both ways in my view.

Looking forward to a pleasant response from you......

 

[Scott@KarmaContent]

Great post @Clinton , totally agree. But it gets even worse.

This 'need' for mentors has resulted in a whole new industry of mentors who have no clue about business whatsoever. Some call themselves mentors, others coaches, but in reality it's the blind leading the blind. I've come across a few recently, and they're akin to the MLM fraudsters selling dreams but delivering nothing.

 

[The Byre]

Is "mentor" the latest fashion accessory? In my day (here we go! ) people started businesses and made them successful without the assistance of a signed up mentor. Why do kids nowadays need to have someone holding their hand? Should they even be starting businesses if they are that needy?

It's alright Clinton. Sit down. Breath deeply - and often!

Some call themselves mentors, others coaches, but in reality it's the blind leading the blind.

That reminds me of an old friend of ours. He was the keyboard player for a few name bands, but as he was addicted to various drugs and also an alcoholic ("You know when you are an alcoholic, when you start puking blood!" he told me.) he became a therapist.

So, when that corner shop fails, the knitting shop tanks and the website fails to actually draw its first customer, come to me - and I'll show you how to become a mentor!

Maybe a proposed mentoree needs a mentor to tell him or her what mentoring they need.

Is there no end to the madness?

 

[Alan]

@The Byre your are doing a good job mentoring on how to cope with forum posts asking for mentors.

 

[Mr D]

Great post @Clinton , totally agree. But it gets even worse.

This 'need' for mentors has resulted in a whole new industry of mentors who have no clue about business whatsoever. Some call themselves mentors, others coaches, but in reality it's the blind leading the blind. I've come across a few recently, and they're akin to the MLM fraudsters selling dreams but delivering nothing.

Can we sic those mentors onto the posts asking for a mentor?

 

[StevePoster]

There are lots of false mentors in different industries that are trying to lure some people in needs and in the end you will realize they didn't even know how really it works. True mentors doesn't need to teach and guide you because you will take their path and make your own.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Good post Clinton
I am sensing the membership is becoming rather bad tempered or slightly old person styled snappy this week !
With good reason though We are not just seeing beginners mistakes at the moment People that really should know a lot better are showing they don't actually know what they are doing .

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'm totally on the fence on this one.

The definition of mentor is pretty vague - my interpretation was that a mentor shared the benefit of the breadth of their knowledge (rather than the depth of their knowledge on a specific area), usually for free.

I was a volunteer mentor under the NEA scheme for a few years and in some ways found it very rewards and was very happy to see start ups going out there with some real comprehension of what setting up a business entailed.

I'd far rather see someone asking for support and help than just blundering on blindly

On the other hand, it was very disillusioning to see the mindset emerging that start ups somehow feel they deserve to be given everything for free - I even had one ask me to give them a competitor's business plan to save them writing their own.

 

[Ashley_Price]

I have provided help and advice to people looking for help with either secretarial services, or specifically call answering services.

In my day (here we go! ) people started businesses and made them successful without the assistance of a signed up mentor

But in your young day did those same people read business books, go on courses, learn from their competitors, etc.?

Different people work and learn in different ways. Some don't like reading, etc. (When I go to any exhibition, for example, I much prefer having an audio tour than reading lots of boards filled with text).

Mentors have their place - but that doesn't mean they should give their time or advice for free.

 

[Clinton]

But in your young day did those same people read business books, go on courses, learn from their competitors, etc.?

Yes, they did, they put themselves out. They didn't sit on their backsides waiting for someone to come to them, pat them on the head and take their problems away!

I must admit I do a bit of mentoring. It's for high school kids with behavior / other problems. I don't have an issue with that kind of stuff not paying money. But business advice?! If you need outside professional advice to succeed in business ensure you have the money to pay for that advice rather than begging for a mentor!

It's alright Clinton. Sit down. Breath deeply - and often!

Don't get me started on breathing! These kids manage to achieve the amazing feat of breathing for 365 days in a row and expect to be congratulated for that (and given the day off because it's their b/day!)

 

[Ashley_Price]

But business advice?! If you need outside professional advice to succeed in business ensure you have the money to pay for that advice rather than begging for a mentor!

See the last line of my post.

 

[The Byre]

But in your young day did those same people read business books, go on courses, learn from their competitors, etc.?

Well both I and my wife spent two years in full-time education, learning how to run a business, BEFORE venturing out into the cruel world of running our own dog-n-pony show. That is roughly what I would class as normal behaviour. I'm sure that there were times, especially after a war or major disaster, when just 'having a go' was OK and perfectly good enough.

If you are venturing out into totally virgin territory, a 'have-a-go' attitude, coupled with a big dollop of common sense is possibly OK. That would be the Yukon Gold Rush, the dot-com boom of the 90s, or the first days of rock-n-roll.

Them days is over!

Some don't like reading, etc.

I am sure that there was a stone-age flint knife and spear head maker, who asked others to make the shafts and the string and kept a minimum of finished product and the right amounts of string to bind the flint to the shaft. He and the shaft and string maker worked closely together to make ever better axes, knives, spears and arrows and always sought to find new things to make and kept a close eye on the quality as the work progressed.

So he and his colleagues were lean, just-in-time, outsourcing entrepreneurs, who formed a ‘Keiretsu’ with a clear policy of kaizen and a strategy for innovation, incorporating total quality management. (Fortunately, nobody told them this, or they would have never got anything done!)

Nowadays, we have to be able to read up on this stuff!

 

[Chris Ashdown]

There seemed to be a glut of mentors a few years ago who all came from bank managers, who from my experience of the breed, were very knowledgeable on reading a companies accounts, but had no idea of what's involved in running a small start-up business

 

[Mark T Jones]

There seemed to be a glut of mentors a few years ago who all came from bank managers, who from my experience of the breed, were very knowledgeable on reading a companies accounts, but had no idea of what's involved in running a small start-up business

Unfortunately the Government, in their infinite wisdom, targeted bank managers as advisors for Business Link. Many then went on to believe they were good at it.

Funnily enough that love affair has ended

 

[Mr D]

Unfortunately the Government, in their infinite wisdom, targeted bank managers as advisors for Business Link. Many then went on to believe they were good at it.

Funnily enough that love affair has ended

Some of their advisors were pretty good. Have avoided several mistakes as a result of business link seminars.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Some of their advisors were pretty good. Have avoided several mistakes as a result of business link seminars.

I liked the old style Business Link; though it was very much dependent on the individual advisor. Friends of mine had a 2 hour meeting - advisor went off with a list of follow ups. They never heard from him again

 

[GTL]

A good thread.

I do see a lot, whether a business has a 'mentor' or not, the same old mistakes in start ups, and thus whether a mentor should bother in the first place.

 

[Digimem]

Awful isn't it.

Anyway, Clinton can you become my mentor? Can't pay but I can give you a shout out at my next pub karaoke night.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Well both I and my wife spent two years in full-time education, learning how to run a business, BEFORE venturing out into the cruel world of running our own dog-n-pony show.

My experience took a lot longer. I left school and worked in a darkroom for 18 months, I then went to study photography at art school for 3 years. With that behind me I worked as an assistant for a photographer for 4 years doing everything from sweeping floors to running errands before going freelance.

My mentors who gave me the most were an exchange American professor at art school and the photographer I assisted. When I went freelance I still had a lot to learn and yet anyone who buys a camera thinks that is all that is needed.

 

[barryo]

The fundamental problem is that the distinction between 'mentor'and 'advisor' has become blurred and, for many people, invisible. Therefore, not surprisingly, people say mentor when they mean advisor and vice versa. The two roles require very different skills. A mentor would say "Here are some options you might want to think about." An advisor would say "I recommend this course of action, because...".

True mentoring involves guiding someone towards finding their own solutions. Advice involves sharing knowledge that the advisee didn't previously have.

I think the confusion did start with Business Link, which employed hordes of traditional bank managers who'd been made redundant after being replaced by computer-driven relationship management. Those people used the terms mentoring/advising interchangeably and in my experience had none of the skills required for either role!

Unfortunately we are where we are and the only thing that we who care about it can do is continue banging the drum that Clinton's started for us.

 

[Noah]

I have (had) several informal business "mentors" - they have all been friends or acquaintances who had experience in running their own businesses, or being married to me. This makes it easy to judge the value of their advice; one, whom I made reference to in an earlier post here, later had his business closed down; I had not valued his advice that highly anyway.

 

[Noah]

I liked the old style Business Link; though it was very much dependent on the individual advisor. Friends of mine had a 2 hour meeting - advisor went off with a list of follow ups. They never heard from him again

Agreed - my experience was generally positive. One of the more successful government schemes - disappointng that it closed.

 

[Mr D]

My experience took a lot longer. I left school and worked in a darkroom for 18 months, I then went to study photography at art school for 3 years. With that behind me I worked as an assistant for a photographer for 4 years doing everything from sweeping floors to running errands before going freelance.

My mentors who gave me the most were an exchange American professor at art school and the photographer I assisted. When I went freelance I still had a lot to learn and yet anyone who buys a camera thinks that is all that is needed.

For those of us doing photos just for ourselves buying a camera is all that's needed.
Learning then from experience.

The photographer I booked for my wedding was arrested a day before the event, my cousin stepped in and borrowed a camera, doing a very nice job of the wedding photos.
The video of the wedding was done by a 12 year old, his first use of a video camera.

I dare say either one of them would take time to learn more before ever trying to make money at it.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

my cousin stepped in and borrowed a camera, doing a very nice job of the wedding photos.

Come back and tell me what he needed to learn before charging £4000 for a single photograph for international clients. Consistently.

 

[Mr D]

Come back and tell me what he needed to learn before charging £4000 for a single photograph for international clients. Consistently.

As he is a woodworker I can presume he is not charging anyone for a single photograph.
He did however provide beautiful photographs of a day that can never be repeated. The value of him doing that is priceless.
Which in case you have difficulty is rather more than £4,000.

 

[Alan]

Come back and tell me what he needed to learn before charging £4000 for a single photograph for international clients. Consistently.

That is quite an easy lesson, it's called value based pricing.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Which in case you have difficulty is rather more than £4,000.

You are the one having difficulty understanding that this is a thread about mentoring, not the value of your wedding photographs.

 

[Mr D]

You are the one having difficulty understanding that this is a thread about mentoring, not the value of your wedding photographs.

You were the one who raised the issue of cameras. I gave a concrete example of use. You then raised the issue of value.
A response to your posts apparently triggers an attack mentality.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I am really enjoying this site at the moment
I have to say especially when everybody falls out !

I have noticed we are not allowed to comment any further on the original mentor issue !

Your just a bunch of wolves

 

[Mark T Jones]

I am really enjoying this site at the moment
I have to say especially when everybody falls out !

I have noticed we are not allowed to comment any further on the original mentor issue !

Your just a bunch of wolves

I don't mind a bit of a barney; I do get very uncomfortable when said barney is one-sided

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't mind a bit of a barney; I do get very uncomfortable when said barney is one-sided

Well I am sorry Im always right and your always wrong so I cant see what your complaining about

 

[Clinton]

Great post @Clinton , totally agree. But it gets even worse.

This 'need' for mentors has resulted in a whole new industry of mentors who have no clue about business whatsoever....

The problem is bigger than mentors who have no clue - there are mentors around who are actually better described as predators.

The younger generation, bred as they have been on a diet of "free" - free wifi, free Facebook, free whatever - have come to treat free as benign. And that is their vulnerability.

There are a good few mentors who do it out of the goodness of their hearts or "to give something back" but there are also those using mentoring as an opportunity to take advantage of the naive. They may or may not have the expertise, that's a side show, the issue is finding someone who wants a mentor and convincing them that you know your stuff. You're then in a trusted position to sell them other services and lumber them with expensive contracts or, worse, take a share of their business (and then stop providing value).

 

[Ian J]

I am really enjoying this site at the moment
I have to say especially when everybody falls out !

I'm taking a break from UKBF at the moment as it's getting less and less friendly as well as well as being used more and more for pimping for business

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'm taking a break from UKBF at the moment as it's getting less and less friendly as well as well as being used more and more for pimping for business

True.

do any of your customers need leasing?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

True.

do any of your customers need leasing?

Or pimping

 

[barryo]

Clinton, your last post's undeniably true in a number of cases but also applies to many other professions. Not only anecdotally but in almost every business there are examples where unscrupulous and/or lawyers, accountants, investors and/or other so-called professionals will have abused a position of trust or simply provided bad value.

Part of what I do is mentoring and I'm not ashamed to say that I will provide an amount of time initially free, to identify whether or not my services will add value or not. Surely this is simply what other professionals do? Ergo the standard practice of lawyers' initial meeting free. Why should a potential client pay for the proposer to identify whether they can help? Do your new potential clients do that?

 

[barryo]

Ian J,

What's the purpose of your signature text which offers a free service and includes your phone number inviting people to contact you?

Is it "pimping" for business?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck!

 

[HazelC]

Great post @Clinton , totally agree. But it gets even worse.

This 'need' for mentors has resulted in a whole new industry of mentors who have no clue about business whatsoever. Some call themselves mentors, others coaches, but in reality it's the blind leading the blind. I've come across a few recently, and they're akin to the MLM fraudsters selling dreams but delivering nothing.

You missed off 'Gurus' - my personal favourite lol

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Ian J,

What's the purpose of your signature text which offers a free service and includes your phone number inviting people to contact you?

Is it "pimping" for business?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck!

No that's different a signature is OK and we pay money for the link and it enforces that a member and business are genuine

You can be an active member here and gain business without making it obvious that you have an agenda !