Should anyone be allowed to open a business?
- Thread starter Alan
- Start date
I'm not sure this forum is quite the place for your particular form of performance art. While leavened with the odd dash of poor humour, the pervading theme here is business - as one might expect given the name "UK Business Forums".
If your business is indeed performance art, perhaps you can discuss that directly instead of trying to practise it here.
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I think that there is a notion today that starting a business was invented with reality shows such as The Apprentice and Dragons Den. It all has to be terribly complicated involving people in suits discussing gross and nett profit, Ltd companies, holding companies, business valuations, business plans, etc.
In fact many, if not most, successful businesses today were not started by people who knew anything of the above. Some were even started by people who could not even read or write or were not fluent in English. I wonder where those people would be doing now if they had to get a qualification to start their businesses.
In fact many, if not most, successful businesses today were not started by people who knew anything of the above. Some were even started by people who could not even read or write or were not fluent in English. I wonder where those people would be doing now if they had to get a qualification to start their businesses.
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OK I've had my fun on this thread.
So there we are folks, the real question is should anybody be able to offer their skills or services freely, or before being able to offer their skills or services should they satisfy a group of people who are themselves devoid of any humour, personality, social skills or creativity (you know, the things that come in handy when running a business...!) that they are also lacking all of the above.
The poll looks as though it has already been decided.
Bloody Labour voters
So there we are folks, the real question is should anybody be able to offer their skills or services freely, or before being able to offer their skills or services should they satisfy a group of people who are themselves devoid of any humour, personality, social skills or creativity (you know, the things that come in handy when running a business...!) that they are also lacking all of the above.
The poll looks as though it has already been decided.
Bloody Labour voters
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Oh come on Noah, cheer up!
Perhaps rereading the thread will help you to understand.
When you've done that come back and let me give you a hug.
There's nothing to worry about
PS: I see you're copying my art - that's cheating
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ffox
A very entertaining thread. Over 1500 views and 7 pages of response. I posted earlier that there should be no test or qualification for entry into business and that the OP question was the wrong question. On page 4 or 5 I agreed that I didn't know what the question should be.
Following the thread I've had time to consider and read a little.
I'd now say that the right question has already been asked and answered by HMRC -
https://www.ac-accounts.co.uk/reporting-hmrc-every-quarter-go-ahead-2018/
If that is actioned, no sole trader or small limited company will be allowed to continue for long with mounting liabilities and little income.
Following the thread I've had time to consider and read a little.
I'd now say that the right question has already been asked and answered by HMRC -
https://www.ac-accounts.co.uk/reporting-hmrc-every-quarter-go-ahead-2018/
If that is actioned, no sole trader or small limited company will be allowed to continue for long with mounting liabilities and little income.
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OK I've had my fun on this thread.
So there we are folks, the real question is should anybody be able to offer their skills or services freely, or before being able to offer their skills or services should they satisfy a group of people who are themselves devoid of any humour, personality, social skills or creativity (you know, the things that come in handy when running a business...!) that they are also lacking all of the above.
The poll looks as though it has already been decided.
Bloody Labour voters
Easy question to answer. If you intend to gamble with other people’s money then yes there should be procedures in place, at a very basic level having to employ a qualified accountant (not just a bookkeeper as so many do).
If you are using your own money (eg sole trader) then go for it unhindered.
Can’t really see any argument against that?
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I do not agree. I think that Making Tax Digital is taking the p*ss and is severely detrimental to our interests as business owners.
If HMRC, or any other department want to exert new authority and new controls on us - and make no mistake, MTD is a huge power grab - it should be accompanied by significant additional responsibilities falling on that department in respect of quality, service delivery, accountability, oversight etc etc.
And there isn't.
Also, the severity of sanctions imposed on them for non-delivery, poor quality service, mistakes that end up costing us money etc etc should be ramped up to the point where civil servants, even senior ones, are sacked for screwing up. Maybe even jailed.
I do not understand the public's increasing tolerance for draconian new laws/powers to the authorities when that is not accompanied by corresponding extra expectations of our servants in government.
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ffox
Hiya @Clinton
As I pointed out up thread. A long time ago in a land far away (or should that be Once upon a time?) any new UK startup had the joy of a visit from a tax inspector to make sure that proper books were being kept. That was followed, if turnover was sufficient, by another tax inspector calling to make sure that VAT was being accounted for in the right way and then a third would come calling to inspect payroll if there were employees.
Now that was expensive and after much comment, lobbying and protest, such monitoring was discontinued and much money was saved.
There was rejoicing in the town square and no one really cared about the poor redundant tax inspectors.
But, while the teacher was out of the class the naughty little business folk started to let their standards slide and many went to the wall owing lots of bags of gold to the tax man, to Companies House and often to other business folk.
Hence this thread.
The moral is - You have to have rules, the rules must apply to all and the rules must be enforced.
Happy holiday
As I pointed out up thread. A long time ago in a land far away (or should that be Once upon a time?) any new UK startup had the joy of a visit from a tax inspector to make sure that proper books were being kept. That was followed, if turnover was sufficient, by another tax inspector calling to make sure that VAT was being accounted for in the right way and then a third would come calling to inspect payroll if there were employees.
Now that was expensive and after much comment, lobbying and protest, such monitoring was discontinued and much money was saved.
There was rejoicing in the town square and no one really cared about the poor redundant tax inspectors.
But, while the teacher was out of the class the naughty little business folk started to let their standards slide and many went to the wall owing lots of bags of gold to the tax man, to Companies House and often to other business folk.
Hence this thread.
The moral is - You have to have rules, the rules must apply to all and the rules must be enforced.
Happy holiday
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100% agree.
I call it Making Digital Taxing.
Quarterly filings to HMRC, for instance, are going to cost tens of thousands of man hours combined to business owners up and down the country.
The ever-increasing weight of red tape - and a 101 different taxes - imposed on businesses is not only making it onerous for business owners (I'm sitting here this weekend working on all kinds of nonsensical red tape) but naturally has the effect of stifling the economy.
Bureacracy, paper work, never-ending filings and then having to lose a hefty chunk of one's hard-earned income to be handed over to the tens of millions of people who can't be bothered to work or put the minimal level of effort into their work are the order of the day in most European economies and it's no surprise that the GDP per capita in the sclerotic economies of this continent struggle to grow at even 1% per annum.
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You should freely offer your services to the daily mail. The way you rewrote everything I said to suit your own agenda and twisted words that I haven’t even written would be right up their street.
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Yeah, keeping the maximum number of tax inspectors in employment should be every business owner's top priority!
I fully buy the argument that some business owners don't play by the rules, and others don't even know the rules (!) and that this causes losses for the exchequer which you and I have to pick up. No dispute there.
My problem is that MTD is not the answer. It is simply a power grab under the disguise of blah blah, blah.
In another thread I mentioned about taking HMRC on with respect online filing of VAT returns. They fought and fought but eventually caved and have now reverted to sending me paper returns every quarter.
Why did I fight them on this? It's not because I am unable to file online returns but because online returns took a lot of power away from me and put it in the hands of the VAT man.
It was a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, if you registered for online filing:
#1 The VAT man would stop sending you paper notices and would send them to your account's inbox.
#2 When they sent you a notice to your inbox or an email they will assume you have read it.
#3 There was one sign-on and you had a password to log in
etc. (I believe I had about 11 points I raised with them at the time)
Most people don't see the problem with issues like these. I do.
#1 By sending notices to my account inbox you are placing on me a responsibility to check my VAT inbox periodically, at least once a month. I've got enough other responsibilities in addition to running a business, and one of them is being an unpaid skivvy for you and collecting VAT on your behalf. What are you giving me in exchange for taking on a new responsibility? Nothing!?
#2 So it is my responsibility to ensure your emails don't go into junk (or aren't filtered at the server by my ISP!)? I can whitelist you etc but you wouldn't even guarantee me that your emails would come from a particular IP / domain! So there's additional risk for me involving possibly missing one of your emails.
#3 One login means that if I give an employee the task of filing my VAT return they also have access to all my account settings i.e. I've got to reduce my security to make your job easier.
And what are you giving me for all these concessions I'm making, the additional responsibilities I'm taking, the additional risk to my business, the money I'm saving you? Nothing!
I appreciate most business owners don't read all the small print. I do.
And most business owners, even if they do read the small print, assume that because it's HMRC they have to accept. I don't.
Arrogant gits. The power grabs with MTD are even worse than with online filing of VAT.
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ffox
Exactly. I went back and thanked that post in retrospect.
Yippee, after 5 years and 5,000 posts I have actually started a thread that has got mote than a cursory glance, indeed one of the popular threads of recent times. Perhaps I should start offering digital media marketing services
Alan, how much did it cost to get @youngtrepreneur to keep it going?
So far as I'm aware the 'power' is the same as it's always been. You pay your dues or you get fined and charged interest. The only change in recent years has been the method of making the returns. I find on line methods so much easier and more convenient.
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The only change in recent years has been the method of making the returns. I find on line methods so much easier and more convenient.
I started doing online returns in the early days.
Refunds paid to accounts I do not have - bank accounts I had not entered. Refund amounts that were wrong.
All details were entered correctly, details held were in some years found to be wrong. Such as bank accounts 3 years running. In the end I went years with getting a cheque posted out by them instead and doing paper returns.
HMRC were insistent that I must have entered incorrect details. I know I didn't as I copied from bank statement in front of me - and HMRC ended up somehow with sort code and account number different.
Online filing was easier. Convenient for me? No.
Their online records and what I entered (and saved before submitting) were different.
They never accepted the error was at their end. I know and had proof that the data entered was correct in all aspects.
HMRC are not very good at change.
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I think a key question to ask is whether having a deep understanding of some of the things that other contributors of this thread have suggested people should be tested on will actually reduce the chances of a business failing.
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to be AAT qualified, but most accountants make lousy entrepreneurs.
Nor am I saying that it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to have achieved a law degree.
What I feel the suggestion misses are the actual skills required to make a business a success.
These are the skills I previously mentioned; creativity, social skills, etc.
Knowing the difference between gross and net, how to file a VAT return, and stuff like this, while certainly useful, isn't actually knowledge that is more likely to make a business a success.
I'm not saying that it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to be AAT qualified, but most accountants make lousy entrepreneurs.
Nor am I saying that it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to have achieved a law degree.
What I feel the suggestion misses are the actual skills required to make a business a success.
These are the skills I previously mentioned; creativity, social skills, etc.
Knowing the difference between gross and net, how to file a VAT return, and stuff like this, while certainly useful, isn't actually knowledge that is more likely to make a business a success.
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In the land of Mordor, my friend.
Now jokes away — Bulgaria. A very good place to make money but not a very good place to live in.
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ffox
Ah. The dread of change and change inertia in a large organisation.
Back in 1999 (OMG we’re back to once upon a time) I spent a year contracting to Bull IS on a roll out of Windows 95 PCs, Windows file servers and Cisco switch gear for the Inland Revenue. The new network replaced coffin sized Unix servers, fridge sized network hubs and either dumb terminals or Win 3.1 PCs. That was well before the launch of online returns, but it formed part of the same HMRC evolution.
Back in those days a significant percentage of HMRC staff new that the evolution would mean job losses, office closures and possible redundancies. The cuts have actually been more severe than anyone imagined in back then.
Not the best motivated crew then to set about a change process, but it did happen, it did save the tax payer an awful lot of money and it enabled the HMRC to move onto more ambitious changes, such as MTD.
Having said all that, my business (limited company) started in the same year as that rollout, I’ve always been at the forefront of acceptance of HMRC’s online services and I’ve never had any issues. Luck of the draw perhaps.
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Ah, bless!
It's people like you who are part of the problem, people who roll over and accept everything to the insane point where they convince themselves that they haven't given up any rights, haven't taken on any new responsibilities, haven't let the servants become the masters.
It's people like you who are to blame for the massive, convoluted VAT system we have today where many businesses spend thousands of pounds a year in admin costs for the privilege of collecting tax for the VAT man...
...and that's just VAT (the rest of our tax legislation has the dubious distinction of being the world's longest).
Complicated, confusing, convoluted tax laws favour the bureaucrat at the expense of the common man / the small business. And it's passive people like you, who sit back and take all the BS - nay, encourage it, who are partly to blame for the current state of affairs.
Thanks, mate.
If a few more people stood up to be counted, wrote to their MPs to protest about proposed tax changes, actually challenged HMRC's power grabs etc we arguably wouldn't have the convoluted system we have today and small businesses would find it easier to comply with the tax laws and pay their fair share.
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ffox
I've challenged HMRC rulings and practices several times in my business life. Some I've won and some I've lost. But, I've never considered HMRC, or any other public body as my enemy. I do, after all, pay their wages and I expect them to work for me.
Challenging changes that are good for me and reduce HMRC costs I would consider to be a waste of time and energy.
Tax laws become convoluted and complicated for the simple reason that in the past rules have been subject to the creation and exploitation of loop holes. Read the MTD proposals again - they seek to simplify the rules - that would be better don't you think?
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ffox
Speaking as a software developer, business system analyst and engineer, I like to say that the simple system is usually the more robust, so lets reduce the rule set to a minimum.
Sadly, living in the real world, I know that simple rule sets usually only endure so long as there is a will to maintain the ethos of the system they are applied to. In taxation we have an environment where there is an active will to defeat the ethos of the system.
In short, people will pay large amounts to experts to find ways to bend the rules. Stopping up the loopholes leads to complication and confusion.
It doesn't really matter what I believe about the complication of tax laws in the UK, the real world is where I exist and the laws in the real world are the ones I have to deal with.
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Both parties mentioned are unfortunately highly influential idiots.
One party far more influential than the other, and the MPs far more idiotic.
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